There have been many mentions of 'fixes' on BOTP threads...
...the best fixes are probably the ones you never heard about, but...
What are the most notorious fixes that you remember/know of?
Hoping to hear form some older posters who might remember the details, news reports from the time frame, etc.
...what was the first known 'fixed' fight...fixes always by the 'mob'...any independent fixes?...many court convictions?...the most recent documented fix?
...an uglier side of the sport, but still interesting...
Famous 'fixes' in boxing history....
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Sweet Scientist
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 815
- Joined: 13 Oct 2003, 18:19
Some High Suspect Bouts In Boxing History
Some highly suspect bouts in boxing history include:
Terry McGovern vs. Joe Gans 1900
Tony Fuente vs. Fred Fulton 1924
Primo Carnera vs. Bombo Chevalier 1930
Primo Carnera vs. George Godfrey
Billy Fox vs. Jake La Motta 1947
Art Aragon vs. Tommy Campbell
- Chuck Johnston
Terry McGovern vs. Joe Gans 1900
Tony Fuente vs. Fred Fulton 1924
Primo Carnera vs. Bombo Chevalier 1930
Primo Carnera vs. George Godfrey
Billy Fox vs. Jake La Motta 1947
Art Aragon vs. Tommy Campbell
- Chuck Johnston
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robert.snell1
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 1141
- Joined: 16 Oct 2003, 07:56
siki and carpentier
This for me is the one that stands out as it is the most comic of them all as far as i am concerned. poor old George and his camp made the deal with the wrong guy. To say the least Siki was erratic inside and outside of the ring.
it should be pointed out that not all believe it was fixed.
it should be pointed out that not all believe it was fixed.
Hey Chuck and SS are we considering an internal decision such as LaMotta's claim to throw a fight as fixed?
Fixed to me has always meant an outside force intervening. If a fighter confers with no one and then later says they lost on purpose that will always be suspect in my mind. You will never be able to confirm it. Others have claimed LaMotta lost on the level.
Egos being what they are how could we ever really know?
One way to confirm is if a boxer did not literaly confer with anyone but found a willing participant to place money in their behalf against themselves. Or if their are a critical mass of people interviewed that make it obvious the fix was in.
On the reverse side of the scale some of the Carnera fights actually had written contracts of agreement (I have not seen them but I am passing the rumor here on the assumption that others of us have at least heard this claim) If they can ever be discovered I would love it if they found there way to Hall of Fame just for curiousity.
Chucks list represents some fights that qualify for rumor mill style that have high probablilities I suppose. Some I didnt know though.
Fixed to me has always meant an outside force intervening. If a fighter confers with no one and then later says they lost on purpose that will always be suspect in my mind. You will never be able to confirm it. Others have claimed LaMotta lost on the level.
Egos being what they are how could we ever really know?
One way to confirm is if a boxer did not literaly confer with anyone but found a willing participant to place money in their behalf against themselves. Or if their are a critical mass of people interviewed that make it obvious the fix was in.
On the reverse side of the scale some of the Carnera fights actually had written contracts of agreement (I have not seen them but I am passing the rumor here on the assumption that others of us have at least heard this claim) If they can ever be discovered I would love it if they found there way to Hall of Fame just for curiousity.
Chucks list represents some fights that qualify for rumor mill style that have high probablilities I suppose. Some I didnt know though.
Liston V Clay
Some are more obvious than others in so much as a fighter has admitted it awhile later .
Graziano was said to have had quite a few, and one opponent claimed so years later.
But none looked such a tank job as Liston V Clay.
If Clay knew about it who`s to say, the legend that Ali has been built into now makes finding out the truth almost impossible.
Liston was mixed up with various scary people and the people Clay associated with then were as scary as they came.
But can you think of a fight that is known to have been fixed looking more fixed than the Liston v Clay
Some are more obvious than others in so much as a fighter has admitted it awhile later .
Graziano was said to have had quite a few, and one opponent claimed so years later.
But none looked such a tank job as Liston V Clay.
If Clay knew about it who`s to say, the legend that Ali has been built into now makes finding out the truth almost impossible.
Liston was mixed up with various scary people and the people Clay associated with then were as scary as they came.
But can you think of a fight that is known to have been fixed looking more fixed than the Liston v Clay
Re: Fixed Fights
Notice that I said that I listed highly suspect fights. In regards
to the Art Aragon vs. Tommy Campbell bout, Aragon was a
big drawing card in Los Angeles and Campbell was a black
lightweight contender. Campbell knocked down Aragon
in the bout, but seemed to back away afterwards and
didn't press his advantage.
During the middle 1950s, there was an investigation of
boxing in California by the Cox Commission. There
were allegations that the Olympic Auditorium
matchmaker, Babe McCoy, was fixing bouts and
managing fighters (a no-no for a matchmaker in
California). Campbell testified about his bout with
Aragon at a hearing of the Cox Commission. McCoy,
who was the driving force at the Olympic for fourteen
years, was banned for life as a result of the findings
of the Cox Commission.
- Chuck Johnston
to the Art Aragon vs. Tommy Campbell bout, Aragon was a
big drawing card in Los Angeles and Campbell was a black
lightweight contender. Campbell knocked down Aragon
in the bout, but seemed to back away afterwards and
didn't press his advantage.
During the middle 1950s, there was an investigation of
boxing in California by the Cox Commission. There
were allegations that the Olympic Auditorium
matchmaker, Babe McCoy, was fixing bouts and
managing fighters (a no-no for a matchmaker in
California). Campbell testified about his bout with
Aragon at a hearing of the Cox Commission. McCoy,
who was the driving force at the Olympic for fourteen
years, was banned for life as a result of the findings
of the Cox Commission.
- Chuck Johnston
-
Sweet Scientist
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 815
- Joined: 13 Oct 2003, 18:19
So...if I'm understanding the posts here....there aren't any 'documented, corraborated' examples of fixes that can be discussed...most of it is speculation and hearsay...
The Carnera rumors, which I heard before, are very believable and stereotypical..(An Italian fighter associated with other Italian gangster types in the 1930's)...
But are there no actual examples of a fix plan...followed through with an end game...followed by a post fight unraveling of the whole thing?
Has anyone ever been convicted of fixing a fight?
The Carnera rumors, which I heard before, are very believable and stereotypical..(An Italian fighter associated with other Italian gangster types in the 1930's)...
But are there no actual examples of a fix plan...followed through with an end game...followed by a post fight unraveling of the whole thing?
Has anyone ever been convicted of fixing a fight?
Primo Carnera vs. Bombo Chevalier
Bombo Chevalier was a black clubfighter from Northern
California who fought Primo Carnera in Emeryville in
1930. At the time, Carnera was making a tour of
the United States, fighting very "soft" opposition in
front of big crowds.
In the fight with Chevalier, Carnera had trouble with
his determined opponent. Later in the fight, Frank
Churchill, Carnera's representative in the West,
was seen visiting Chevalier's corner. Although
Chevalier appeared to be unhurt and continued
to fight, one of his cornermen threw in the towel
during the sixth round. As a result, the referee
stopped the bout and ruled that Carnera was the
winner.
The bout left such a bad oder that Carnera wasn't
permitted to fight in California again. Moreover,
a number of people connected with Carnera and
the towel throwing cornerman, Bob Perry, were
banned in the state. As boxing historians know,
Frank Churchill was noted for managing a large
stable that included a number of top Filipino fighters
and being a pioneer boxing promoter in the Philippines.
Bob Perry was a bald-headed man who had a number
of small roles in the movies. He can be seen in the
screwball comedy classic, MY MAN GODFREY.
- Chuck Johnston
- Chuck Johnston
California who fought Primo Carnera in Emeryville in
1930. At the time, Carnera was making a tour of
the United States, fighting very "soft" opposition in
front of big crowds.
In the fight with Chevalier, Carnera had trouble with
his determined opponent. Later in the fight, Frank
Churchill, Carnera's representative in the West,
was seen visiting Chevalier's corner. Although
Chevalier appeared to be unhurt and continued
to fight, one of his cornermen threw in the towel
during the sixth round. As a result, the referee
stopped the bout and ruled that Carnera was the
winner.
The bout left such a bad oder that Carnera wasn't
permitted to fight in California again. Moreover,
a number of people connected with Carnera and
the towel throwing cornerman, Bob Perry, were
banned in the state. As boxing historians know,
Frank Churchill was noted for managing a large
stable that included a number of top Filipino fighters
and being a pioneer boxing promoter in the Philippines.
Bob Perry was a bald-headed man who had a number
of small roles in the movies. He can be seen in the
screwball comedy classic, MY MAN GODFREY.
- Chuck Johnston
- Chuck Johnston
-
Sweet Scientist
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 815
- Joined: 13 Oct 2003, 18:19
Re: Fixed Fights
Now this is very interesting, much closer to what I expected to find...Chuck1052 wrote:
During the middle 1950s, there was an investigation of
boxing in California by the Cox Commission. There
were allegations that the Olympic Auditorium
matchmaker, Babe McCoy, was fixing bouts and
managing fighters (a no-no for a matchmaker in
California). Campbell testified about his bout with
Aragon at a hearing of the Cox Commission. McCoy,
who was the driving force at the Olympic for fourteen
years, was banned for life as a result of the findings
of the Cox Commission.
- Chuck Johnston
The LaMotta-Fox fix is about as documented as youd want to get. To suggest that LaMotta said he threw the fight in order to save face is pure lunacy. He had a lot more to lose by admitting that, in front of a senate committee no less, (infinitely more) than he did to gain.
As for Carnera's fixes, well, his original manager published a list of the fixed fights that he Carnera took part in which can be found in the back of both his book and "Man Mountain" the bio of Carnera published in the late 90's. Keep in mind that this list is only current to the end of the managers tenure with Carnera which was just short of his title winning victory over Sharkey.
As for Carnera's fixes, well, his original manager published a list of the fixed fights that he Carnera took part in which can be found in the back of both his book and "Man Mountain" the bio of Carnera published in the late 90's. Keep in mind that this list is only current to the end of the managers tenure with Carnera which was just short of his title winning victory over Sharkey.
I would agree but LaMotta didnt exactly decide to throw the fight in the heat of the moment. He was told by the mob that if he threw the fight he would get a title shot and a cash payoff. He turned down the cash and just asked for the title shot. Thats about as fixed as fixed gets. I have the tape of LaMotta testifying before the Kefauver committee, admitting to the dive. He isnt bragging or trying to save face. Hes quite obviously embarrassed by the situation and looks more upset about his decision than anyone in the room. Also testifying is Ike Williams who admits he was offered a bribe to lose to Gavilan. He goes on to say that he turned down the bribe, lost the fight anyway, and if I remember correctly he lost his purse as well (betting or something, I cant remember) he closes by saying he wished he had taken the bribe.
If I remember correctly Ike Williams said in an interview that he was managed,probably under the table,by the infamous mob figure Blinky Palermo.I'd say that guarentees Ike was invloved in a fix or two.klompton wrote:I would agree but LaMotta didnt exactly decide to throw the fight in the heat of the moment. He was told by the mob that if he threw the fight he would get a title shot and a cash payoff. He turned down the cash and just asked for the title shot. Thats about as fixed as fixed gets. I have the tape of LaMotta testifying before the Kefauver committee, admitting to the dive. He isnt bragging or trying to save face. Hes quite obviously embarrassed by the situation and looks more upset about his decision than anyone in the room. Also testifying is Ike Williams who admits he was offered a bribe to lose to Gavilan. He goes on to say that he turned down the bribe, lost the fight anyway, and if I remember correctly he lost his purse as well (betting or something, I cant remember) he closes by saying he wished he had taken the bribe.
..yeah...ike williams said he was pissed because he didn't tank it and lost anyway. he lost to gavilan two in a row after decisioning him about a year earlier....so i don't know which of the two losses he's referring to. i know the first lost was very close..don't remember about the second.
a word here about ike. he knocked gavilan down in the first fight....and he was just a lightweight and gavilan had a chin as hard as a fight manager's heart. the only other guy to do that was the hard socking welter carmen basilio. basilio himself fought williams when ike was wel past his prime, and always said he was kind of glad it wasn't when ike was at his peak....called him one of the hardest punchers he ever faced...and still had flashes of his boxing skills.
buzzy....i'm just not clear in what you're looking for as a fix....don't understand what an "internal" tank job is. try again...because i'm really interested.
re: lamotta fox... the reporters who covered that fight were restrained only by libel laws in coming right out and saying it was a tank-o. would love to see it as it must have looked really bad. all i know is jake just sat on the middle strand and let fox hit him until the referee stopped it. saw some still picures in ring magazine. an odd kind of pride.....he'd tank it (to get his shot at the middle title)...but was too proud to go down....as he said no fighter could put him on the floor.
a word here about ike. he knocked gavilan down in the first fight....and he was just a lightweight and gavilan had a chin as hard as a fight manager's heart. the only other guy to do that was the hard socking welter carmen basilio. basilio himself fought williams when ike was wel past his prime, and always said he was kind of glad it wasn't when ike was at his peak....called him one of the hardest punchers he ever faced...and still had flashes of his boxing skills.
buzzy....i'm just not clear in what you're looking for as a fix....don't understand what an "internal" tank job is. try again...because i'm really interested.
re: lamotta fox... the reporters who covered that fight were restrained only by libel laws in coming right out and saying it was a tank-o. would love to see it as it must have looked really bad. all i know is jake just sat on the middle strand and let fox hit him until the referee stopped it. saw some still picures in ring magazine. an odd kind of pride.....he'd tank it (to get his shot at the middle title)...but was too proud to go down....as he said no fighter could put him on the floor.
Yes I have a brief tape of that to and I agree with your comments on Lamottas reaction.klompton wrote:I have the tape of LaMotta testifying before the Kefauver committee, admitting to the dive. He isnt bragging or trying to save face. Hes quite obviously embarrassed by the situation and looks more upset about his decision than anyone in the room.
Also at one point (going from memory here) the voice off camera says to Jake refering to 'The Mob' "These gentlemen are very intimidating arn't they?"
Jake says something like "They don't scare me!....there a bunch of pigs....I ain't scared of nobody".
Actually I'm talking about a thrown fight not a fix. But will we ever really know? When McCall has a breakdown or Tyson bites an ear are we seeing some kind of pride combined with exploitation? In which case it is both thrown and fixed even if the fighter is the only one in on it.
I'm not suggesting either of those are examples of which I speak.
so my "internal" is reffering to a decision the fighter himself makes without taking anyone else into confidence.
I have heard AC say he has never taken a dive or has never been part of a fixed fight , on the other hand he has said there are times when he was just "not going to win" or "winning was not going to happen". I have taken that to mean something other than referring to his opponents superior skills.
As someone said the good fixes are the ones we don't know about. But when a good fighter has a breakdown you have to wonder was it purely and only a breakdown mentally but moraly as well.
Some good money gets made on longshots or determined outcomes. Wish I could get in on a sure thing or two.
I'm not suggesting either of those are examples of which I speak.
so my "internal" is reffering to a decision the fighter himself makes without taking anyone else into confidence.
I have heard AC say he has never taken a dive or has never been part of a fixed fight , on the other hand he has said there are times when he was just "not going to win" or "winning was not going to happen". I have taken that to mean something other than referring to his opponents superior skills.
As someone said the good fixes are the ones we don't know about. But when a good fighter has a breakdown you have to wonder was it purely and only a breakdown mentally but moraly as well.
Some good money gets made on longshots or determined outcomes. Wish I could get in on a sure thing or two.
Liston also said that "he never lost a fight he didn't throw" before he died. I think that is the truth.tonyevs wrote:Liston V Clay
Some are more obvious than others in so much as a fighter has admitted it awhile later .
Graziano was said to have had quite a few, and one opponent claimed so years later.
But none looked such a tank job as Liston V Clay.
If Clay knew about it who`s to say, the legend that Ali has been built into now makes finding out the truth almost impossible.
Liston was mixed up with various scary people and the people Clay associated with then were as scary as they came.
But can you think of a fight that is known to have been fixed looking more fixed than the Liston v Clay :wink:
..if liston was including his fight with leotis martin as one in which he took a dive, he sure did a convincing job of it. first, he knocks martin down in an early round with a legitimate punch...and then nearing the end of the fight he gets his nose bloodied up and smeared all over his face and has a hard time breathing... comes out for the next round gets knocked flat with a beauty of a punch, in a knockdown so brutal that the announcer (cosell?) apologizes for showing it over a few times on instant replay.
buzzy...i suppose a fighter who felt he was getting his butt kicked and decided to lay down even though he wasn't knocked out could be an internal "fix"...though i wouldn't think of it in those terms. as for a fighter deciding to tank it for reasons of his own without anyone in his corner or management knowing....i'm afraid that deceiving the gentlemen who work in that capacity...let's say especially in the days when mr. carbo was behind the scenes...would be found laying down permanently in his hotel room or in an alley nearby.
now..for a fighter going to the canvas to avoid a pummeling....i don't know if there are any tapes of michael spinks vs. gerry cooney...but i saw that one on a very big screen and mister cooney, who was getting much the worst of it, slid down gently and with great poise , not to rise again until the referee finished his count. a dive or fix? no....just a fighter who had enough and was in no disposition to receive more.
buzzy...i suppose a fighter who felt he was getting his butt kicked and decided to lay down even though he wasn't knocked out could be an internal "fix"...though i wouldn't think of it in those terms. as for a fighter deciding to tank it for reasons of his own without anyone in his corner or management knowing....i'm afraid that deceiving the gentlemen who work in that capacity...let's say especially in the days when mr. carbo was behind the scenes...would be found laying down permanently in his hotel room or in an alley nearby.
now..for a fighter going to the canvas to avoid a pummeling....i don't know if there are any tapes of michael spinks vs. gerry cooney...but i saw that one on a very big screen and mister cooney, who was getting much the worst of it, slid down gently and with great poise , not to rise again until the referee finished his count. a dive or fix? no....just a fighter who had enough and was in no disposition to receive more.
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Sweet Scientist
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 13 Oct 2003, 18:19
Boy, I sure don't...zslayton wrote:Liston also said that "he never lost a fight he didn't throw" before he died. I think that is the truth.tonyevs wrote:Liston V Clay
Some are more obvious than others in so much as a fighter has admitted it awhile later .
Graziano was said to have had quite a few, and one opponent claimed so years later.
But none looked such a tank job as Liston V Clay.
If Clay knew about it who`s to say, the legend that Ali has been built into now makes finding out the truth almost impossible.
Liston was mixed up with various scary people and the people Clay associated with then were as scary as they came.
But can you think of a fight that is known to have been fixed looking more fixed than the Liston v Clay
Leotis Martin KTFO'd Liston in no uncertain terms...years earlier, Marty Marshall broke Sonny's jaw...subtract those two...
...now on to Clay-Liston...Liston had 4 fights totaling less that 6 rounds in the over 3 previous years going in to that fight...Liston didn't train as hard as he might have...he was fighting a nobody, a kid he knew he was going to KO early...there was zero doubt in Sonny Liston's mind that he was going to win that fight, just like 43 of 46 ringside press people who picked Liston to win...
...and remember, Liston is getting old...at least 5 years older than his 'bio' indicated...
Now...going into the rematch...an aging Liston has fought 5 fights, totalling less than 12 rounds over the previous almost 4 1/2 years!...
Inactivity and old age played a big role in both of those fights...also, 'styles make fights'...a young Clay had the perfect style for an aging, inactive Sonny Liston...
I'll never really know what happened in the rematch...and neither will anyone else...but as far as the classic 'fix' (if I understand the term correctly)...I'll never believe it...nobody would 'fix' a fight like that, falling down 1 minute into the fight...maybe he gave up, maybe he was on drugs, maybe he got hit in the temple just hard enough to drop him, maybe the Black Muslims scared him, maybe a lot of things...but there has never been one shred of evidence that would hold up to prove a fix in that fight...there's evidence of inactivity and old age, though...