Marquez vs Pacquaio III - Has Marquez really got any chance

[Quixall]

Looking at the forth coming fight between Marquez and Pacquaio, i don't see how Marquez has much chance of winning. I feel that people are putting too much emphasis on their previous encounters, which were at featherweight and super featherweight. Pacquaio has moved up the weights quite easily and has retained his sharpness, whilst seemingly improving his power. Pacquaio has fought at welterweight for some time and had good wins over Cotto and Margarito, he feels comfortable at the weight and looks to be in his prime as a fighter. Marquez seems to me to be a fighter that has seen better days and has only fought once outside of his normal weight range of Lightweight / light-welterweight against Mayweather, which i believe was a catch weight fight. Marquez looked a lot slower at the weight he fought Mayweather and not as solid, his speed decreased and he carries no real power at around 145lbs. Yes, he was fighting Mayweather who has that elusive style and that contributed to Marquez looking clumsy at the higher weight, but i think that ultimately Marquez cannot operate effectively above 140lbs. There is the belief that Marquez is Pacquaio's nemisis and that his style create's problems for Pacquaio and i go along with that opinion at the lower weight classes, but i think at 144lbs (catch weight) for this fight, Marquez will lose the edge in speed and timing and that Pacqauio's punch power will have an effect in this fight. Pacquaio is in his prime, he has improved as a fighter, he looks natural at welterweight, retains his speed and has the increased power and i think it will prove too much for a declining Marquez who will struggle at the higher weight to retain the same attributes that once gave Pacquaio so many problems. Still be an interesting fight, but i see Pacqauio beating Marquez by a late stoppage or unanimous decision.

What do you guys think ?

[LeedsLad]

Marquez can definitely win this fight.

I don't think he will mind.

He's easily a better fighter than anyone that Pacquiao has faced since their second fight back in 2008, and actually has attributes to offset Pacquiao's offense, which nobody else has ever looked like doing, apart from Cotto in isolated spells.

[Quixall]

Marquez can definitely win this fight.

I don't think he will mind.

He's easily a better fighter than anyone that Pacquiao has faced since their second fight back in 2008, and actually has attributes to offset Pacquiao's offense, which nobody else has ever looked like doing, apart from Cotto in isolated spells.

But i think at the higher weight class (144lbs) Marquez will be less affective. I don't think he will be as sharp, he will not carry any power at the weight and is facing a guy who looks natural at the weight, punchers a lot harder and retains all his speed. I do think that Marquez has the skill sets to unbalance Pacquaio, but not at this higher weight. I also think that Pacquaio's power will be the main factor in this fight and i think it will suprise Marquez and unsettle him, as Pacquaio punches a lot harder than when he was fighting at feathweweight or super-featherweight, when they last fought.

[Datsue]

Age & wear & tear, not sheer weight, will decide this. Look at Márquez's fight-night weights for his last three fights.

Besides, I do not believe that Pac is hitting harder. He's setting himself so he's hitting these big guys completely flush. At the lighter weights he didn't have the opportunity to do this because his targets were moving too quickly. Against slow-moving welters he looks like he's in the fvcking Matrix 'cos he can slip, shimmy & set himself to get in a bomb, & 'cos his opponents cannot get out the way (& they square up more, because everyone he's met since 2008 has been on the whole less defensively adroit & technically adept than the guys he fought at super-feather etc) it lands flusher than flush. He also doesn't rush himself so much, so that more punches have more on them, if you see what I mean. But actually "hitting harder", shot-for-shot? No. Don't believe it.

Also, my man-love is being sorely tested by your lack of confidence, bordering on disrespect. In my bones, I can sense, I can feel... Over the horizon... The return of the "Highly Official Come On Juan Manuel Márquez Mega-Thread"... Soon...

Wait till I get twenty minutes spare, I tells ya... I'll make a compelling case for Dinamita. Or at least, out myself as queer for the little Mexican fella. Again, like.

[Quixall]

Age & wear & tear, not sheer weight, will decide this. Look at Márquez's fight-night weights for his last three fights.

Besides, I do not believe that Pac is hitting harder. He's setting himself so he's hitting these big guys completely flush. At the lighter weights he didn't have the opportunity to do this because his targets were moving too quickly. Against slow-moving welters he looks like he's in the fvcking Matrix 'cos he can slip, shimmy & set himself to get in a bomb, & 'cos his opponents cannot get out the way (& they square up more, because everyone he's met since 2008 has been on the whole less defensively adroit & technically adept than the guys he fought at super-feather etc) it lands flusher than flush. He also doesn't rush himself so much, so that more punches have more on them, if you see what I mean. But actually "hitting harder", shot-for-shot? No. Don't believe it.

Also, my man-love is being sorely tested by your lack of confidence, bordering on disrespect. In my bones, I can sense, I can feel... Over the horizon... The return of the "Highly Official Come On Juan Manuel Márquez Mega-Thread"... Soon...

Wait till I get twenty minutes spare, I tells ya... I'll make a compelling case for Dinamita. Or at least, out myself as queer for the little Mexican fella. Again, like.

It has nothing to do with disrespect fella. I just say it as i see it and everyone has an opinion and i feel that Marquez has seen better days as he approaches 37 years of age. I do think that Pacqauio is hitting harder than he did, although there is some merit in you saying that his opponents are not as agile as was the case when Pac was down at featherweight et al. I also think that the likes of Cotto and Margarito thought that they could bulldoze Pacqauio because of the size difference and fought on the front foot, untill they too realised that he carried more power than they envisaged and had retained his speed aswell. I think you will find that Marquez will be out gunned in this fight, Pacquaio will have too much power and speed for him.

[Datsue]

I was being tongue-in-cheek with the "disrespect" thing, Q.

[Quixall]

I was being tongue-in-cheek with the "disrespect" thing, Q.

In all honesty i began to realise that once i had written my reply

[LeedsLad]

I'm not sure Pacquiao is that much better than he was in 2008.

He was probably underrated back then, and overrated now.

The most impressive performance since then was against Cotto, all the other wins have some kind of ???? over them.

Diaz - not that good
DLH - drained, old
Hatton - mentally done since Dec 2007, past it
Clottey - don't even go there
Margarito - tight at weight, has had plenty of beatings
Mosley - went running for the hills

To do what he's done and beat those guys is impressive, but upon closer examination there are questions to be raised.

His record since the 2nd Marquez fight isn't much better than JMM's - stoppage wins over Casamayor, Diaz and Katsidis - plus a clear decision over Diaz is nice work.

[Quixall]

I'm not sure Pacquiao is that much better than he was in 2008.

He was probably underrated back then, and overrated now.

The most impressive performance since then was against Cotto, all the other wins have some kind of ???? over them.

Diaz - not that good
DLH - drained, old
Hatton - mentally done since Dec 2007, past it
Clottey - don't even go there
Margarito - tight at weight, has had plenty of beatings
Mosley - went running for the hills

To do what he's done and beat those guys is impressive, but upon closer examination there are questions to be raised.

His record since the 2nd Marquez fight isn't much better than JMM's - stoppage wins over Casamayor, Diaz and Katsidis - plus a clear decision over Diaz is nice work.

I have posted something similar before and agree with you about Pac's opponents in recent years, however i would give a little more credit to him for beating Margarito. But all of that aside, i feel that he will be too much for Marquez at this weight and at this stage in their careers. I just don't think that there will be a third fight reminiscent of the first two fights

[Roars Like Me]

Has he retained his sharpness is the question though?

Isn't there a reasoning that moving up has slowed him down and he gets hit more often?

[Quixall]

Has he retained his sharpness is the question though?

Isn't there a reasoning that moving up has slowed him down and he gets hit more often?

I think that Manny is a guy who can get hit easily, but i don't think he has been hit really easily in his last few fights. Put it this way, if anyone will be getting hit on a regular basis in this fight, it will be Marquez !!

[Quixall]

Hatton - mentally done since Dec 2007, past it

Hatton was coming off a win against the number one challenger in his division, to say he was mentally done post Mayweather is unfair on him and Pacqauio.

Agreed...........

He looked very sharp against Malignaggi, when Malignaggi was roughly still in the ball park, so to speak

[madfann]

I'd personally like to see Pacquiao face new opponents, rather than keep going against Marquez that has now been in decline.

Found a spot to win gloves signed by both fighters, as HBO usually offers.

You can sign up here: http://www.terra.com/deportes/glove-pacquiao-marquez/

[Final round]

He certainly has a chance Q, he knows how to combat Manny's style more than anyone but for me it's how comfortable he looks at that weight on fight night. Is he going to be noticeably slower at the weight?
He's looking pretty powerful here dated 2nd of October,
http://youtu.be/RKeetV6EL88

[LeedsLad]

I'm a Hatton fan, but Paulie was made for him really.

For all his supposed slickness he got hit a hell of a lot and had no offense to speak of, other than his jab.

Pacquiao blasting him out in 2 was impressive, but realistically anything less than a mid round stoppage wasn't really good enough from Manny.

[Quixall]

He certainly has a chance Q, he knows how to combat Manny's style more than anyone but for me it's how comfortable he looks at that weight on fight night. Is he going to be noticeably slower at the weight?
He's looking pretty powerful here dated 2nd of October,
http://youtu.be/RKeetV6EL88

That's essentially the crux of my argument............

Yes, Marquez has the style to fustrate Pacquaio and be effective, but not at this weight.

[maltesecharlie]

Think Pacquaio will win but this will be a proper fight, the first one on primetime that I will be paying for.

[Jon Saxon]

Marquez is obsessed with PacMan, this could be his last great fight.


Don't rule him out.

[Final round]

He certainly has a chance Q, he knows how to combat Manny's style more than anyone but for me it's how comfortable he looks at that weight on fight night. Is he going to be noticeably slower at the weight?
He's looking pretty powerful here dated 2nd of October,
http://youtu.be/RKeetV6EL88

That's essentially the crux of my argument............

Yes, Marquez has the style to fustrate Pacquaio and be effective, but not at this weight.

I think you're right about Marquez looking shop-worn he looked like he'd lost a tad in pace against Diaz II and he had to go to the trenches against Katsidis and the last time I saw Pac get some real like for like was Cotto first three rounds.

[Quixall]

Marquez is obsessed with PacMan, this could be his last great fight.


Don't rule him out.

I don't think you can ever rule anyone completely out in boxing Jon..............

However, the themes that i touch upon in the thread are why, obsessed or not, Marquez will struggle to have any impact in this fight.

[Quixall]

He certainly has a chance Q, he knows how to combat Manny's style more than anyone but for me it's how comfortable he looks at that weight on fight night. Is he going to be noticeably slower at the weight?
He's looking pretty powerful here dated 2nd of October,
http://youtu.be/RKeetV6EL88

That's essentially the crux of my argument............

Yes, Marquez has the style to fustrate Pacquaio and be effective, but not at this weight.

I think you're right about Marquez looking shop-worn he looked like he'd lost a tad in pace against Diaz II and he had to go to the trenches against Katsidis and the last time I saw Pac get some real like for like was Cotto first three rounds.

In that video Marquez looks old and he also looks a little flabby. It's the wrong weight and he has declined as a fighter IMO where as Pacquaio is comfortable at the weight and still retains his skills, they haven't diminished.

[LeedsLad]

There's no doubt that Marquez has lost a step, it's my biggest worry for him in this fight.

But Pacquiao has looked a tad slower since the Cotto fight too, Mosley was able to make him miss with the left hand, and he's no better in defence than Marquez.

I suppose his willingness to punch with Manny and desire to win might get him knocked out in this fight, but hey-ho, rather that than any more ''let's be friends'' crap. By all means be respectful before and after the fight, but during it you want two guys giving their all.

I wouldn't read too much into the Katsidis fight, it was a career best performance from the Aussie, though Marquez used his strengths against him to get him out of there late.

As a Marquez fan I wouldn't use the weight as a potential excuse for defeat. I wanted this fight, it's here and I intend to enjoy it

[Quixall]

There's no doubt that Marquez has lost a step, it's my biggest worry for him in this fight.

But Pacquiao has looked a tad slower since the Cotto fight too, Mosley was able to make him miss with the left hand, and he's no better in defence than Marquez.

I suppose his willingness to punch with Manny and desire to win might get him knocked out in this fight, but hey-ho, rather that than any more ''let's be friends'' crap. By all means be respectful before and after the fight, but during it you want two guys giving their all.

I wouldn't read too much into the Katsidis fight, it was a career best performance from the Aussie, though Marquez used his strengths against him to get him out of there late.

As a Marquez fan I wouldn't use the weight as a potential excuse for defeat. I wanted this fight, it's here and I intend to enjoy it

I personally would have liked to have seen this fight before Marquez fought Mayweather. I think that age has caught up with Marquez the same way it caught up with Shane after his win over Margarito. I don't think you will get much "softly softly" with this fight because of the history between them, particularly with both fights being very close. Pacquaio will want a decisive win and Marquez still thinks he was cheated and wants to equal the scores, so rest assured that it could descend, at times anyway, into a brutal war.

[Final round]

That's essentially the crux of my argument............

Yes, Marquez has the style to fustrate Pacquaio and be effective, but not at this weight.

I think you're right about Marquez looking shop-worn he looked like he'd lost a tad in pace against Diaz II and he had to go to the trenches against Katsidis and the last time I saw Pac get some real like for like was Cotto first three rounds.

In that video Marquez looks old and he also looks a little flabby. It's the wrong weight and he has declined as a fighter IMO where as Pacquaio is comfortable at the weight and still retains his skills, they haven't diminished.

I wouldn't say flabby I thought he looked worse against Floyd imo

There's no doubt that Marquez has lost a step, it's my biggest worry for him in this fight.

But Pacquiao has looked a tad slower since the Cotto fight too, Mosley was able to make him miss with the left hand, and he's no better in defence than Marquez.

I suppose his willingness to punch with Manny and desire to win might get him knocked out in this fight, but hey-ho, rather that than any more ''let's be friends'' crap. By all means be respectful before and after the fight, but during it you want two guys giving their all.

I wouldn't read too much into the Katsidis fight, it was a career best performance from the Aussie, though Marquez used his strengths against him to get him out of there late.

As a Marquez fan I wouldn't use the weight as a potential excuse for defeat. I wanted this fight, it's here and I intend to enjoy it

They'll be no tapping of the gloves every round from Marquez , thank god. The machismo is going to be all out in display from both fighters.

Agree I'm glad to the fight is happening but Pacquiao being the fresher of the two IMO I see a stoppage in the 8th or 9th

[Final round]

£14.95!! :x