James Toney Vs Rocky Marciano

[Goodnight, Irene]

Youre right, comparing them WAS out of line. I withdraw it.

Willard could actually punch.

[keithmoonhangover]

Youre right, comparing them WAS out of line. I withdraw it.

Willard could actually punch.

Willard 57% KO's

Vitali 88% KO's

Hmmm.

[Goodnight, Irene]

You never disappoint, Keith...ever D

[keithmoonhangover]

You never disappoint, Keith...ever D

No worries. I'm glad I could educate you on this matter.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Youre right, comparing them WAS out of line. I withdraw it.

Willard could actually punch.

Willard 57% KO's

Vitali 88% KO's

Hmmm.

Wow, you're like the 5th poster in the last day I've seen crank out KO% like it's relevant. It's a plague on sanity.

Hector camacho 43% KO's
Ike Williams 39% KO's

If you want to use a percentage, use the percentage of tough opponents. I wont say Willard was a massive puncher, but Vitali most certainly isn't either. Average at best for big Klit.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I wouldn't use it in any argument. If that is all you have, you're talking out of your depth.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I wouldn't use it in any argument. If that is all you have, you're talking out of your depth.

As I said, stats can be used as a launch pad for discussions over the validity of them, placing them into context and what use of them means. Punch stats for example. People look at the overall figure without taking into account accuracy. Some use it as a the sole measure but as the man said, "This is boxing, not counting."

If they're all you have then, yes, you'll look bad. If you refuse to even discuss them then it won't be argument, it will one person making points, however badly, and the other going, "La, la, la, you are talking but I can't hear you. My fingers are in my ears. La, la, la."

One person will be wrong, the other a child. Probably not the best look for either.

I understood what you meant, looking at someones record isn't much of a launchpad for anything. That's the same kind of launch pad as mayweather is undefeated so he is the greatest fighter ever.

Punch stats are at least a good gauge of how active a fighter is. But I despise the way those stats are used to score fights. Boxing is more about your eyes than a calculator or statistics.

As for the bizarre ending of the post. It isn't anything to discuss. Anyone that thinks KO percentage tells you who punched harder is unlikely to come with something valid behind it. I'd rather not waste my time in that discussion.

[keithmoonhangover]

Youre right, comparing them WAS out of line. I withdraw it.

Willard could actually punch.

Willard 57% KO's

Vitali 88% KO's

Hmmm.

Wow, you're like the 5th poster in the last day I've seen crank out KO% like it's relevant. It's a plague on sanity.

Hector camacho 43% KO's
Ike Williams 39% KO's

If you want to use a percentage, use the percentage of tough opponents. I wont say Willard was a massive puncher, but Vitali most certainly isn't either. Average at best for big Klit.

If you don't use stats, then you use opinion. You think he's an average puncher - I don't.

Saad, do you honestly think Willard hit harder than Vitali Klitschko.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I never said he did, I'd call that a wash. If you think that KO% is a factual representation of power than I don't know what to tell you. That would be the silliest thing I've ever heard.

Do you honestly believe that Hector Camacho punched harder than Ike Williams?

I got news for you, most of it is opinion. But using a useless stat as the basis for one is either lazy or stupid.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Is that even a serious question?

Its one thing to argue Vitali is SO much better than Willard --- quite another to claim Vitali is a better puncher. There is NO credibility to that. Zip. Which is why that pathetic KO % angle is probably your best bet.

If you can stay awake through it, watch Vitali swing for the fences against a MUMMIFIED SHANNON BRIGGS, land everything he throws, and still fail to score so much as a knockdown.

He landed ten times the punches Rahman did on Lewis and sent him nowhere. The guy aint even close to being a real puncher.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Rahman definitely punched harder than Vitali.

[keithmoonhangover]

I never said he did, I'd call that a wash. If you think that KO% is a factual representation of power than I don't know what to tell you. That would be the silliest thing I've ever heard.

Do you honestly believe that Hector Camacho punched harder than Ike Williams?

I got news for you, most of it is opinion. But using a useless stat as the basis for one is either lazy or stupid.

I didn't say Camacho hit harder. I didn't even say that the stats proved Vitali hit harder than Jess Willard, I just put them up there because I couldn't be arsed to argue with Irene. If you think Vitali doesn't hit hard, then so be it.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I never said he did, I'd call that a wash. If you think that KO% is a factual representation of power than I don't know what to tell you. That would be the silliest thing I've ever heard.

Do you honestly believe that Hector Camacho punched harder than Ike Williams?

I got news for you, most of it is opinion. But using a useless stat as the basis for one is either lazy or stupid.

I didn't say Camacho hit harder. I didn't even say that the stats proved Vitali hit harder than Jess Willard, I just put them up there because I couldn't be arsed to argue with Irene. If you think Vitali doesn't hit hard, then so be it.

So you put them up for no reason at all and are still carrying on? Good for you Keith.

Vitali has some sting to his punches, he isn't feather fisted. But he definitely isn't a big banger. That is an absolute fact. His brother has huge power.

[keithmoonhangover]

Is that even a serious question?

Its one thing to argue Vitali is SO much better than Willard --- quite another to claim Vitali is a better puncher. There is NO credibility to that. Zip. Which is why that pathetic KO % angle is probably your best bet.

If you can stay awake through it, watch Vitali swing for the fences against a MUMMIFIED SHANNON BRIGGS, land everything he throws, and still fail to score so much as a knockdown.

He landed ten times the punches Rahman did on Lewis and sent him nowhere. The guy aint even close to being a real puncher.

We were discussing who hits harder.... Willard or Klitschko. If you think Willard hits harder, then that's your opinion.

The difference is that Lewis didn't see the Rahman punch coming, in the same way he didn't see the McCall punch coming. The smae happened to Don Curry against McCallum or Hearns against Barkley.

[keithmoonhangover]

I never said he did, I'd call that a wash. If you think that KO% is a factual representation of power than I don't know what to tell you. That would be the silliest thing I've ever heard.

Do you honestly believe that Hector Camacho punched harder than Ike Williams?

I got news for you, most of it is opinion. But using a useless stat as the basis for one is either lazy or stupid.

I didn't say Camacho hit harder. I didn't even say that the stats proved Vitali hit harder than Jess Willard, I just put them up there because I couldn't be arsed to argue with Irene. If you think Vitali doesn't hit hard, then so be it.

So you put them up for no reason at all and are still carrying on? Good for you Keith.

Vitali has some sting to his punches, he isn't feather fisted. But he definitely isn't a big banger. That is an absolute fact. His brother has huge power.

What are you basing this absolute fact on?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

My eyesight and knowledge of the sport. Huge punchers actually knock guys off their feet.

[keithmoonhangover]

My eyesight and knowledge of the sport. Huge punchers actually knock guys off their feet.

So just your opinion, not actual facts then. Hmmm.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

My eyesight and knowledge of the sport. Huge punchers actually knock guys off their feet.

So just your opinion, not actual facts then. Hmmm.

Like I told you already, most everything on here is opinion. What exactly are you on today? Just bored and looking for an inane argument?

Vitali throws arm punches, especially now. But fine, my opinion on that is highly educated and anybody who disagrees has a much weaker opinion on the matter and nothing but useless statistics to cling to.

[keithmoonhangover]

My eyesight and knowledge of the sport. Huge punchers actually knock guys off their feet.

So just your opinion, not actual facts then. Hmmm.

Like I told you already, most everything on here is opinion. What exactly are you on today? Just bored and looking for an inane argument?

Vitali throws arm punches, especially now. But fine, my opinion on that is highly educated and anybody who disagrees has a much weaker opinion on the matter and nothing but useless statistics to cling to.

You said something was an absolute fact, when the only person using facts was me.

A fact issomething which is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information.

The KO percentages are facts. Your opinion is not a fact.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Exhausting, isnt he? Yet hilarious in equal measure.

Guess what else the KO %s are? Complete red herrings.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Is that even a serious question?

Its one thing to argue Vitali is SO much better than Willard --- quite another to claim Vitali is a better puncher. There is NO credibility to that. Zip. Which is why that pathetic KO % angle is probably your best bet.

If you can stay awake through it, watch Vitali swing for the fences against a MUMMIFIED SHANNON BRIGGS, land everything he throws, and still fail to score so much as a knockdown.

He landed ten times the punches Rahman did on Lewis and sent him nowhere. The guy aint even close to being a real puncher.

We were discussing who hits harder.... Willard or Klitschko. If you think Willard hits harder, then that's your opinion.

The difference is that Lewis didn't see the Rahman punch coming, in the same way he didn't see the McCall punch coming. The smae happened to Don Curry against McCallum or Hearns against Barkley.

The difference is Rahman could punch, Vitali cannot.

Explain the Briggs fight, Keith. I'll wait :)

[SaadOffTheDeck]

So just your opinion, not actual facts then. Hmmm.

Like I told you already, most everything on here is opinion. What exactly are you on today? Just bored and looking for an inane argument?

Vitali throws arm punches, especially now. But fine, my opinion on that is highly educated and anybody who disagrees has a much weaker opinion on the matter and nothing but useless statistics to cling to.

You said something was an absolute fact, when the only person using facts was me.

A fact issomething which is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information.

The KO percentages are facts. Your opinion is not a fact.

They are facts of his record, not his punching power. It's your opinion that he is a big puncher. Wrong as it is. Visual evidence is more factual than your numbers in that regard. The fact of his record was never in dispute, if that's all you have for the debate. You have nothing at all.

It's like saying Boise St is a better Football team than the Saints because they have a better record. Who you beat and how it happens tells more than some silly number. It's amusing that you think otherwise. Is it a fact that Lamar Clark punched harder than either Klitschko, Tyson, Foreman & louis?

[Goodnight, Irene]

If a tree falls in the woods but nobody is there to hear it, Im pretty sure nonetheless Vitali didnt knock it down.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

If a tree falls in the woods but nobody is there to hear it, Im pretty sure nonetheless Vitali didnt knock it down.

LOL, I've never watched a Vitali HL vid, but the array of fat slobs laying on the ropes eating shot after shot without even thinking about going down must be disturbing.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I'm honestly lost bro, not trying to be an asshole. I seriously don't know what you're getting at. Keith isn't a novice to the sport. If I was talking to one I would explain to them that KO percentage means nothing.