That's takin him to school Sci Guy! He's well versed as well. All dude respect to the both of ya. Even when my tangents are loathed.
I'm workin on that A.D.D. thing just about got it whipped too. Why just the other day a bird was flying by when I says to myself........oops damn it there I go again.
Famous 'fixes' in boxing history....
And Liston had a bad drink problem. I also read he lost a lot of motivation for training when the rematch was delayed due to Ali's injury.Sweet Scientist wrote:...and remember, Liston is getting old...at least 5 years older than his 'bio' indicated...
Now...going into the rematch...an aging Liston has fought 5 fights, totalling less than 12 rounds over the previous almost 4 1/2 years!...
Inactivity and old age played a big role in both of those fights...also, 'styles make fights'...a young Clay had the perfect style for an aging, inactive Sonny Liston...
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Sweet Scientist
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 13 Oct 2003, 18:19
...an interesting anecdote I read in Sports Illustrated about 35 years ago...
Ali was in exile...and he ran into Liston at a boxing commision office where they were both trying to get a license to fight...Ali was denied a license, but he talked to Liston briefly...and mentioned that right before the Lewiston fight he was hurt in sparring by Jimmy Ellis...apparently Ellis had bruised Ali's sternum...it was causing Ali pain, and he was worried about getting hit there...he thought about postponing, but thought they might not find another venue after all the trouble finding Lewiston...Liston, when he heard about the sternum said, "if I only knew, if I only knew"...
Ali was in exile...and he ran into Liston at a boxing commision office where they were both trying to get a license to fight...Ali was denied a license, but he talked to Liston briefly...and mentioned that right before the Lewiston fight he was hurt in sparring by Jimmy Ellis...apparently Ellis had bruised Ali's sternum...it was causing Ali pain, and he was worried about getting hit there...he thought about postponing, but thought they might not find another venue after all the trouble finding Lewiston...Liston, when he heard about the sternum said, "if I only knew, if I only knew"...
thrown/fixed fight
"nobody would fix a fight like that-falling down in the 1st minute into the fight"? - Au contraire, mon ami, and in modern times, too. Bruce Seldon dove so hard, he could've tried out for the Olympic diving team. And that phony wobble after he got up.......c'mon. I'm saying Bruce threw the fight.....maybe he was scared of getting his ass beat, who knows.Sweet Scientist wrote:Boy, I sure don't...zslayton wrote:Liston also said that "he never lost a fight he didn't throw" before he died. I think that is the truth.tonyevs wrote:Liston V Clay
Some are more obvious than others in so much as a fighter has admitted it awhile later .
Graziano was said to have had quite a few, and one opponent claimed so years later.
But none looked such a tank job as Liston V Clay.
If Clay knew about it who`s to say, the legend that Ali has been built into now makes finding out the truth almost impossible.
Liston was mixed up with various scary people and the people Clay associated with then were as scary as they came.
But can you think of a fight that is known to have been fixed looking more fixed than the Liston v Clay
Leotis Martin KTFO'd Liston in no uncertain terms...years earlier, Marty Marshall broke Sonny's jaw...subtract those two...
...now on to Clay-Liston...Liston had 4 fights totaling less that 6 rounds in the over 3 previous years going in to that fight...Liston didn't train as hard as he might have...he was fighting a nobody, a kid he knew he was going to KO early...there was zero doubt in Sonny Liston's mind that he was going to win that fight, just like 43 of 46 ringside press people who picked Liston to win...
...and remember, Liston is getting old...at least 5 years older than his 'bio' indicated...
Now...going into the rematch...an aging Liston has fought 5 fights, totalling less than 12 rounds over the previous almost 4 1/2 years!...
Inactivity and old age played a big role in both of those fights...also, 'styles make fights'...a young Clay had the perfect style for an aging, inactive Sonny Liston...
I'll never really know what happened in the rematch...and neither will anyone else...but as far as the classic 'fix' (if I understand the term correctly)...I'll never believe it...nobody would 'fix' a fight like that, falling down 1 minute into the fight...maybe he gave up, maybe he was on drugs, maybe he got hit in the temple just hard enough to drop him, maybe the Black Muslims scared him, maybe a lot of things...but there has never been one shred of evidence that would hold up to prove a fix in that fight...there's evidence of inactivity and old age, though...
...well..i wouldn't call the seldon fight a fix...in the sense that he took dive for gambling or other reasons. he just got scared and quit... and maybe he was scared before the fight and had decided even that early to get out of there.....but that isn't really a fix.
liston? more complex. i think there's no doubt he quit in lewiston....but a fix? again... he may have had his own reasons for not getting up, but they are more mysterious than seldon's.
same with the black rhino. he quit as soon as he could...well, actually sooner if you consider that quitting should look at least a little better..but i wouldn't say fix....and not a dive in the classic sense of that word meaning a fix.....quit ..yes...fix ..no.
liston? more complex. i think there's no doubt he quit in lewiston....but a fix? again... he may have had his own reasons for not getting up, but they are more mysterious than seldon's.
same with the black rhino. he quit as soon as he could...well, actually sooner if you consider that quitting should look at least a little better..but i wouldn't say fix....and not a dive in the classic sense of that word meaning a fix.....quit ..yes...fix ..no.
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thunderfromdownunder
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 15 May 2005, 06:55
