Prime Against Prime...

[Goodnight, Irene]

Which of these change in outcome, and which stay the same?

Holyfield-Foreman
De La Hoya-Chavez (140)
Hatton-Tszyu
Lewis-Tyson
Pryor-Cervantes
Jeffries-Johnson
Tunney-Dempsey
Calzaghe-Hopkins (lets say at 168, Hopkins 2001 vs. Calzaghe 07)

[SaadOffTheDeck]

This will surprise you, but I think Dempsey would have beat Tunney and I'd take Hopkins over Calzaghe. While I wouldn't call any of them a certainty, I'd favor the same winners in the other match ups.

Edit: Actually I like Tyson over Lennox. Lewis had a ton of anxiety facing the watered down version for a little more than a round, Mike thrived on apprehension in his prime.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I see revenge for Foreman, Tyson, Hopkins, and Jeffries.

The rest are really hard to decide.

[BoxBuzz]

Which of these change in outcome, and which stay the same?

Holyfield-Foreman Foreman
De La Hoya-Chavez (140) I don't think this is in the bag for Chavez...I lean to Oscar...I may be alone.
Hatton-Tszyu Tzyu
Lewis-Tyson Lewis
Pryor-Cervantes Cervantes...in a walk away
Jeffries-Johnson I can't/won't call this one
Tunney-Dempsey Dempsey
Calzaghe-Hopkins (lets say at 168, Hopkins 2001 vs. Calzaghe 07) A surprising (to some) unsatisfying draw.

[I Feel Fine]

Prime Foreman clearly, but in another competitive brawl. I'll pick Oscar, but I'm uncertain. Tszyu, probably emphatically. Pryor, less emphatically.

Many would say "Tyson easily" or "Lewis easily" which I think is unfair to both. It would be a very tough fight. That said, I have little hesitance in picking the bigger, better boxing Lewis. Oddly, prime for prime here would probably be Tyson at 21-22 vs. Lewis at 34-35.

Jeffries-Johnson is the toughest, particularly with little footage of Jeffries. Impossible to say for certain, I'll take Jeffries only because he was more consistent, though that hardly guarantees anything.

Dempsey was old, shot, ill and ring rusted in the first fight, and may have won the second fight if not for his mental lapses. No real surprise if Tunney still wins, but I'll pick prime Dempsey.

Ah, Hopkins-Calzaghe. If Calzaghe with a six-seven year age advantage can only manage a close, controversial split decision against Hopkins at 43 (for the record, I agreed with the decision), then the peak Hopkins of 2001 beats Calzaghe by at least an equally close split decision. Hopkins is the better fighter with the better legacy.

[yancey]

This will surprise you, but I think Dempsey would have beat Tunney and I'd take Hopkins over Calzaghe. While I wouldn't call any of them a certainty, I'd favor the same winners in the other match ups.

Edit: Actually I like Tyson over Lennox. Lewis had a ton of anxiety facing the watered down version for a little more than a round, Mike thrived on apprehension in his prime.

"Mike thrived on apprehension in his prime" Saad

Ain't that the truth.

Agree that Tyson reverses in a battle of primes against Lewis.

[dempseyfire]

I like Foreman, Dempsey, Hopkins,and Chavez in a really close fight.

Lewis-Tyson at their absolute peaks . . very tough to choose. But I think Lewis has that extra bit of resolve/skill to survive a very rough early going and get Tyson to go into a shell with the uppercuts. But I can see Lewis just getting caught with a combo at some point and getting the lights shut off as well.

[Ezzard]

Holyfield (too durable for me, he'd take George)
DLH (too big for Chavez in real terms)
Tszyu - I think it's close but his right would be more of an issue.
Lewis (but I see why some pick Tyson, could go either way)
Cervantes
Johnson
Dempsey (very close though)
Calzaghe/Hopkins (it would always be a close fight with the loser claiming he won)

[Goodnight, Irene]

Holyfield (too durable for me, he'd take George)
DLH (too big for Chavez in real terms)
Tszyu - I think it's close but his right would be more of an issue.
Lewis (but I see why some pick Tyson, could go either way)
Cervantes
Johnson
Dempsey (very close though)
Calzaghe/Hopkins (it would always be a close fight with the loser claiming he won)

Pretty sure Frazier was AT LEAST as durable as Holyfield.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Evander was taller and had two good eyes. But if he waded into Foreman face first and crouched into the wheelhouse he wouldn't fare any better, that's for sure.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Sure, but the question was specifically about durability.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I wouldn't argue with your response, I just think Ezzard meant in the context of how a fight would play out between them. And I shockingly agree with him. I'd be very confident in Evander there.

[Ezzard]

Joe was also a slow starter. Holyfield wouldn't get caught cold in the same way.

Evander was certainly more durable than Lyle.

[Goodnight, Irene]

And Foreman was certainly a lot more formidable pre-Zaire.

[The Great John L]

Pretty sure Frazier was AT LEAST as durable as Holyfield.

Agreed. A prime Foreman, i.e., the post Zaire version that had actually learned how to pace himself and shorten up his punches, would most likely have stopped a prime Holyfield.

[Ezzard]

And Foreman was certainly a lot more formidable pre-Zaire.

Not really. Not sure how you work that out?

He had a brittle mentality/confidence that Ali exposed.

I agree that he appeared more formidable. But Holyfield is not the type to be intimidated.

[Goodnight, Irene]

So a career-derailing loss and 15-month ring absence dont dent a fighter? Even if you believed Foreman just as good after the Ali loss (and I dont), he certainly wasnt going to be on that level first fight back.

Agree that Holyfield wont be intimidated --- but I dont see that as to his benefit at all. He couldnt handle Bowes artillery, and like with Bowe, Holyfield would struggle to hurt Foreman. It would be punch-for-punch and Foreman would wreck him when the inevitable war broke out.

[Ezzard]

Holyfield recovered from his career-derailing loss.

To me, it's similar to Tyson. The flaws were always there. And Foreman was still in his prime after the Ali loss he was simply troubled by the defeat and his personal demons.

[yancey]

I've always thought 1973-74 was the prime version of Foreman.

He may have become better technically a little later, but did he not lose a bit of the killer mindset after the nightmare in Zaire?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

He couldnt handle Bowes artillery, and like with Bowe, Holyfield would struggle to hurt Foreman. It would be punch-for-punch and Foreman would wreck him when the inevitable war broke out.

This part strikes me as silly. You want to give Foreman credit, and rightfully so, for having a 15 month layoff. But now you're going to say Evander couldn't handle Bowe's artillery? Why? Because he was stopped once when he was sick as a dog? George didn't have the all around skill set of Bowe. He was more powerful, but not as versatile.

Evander hurt Bowe many times in their fights, he would hurt George too and when Foreman inevitably began to fade, Evander would finish him.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I've always thought 1973-74 was the prime version of Foreman.

He may have become better technically a little later, but did he not lose a bit of the killer mindset after the nightmare in Zaire?

That appears obvious to me.

[Goodnight, Irene]

He couldnt handle Bowes artillery, and like with Bowe, Holyfield would struggle to hurt Foreman. It would be punch-for-punch and Foreman would wreck him when the inevitable war broke out.

This part strikes me as silly. You want to give Foreman credit, and rightfully so, for having a 15 month layoff. But now you're going to say Evander couldn't handle Bowe's artillery? Why? Because he was stopped once when he was sick as a dog? George didn't have the all around skill set of Bowe. He was more powerful, but not as versatile.

Evander hurt Bowe many times in their fights, he would hurt George too and when Foreman inevitably began to fade, Evander would finish him.

I take nothing from Holyfield based on their third fight. I was talking about the 1992 clash, where Holyfield did indeed struggle to hurt Bowe (which is not to say he didnt eventually), and was himself pretty banged up. Foreman cant do some of the things Bowe can, I believe that, but what he can do is put Holyfield in a war mentality, and also hit him repeatedly (as everyone did). Holyfield doesnt have the punch to really deter Foreman, and could only really shake him when Foreman tired --- in the meantime, Foreman is going to make THAT Bowe uppercut seem like small change.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

That Bowe uppercut was after many, many blows when Holyfield was tired himself. George would be long gassed before Evander hit that wall. Not that it took him off his feet anyway. And Stylistically Bowe was a much tighter in fighter than George was, I don't think he hits Holyfield as easily with his bombs. Evander was adequate avoiding punches at the distance George liked to fight at and Evander was one of the more accurate heavyweights since Joe Louis. The main thing for me is the countering of Holyfield, he wouldn't miss George with that hook, and it hurt everyone he landed it on. Well, everyone except for, ironically- George Foreman.

As for the war mentality, there would certainly be exchanges but I have no doubt that Holyfield could stick to a gameplan and use side to side movement and box more than slug. He had no respect for Riddick and thought he could take his heart. He had more respect than that for a 40+ year old Foreman, no reason to believe he wouldn't be more wary against a young one.

[dempseyfire]

That Bowe uppercut was after many, many blows when Holyfield was tired himself. George would be long gassed before Evander hit that wall. Not that it took him off his feet anyway. And Stylistically Bowe was a much tighter in fighter than George was, I don't think he hits Holyfield as easily with his bombs. Evander was adequate avoiding punches at the distance George liked to fight at and Evander was one of the more accurate heavyweights since Joe Louis. The main thing for me is the countering of Holyfield, he wouldn't miss George with that hook, and it hurt everyone he landed it on. Well, everyone except for, ironically- George Foreman.

As for the war mentality, there would certainly be exchanges but I have no doubt that Holyfield could stick to a gameplan and use side to side movement and box more than slug. He had no respect for Riddick and thought he could take his heart. He had more respect than that for a 40+ year old Foreman, no reason to believe he wouldn't be more wary against a young one.

A young Foreman was quicker than Bowe, had a better jab, and was a harder hitter.

When did Evander EVER stick to a gameplan and use side to side movement for a whole fight . . .ummm, NEVER!!!

[Goodnight, Irene]

That was the main point that stuck out to me too, Demps.

I have no confidence in Holyfield to do any such thing, and his career vindicates it.

Holyfield cant win a war with Foreman. He simply hasnt the punch to succesfully stand his ground.