Who is actually the best European boxer?

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 02 Aug 2005, 09:42

stujones wrote:If your looking at skill level then I would say Hatton.

If your looking at P4P basis I would say Hatton followed by Mormeck.

Witter might deserve a call, his win of N'dou is as good as some in that list - no way he deserves to win it but might make the top ten.

Witter is a solid European fighter with 31 years and no world title. A lot of people were talking of a "robbery" vs Kotelnik. Why should this guy come into a top 10. the 5 guys I mentioned above didn´t make it and e.g. Valuev is 1 step away to be Heavy champ is also missing.....

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 02 Aug 2005, 10:05

Loftgroov wrote:Roman Karmazin?

even Robin Reid is worth a shout (if Marcus Beyer is), and so is Clinton Woods being the current IBF champion?

BTW Karmazin is #1 at fightnews and boxrec.....

Reid is no world champion, Markus is #2 and the WBC champ.

Woods is not better than Erdei, Adamek or Tiozzo IMO. He is the worst reigning champ actually and will be lucky to win vs Gonzalez.

Chambers2 · Post by **Chambers2** » 02 Aug 2005, 11:09

BubiScholz wrote:
stujones wrote:If your looking at skill level then I would say Hatton.

If your looking at P4P basis I would say Hatton followed by Mormeck.

Witter might deserve a call, his win of N'dou is as good as some in that list - no way he deserves to win it but might make the top ten.
Witter is a solid European fighter with 31 years and no world title. A lot of people were talking of a "robbery" vs Kotelnik. Why should this guy come into a top 10. the 5 guys I mentioned above didn´t make it and e.g. Valuev is 1 step away to be Heavy champ is also missing.....

I was very impressed with Kotelnik, he'll give anybody a decent fight IMO. hes not flashy in anyway, but he does everything correct.

I'm impressed with Valuev as well, I don't see anybody queueing up to fight him. Hes obviously heavy handed, hes of monstruos size and he ain't no Primo Canerra (sp) in the skills dept either.

In Witters defence he is in the best division in boxing (or it has been anyway) and he has been avoided as hes percieved as too much of a risk by most champions, because of his power and awkwardness

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 02 Aug 2005, 11:15

BubiScholz wrote:
stujones wrote:If your looking at skill level then I would say Hatton.

If your looking at P4P basis I would say Hatton followed by Mormeck.

Witter might deserve a call, his win of N'dou is as good as some in that list - no way he deserves to win it but might make the top ten.
Witter is a solid European fighter with 31 years and no world title. A lot of people were talking of a "robbery" vs Kotelnik. Why should this guy come into a top 10. the 5 guys I mentioned above didn´t make it and e.g. Valuev is 1 step away to be Heavy champ is also missing.....

But Arthur Abraham and Laun Kransiqi have only matched (at best) the achievements of Witter. Abraham's best win was against a fellow who was shut out vs Hopkins (and that was a tad controvesial). Witter beat a guy (N'dou) who genually ran both Cotto and Mitchell close.

I'll wait untill Kransiqi vs Brewester before making a judgement on his inclusion. Kransiqi's win over Sam wasn't near as comfortable as JC Gomez's a few fights before.

DA_SERGEANT_WRIGHT · Post by **DA_SERGEANT_WRIGHT** » 02 Aug 2005, 11:33

4 me its carl froch

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 02 Aug 2005, 11:44

stujones wrote:
BubiScholz wrote:
stujones wrote:If your looking at skill level then I would say Hatton.

If your looking at P4P basis I would say Hatton followed by Mormeck.

Witter might deserve a call, his win of N'dou is as good as some in that list - no way he deserves to win it but might make the top ten.
Witter is a solid European fighter with 31 years and no world title. A lot of people were talking of a "robbery" vs Kotelnik. Why should this guy come into a top 10. the 5 guys I mentioned above didn´t make it and e.g. Valuev is 1 step away to be Heavy champ is also missing.....
But Arthur Abraham and Laun Kransiqi have only matched (at best) the achievements of Witter. Abraham's best win was against a fellow who was shut out vs Hopkins (and that was a tad controvesial). Witter beat a guy (N'dou) who genually ran both Cotto and Mitchell close.

I'll wait untill Kransiqi vs Brewester before making a judgement on his inclusion. Kransiqi's win over Sam wasn't near as comfortable as JC Gomez's a few fights before.

Even Urkal has reached more than Witter, a tough fight vs Tszyu (an all-time-great) a robbery vs Harrris and a lost fight vs Harris. Now he is, after stepping up in the division, euro champ in welter. But I also don´t have him in a top ten.

Abraham is #3 or 4 in the World and Europes best Middleweight. Taylor holds 4 title so he doesn´t have one.

Luan is #2 in Europe in Heavyweight, where the Europeans are on the way to rule the division like they do in Super Middle.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 02 Aug 2005, 12:17

Abraham as Europes #1 Middleweight? Surely there is some debate on that one - Felix Sturm? The new EBU champion might argue aswell.

Luan = Europes #2 Heavyweight? Some debate also - Wlad?

Also European dominating the Heavyweight devision.

They have a champion and possibly 2 other fighters making the lower reaches of the top ten (in most peoples rankings). Thats not what I call dominating.

Byrd, Ruiz, Toney, Brewester, McCline, Peter, Brock, Sanders, Rahman, Barrett, Tua, Williamson,

None of whom are European.

With Urkal I agree and I think he should be in ahead of Kransiqi and Abraham also - as should Witter.

Personally I don't have Witter in the top ten, but if Kransiqi and Abraham are there then Witter deserves a mention.

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 02 Aug 2005, 12:34

stujones wrote:Abraham as Europes #1 Middleweight? Surely there is some debate on that one - Felix Sturm? The new EBU champion might argue aswell.

Luan = Europes #2 Heavyweight? Some debate also - Wlad?

Also European dominating the Heavyweight devision.

They have a champion and possibly 2 other fighters making the lower reaches of the top ten (in most peoples rankings). Thats not what I call dominating.

Byrd, Ruiz, Toney, Brewester, McCline, Peter, Brock, Sanders, Rahman, Barrett, Tua, Williamson,

None of whom are European.

With Urkal I agree and I think he should be in ahead of Kransiqi and Abraham also - as should Witter.

Personally I don't have Witter in the top ten, but if Kransiqi and Abraham are there then Witter deserves a mention.

I said that the Europeans are on the way to rule the division. Wait!

Eastman was the best European, maybe together with Felix Sturm. Abraham beat Eastman clearly and must be now considered as #1 because he beat better opponents as Felix.

Witter and Urkal are just not in the top 10. Where is the problem? if they are in your top ten: Congratulation.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 02 Aug 2005, 12:41

There is no problem, just causing a debate. Personally I would rather see two world champions like Woods or Tiozzo than the two I have been mentioning. I just brought up Witter because I think if Abraham/Kransiqi is being mentioned then so should Witter (and as you said Urkal).

I just see them two as the weak link in what are very strong (and accurate) remaining options.

It is Hatton all the way though.

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 02 Aug 2005, 13:12

stujones wrote:There is no problem, just causing a debate. Personally I would rather see two world champions like Woods or Tiozzo than the two I have been mentioning. I just brought up Witter because I think if Abraham/Kransiqi is being mentioned then so should Witter (and as you said Urkal).

I just see them two as the weak link in what are very strong (and accurate) remaining options.

It is Hatton all the way though.

It´s always difficult to make a list that suits everybody. I am not the pope of European boxing....

I absolutely agree with the #1. It´s definetely Hatton after the Tszyu-fight.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 02 Aug 2005, 14:54

Hatton is the king out of them lot.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 03 Aug 2005, 05:30

Kotelnik is a solid Eastern European fighter, but Witter's lack of fundamentals made him look a lot better than he was. Jabbing from behind a high guard is hardly fornicating dazzling skills is it.

I reckon that Kotelnik wouldn't look anywhere near as good against the likes of Cotto, Mayweather, and personally I think Hatton would have just driven him to the ropes and given him a shoeeing. Kotelnik didn't move much, he just stood at ring centre, blocked Witter's huge swings, and jabbed back.

Witter has to learn that he cannot try and take people's heads off with every punch at top level, it worked with the likes of Lucky Sambo et al.

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 03 Aug 2005, 06:18

In the german forum the actual standing is:

V.Klitschko (21,28%)
Mormeck (17,02%)
Calzaghe!!! (12,77%)
Hatton (10,64%)

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 03 Aug 2005, 06:20

They voted for Calzaghe over Hatton!

Loftgroov · Post by **Loftgroov** » 03 Aug 2005, 06:49

Max Molyneux wrote:They voted for Calzaghe over Hatton!

Tells you all you need to know about Germans

Watching Abraham's brother fight on Eurosport recently, I couldn't help but notice how utterly silent the crowd is when watching a fight. It has all the atmosphere of a cinema....with just a quick, polite clapping of hands at the end of each round.

I'm sure this subject will have been discussed on the forum, but what is the reason for this "ultra-reserved" form of spectating the Germans seem to go for? It's quite odd.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 03 Aug 2005, 07:04

Oh yeah that fight on the undercard of Samil Sam was quiet.

Freiheit · Post by **Freiheit** » 03 Aug 2005, 07:59

As I recall it it was the first fight on the card. And the Abraham brothers are armenian so I dont think that the crowds are that much behind them.

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 03 Aug 2005, 08:05

actually Hatton has the same points as Calzaghe.

Reasons could be: Calzaghe is more known, and weight classes under Middle are not very popular.

The audience in Germany differs on the fighters. Krasniqi, Urkal and Sam have e.g. a very loud audience, the Klitschkos too. Watch a normal US-fight, there is not more noise in it.

O.k., I was in Manchester for the Hatton-fight. This audience is unbelievable, but I can´t imagine that this is normal for a british fight. Hatton and his audience is unique in the world.

J · Post by J » 03 Aug 2005, 08:07

aargh mate shame we didnt get to the york hall. Close to the action and its riotous in there all night undercard included, obviously you have maybe 1500 people vs 22,000 at the MEN, but for a small hall it kicks off and is a realy bear pit.

fave venue withouth a doubt.

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 03 Aug 2005, 08:55

J wrote:aargh mate shame we didnt get to the york hall. Close to the action and its riotous in there all night undercard included, obviously you have maybe 1500 people vs 22,000 at the MEN, but for a small hall it kicks off and is a realy bear pit.

fave venue withouth a doubt.

tell me when there will be a good show!

Raff The Frenchman · Post by **Raff The Frenchman** » 04 Aug 2005, 03:17

my heart says Mormeck although my head leans towards Hatton by a short margin...if Mormeck beats Nelson, he will become the N°1 euro fighter imo...

Manos de Oro · Post by **Manos de Oro** » 04 Aug 2005, 05:48

Raff The Frenchman wrote:my heart says Mormeck although my head leans towards Hatton by a short margin...if Mormeck beats Nelson, he will become the N°1 euro fighter imo...

Nelson would be the hardest opponent for Jean Marc in the current scene. He would eat up the so called big punchers of the division. A good boxer is the only one who's going to beat Mormeck, and those wins over Gurov and Hill twice look ominious. You could say Hill was ancient, which technically he was, but he was also fit, speaks clearly, and his style doesn't rely on reflexes - more a well timed jab.

duck · Post by **duck** » 04 Aug 2005, 07:31

wouldnt argue about hatton ,but sergai zinzerouk light middle must be in with a shout, i think he was an olympic finalist, and had something like 300 amateur bouts most of them he stopped very big puncher he is something like W30 L0 24kos

duck · Post by **duck** » 04 Aug 2005, 07:32

wouldnt argue about hatton ,but sergai zinzerouk light middle must be in with a shout, i think he was an olympic finalist, and had something like 300 amateur bouts most of them he stopped very big puncher he is something like W30 L0 24kos

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 04 Aug 2005, 08:02

Raff The Frenchman wrote:my heart says Mormeck although my head leans towards Hatton by a short margin...if Mormeck beats Nelson, he will become the N°1 euro fighter imo...

you´ll be surprised when I tell you that on the german forum Mormeck is #2 (14,81%) after Vitali with 20,375. 3 and 4 are Hatton and Calzaghe (12,96%). Position 5 is the first German boxer, Luan Krasniqi with 9,26%.

Who is actually the best European boxer?

Best European boxer

best european

best european