Hatton & Calzaghe --- Who Ranks Higher Historically?

[NazNaci1]

Before it was all said and done Joe Calzaghe established himself as THE Super Middleweight Champion and THE Light Heavyweight Champion. You guys all seem to conveniently forget that.

Hmm, I wonder what RJJ would say about that at the time he was SMW and then LH Champ, Calzaghe was happy to sway away from him, something people forget.

[gilgamesh]

Whatever, he ducked people in their primes WE GET IT!!! DAMN talk about beating a dead horse, the fact remains at the end of HIS career he became the recognized champion in those weight classes. That's all I'm saying, I'm not saying he didn't duck people. I'm just saying just because you feel he ducked people doesn't mean he didn't become the Champ in his own sweet time, even if it was against faded versions of once great fighters.

[NazNaci1]

You can't argue one side and the dismiss the other because it doesn't fit your argument.

You either take in account all or nothing, not parts that suit.

[gilgamesh]

Who's dismissing? Ricky Hatton was a solid Jr. Welterweight Champion I acknowledge that, he has some great wins over Very good fighters. 1 win over a Hall of Famer. No minor accomplishment, I've said that. Calzaghe has 2 wins over Hall of Famers, faded though they may have been. Although clearly in the case of Hopkins he had quite a bit left in the tank, I mean he was the Light Heavyweight Champion just a few short months back if you recall. The Jones that Calzaghe fought wasn't Roy Jones Jr. anymore like we knew him, I'll grant you that, but regardless Calzaghe did what he had to do and won the fight. He dominated Lacy and shut him out, he won comfortably over Kessler who has shown since then that he was a pretty damn solid fighter in his own right. He won these fights clearly, I know some will say the Hopkins fight was close and blah, blah, blah. Calzaghe beat him, that's all there is to it. I'm not a Calzaghe fan, I'm not trying to blow out of proportion what he accomplished. I'm merely stating facts. He retired unbeaten, and those 4 wins Hopkins, Jones, Kessler, Lacy. Are better than the Hatton's 4 best wins. Tszyu, JLC, Malignaggi, and hell I don't know whoever you want to put at the 4 spot on that list, When Calzaghe stepped up to his biggest challenges in his career he walked away with his hand raised. Hatton got KNOCKED OUT TWICE. That's the bottom line

[Goodnight, Irene]

Bottom line if you dont know what the fuk youre talking about

I dont know why youre watching fights when you couldve drawn that conclusion from BoxRec.

[gilgamesh]

I'm not gonna argue with you guys anymore. I'm right, you're wrong. I'm sorry you can't deal with that

[Goodnight, Irene]

Hatton was also rewarded financially for it, Calzaghe wouldn't have been getting anything close to what Hatton was getting against Mayweather had he fought Jones in his LHW days. I agree that it goes against Calzaghe that didn't chase the best, but Hatton was earning millions doing so, how much do we honestly think Calzaghe would have gotten as a no-name-in-America opponent against RJJ back then?

I find that (the money argument) pretty feeble, to be honest.

Well Hopkins agreed to fight Calzaghe, agreed on money and everything, then the next day asked for double the amount he agreed on the day before, so money plays a large part in why these fights didn't happen when they should. I don't think it's that 'feeble' of an argument to say Calzaghe was earning well enough at home defending his title where a fight against a RJJ for probably less than he was getting in title defences at home presented a rather silly risk vs reward scenario. I agree that that kind of thinking does hold his career back a bit, but you can see the point being made, surely?

I suppose I can. Still, Im very leary to give Calzaghe anything when Hatton took a huge risk against Mayweather.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Roy Jones was one of Joe's four best wins? Give me a second...

If you believe that, he definitely doesn't rate well with Hatton.

[roccittymaj]

Roy Jones was one of Joe's four best wins? Give me a second...

If you believe that, he definitely doesn't rate well with Hatton.

Agreed, Roy was done at that point.

[p4p1]

Calzaghe beat better competition. Even you say that Hopkins was better than anyone that Hatton beat. Kessler was also better than anyone Hatton beat.

I think that is very debatable. You are taking liberties here while trying to make your point. Is a prime Kessler a better pound-for-pound fighter than a prime Jose Luis Castillo?
I'm not sure about that, it's a close one.

It's also worth point out that Calzaghe almost always won easily. It's not like he was struggling with the equivalent of a Luis Collazo.

Well first off, in that fight against Collazo Hatton struggled with his own weight, he didnm't fell comofrtable at Welterweight, so he moved back down again after the fight.

But Hatton was beating World Champions and former World Champions, Calzaghe wasn't (except the later stages of his career when he faced Hopkins, Jones JR, Lacy & Kessler).

Bad defeats have to count against you. If Hatton really was a great fighter, he would have been competitive against Pac and Mayweather.

The fight against Mayweather was competitive, although Joe Cortez did his level best to make it not so.

I agree however when Mayweather adjusted in the 7th (i think) it was no longer competetive although i think hatton lost his chance when that point was taken away and he just seemed to be much easier to read

[observer1]

Hatton was also rewarded financially for it, Calzaghe wouldn't have been getting anything close to what Hatton was getting against Mayweather had he fought Jones in his LHW days. I agree that it goes against Calzaghe that didn't chase the best, but Hatton was earning millions doing so, how much do we honestly think Calzaghe would have gotten as a no-name-in-America opponent against RJJ back then?

I find that (the money argument) pretty feeble, to be honest.

Well Hopkins agreed to fight Calzaghe, agreed on money and everything, then the next day asked for double the amount he agreed on the day before, so money plays a large part in why these fights didn't happen when they should. I don't think it's that 'feeble' of an argument to say Calzaghe was earning well enough at home defending his title where a fight against a RJJ for probably less than he was getting in title defences at home presented a rather silly risk vs reward scenario. I agree that that kind of thinking does hold his career back a bit, but you can see the point being made, surely?

That's not strictly true. Warren said that, but he also said a lot of things, especially after Joe sacked him.

After the Hopkins-Trinidad bout, Hopkins was getting offers for massive paydays. The Bout with Joe was more about the belt than anything else.

Hopkins had the choice of coming the UK, move up in division and face someone for a normal payday, or stay in MSG and have super fights. He went for the latter and went on to face DLH at 156 and earned a career high payday.

The reality is, Joe faced no credible opponents or had any super fights or big fights. The only thing Joe's fans hold on to was Hopkins walking away and opting to for bigger paydays.

The point is, Nearly ALL other boxers negotiated and had their deal's fall flat at the last minute. It still happens today with the likes of Mayweather, Pac, Khan, Klitschko, etc. You don't see them talking about it 24/7. That's just Boxing for you.

For Joe and his fans to talk about 1 proposed bout that fell through nearly 10 years ago is pathetic. Him and Warren knew exactly what they were doing.

Khan and Hatton left Warren a lot sooner though, and eventually had bigger better bouts.

[IRLangmaid25]

I cannot believe that when we talk about Joe Calzaghe we have not mentioned how sometimes the injuries he suffered to his hands whether it have been fights (ie against Evans Ashira) or training when sparing with Nathan Cleverly also cost him some of these opportunities or had the opportunities delayed (ie when fighting Roy Jones). I seem to remember reading that Calzaghe was to have meant to fought Glencoffe Johnson at one point only to break his left hand in training but also some of the main men were probably ducking HIM, because they saw him as high risk and low reward if they beat him earlier on his reign. But when you go through Calzaghe's slate he has defeated.

Roy Jones 4 weight world champion and an all time great
Bernard Hopkins 2 weight world champion former undisputed Middleweight Champion and the oldest ever World Champion.
Mikkel Kessler 3 time Super Middleweight World Champion
Jeff Lacy who was meant to be the next big start at Super-Middle and Calzaghe dismantled him when there alot of people within the press who thought that Calzaghe was there for the taking and produced probably in my opinion the best performance in his career.

Byron Mitchell former WBA title holder
Charles Brewer former IBF title holder
Richie Woodall former WBC title holder and former Commonwealth and European Middleweight Champion
Robin Reid former WBC and IBO title holder
Chris Eubank former WBO Middleweight and Super Middleweight title holder

So he has defeated 9 World Champions in his incredible career. Yes there may have been a few easy fights in his career, but there has been many a World Champion who has done that in their career

[Crease]

You can't argue one side and the dismiss the other because it doesn't fit your argument.
You either take in account all or nothing, not parts that suit.

I think that is an excellent point that bengulnaci makes here. It's important to be objective, if there's no objectivity then any discussion is rather pointless.

For my part I think when comparing these 2 British greats, the is is a definitive one:

He could have chased the glory. Hatton showed no fear of doing so.

And I really casn't see of any argument against this.

Calzaghe being happy enough to defend is WBO Title and not seeks out the best fighters out there will always leave his reputation easy to criticise.

[observer1]

I cannot believe that when we talk about Joe Calzaghe we have not mentioned how sometimes the injuries he suffered to his hands whether it have been fights (ie against Evans Ashira) or training when sparing with Nathan Cleverly also cost him some of these opportunities or had the opportunities delayed (ie when fighting Roy Jones). I seem to remember reading that Calzaghe was to have meant to fought Glencoffe Johnson at one point only to break his left hand in training but also some of the main men were probably ducking HIM, because they saw him as high risk and low reward if they beat him earlier on his reign. But when you go through Calzaghe's slate he has defeated.

Roy Jones 4 weight world champion and an all time great
Bernard Hopkins 2 weight world champion former undisputed Middleweight Champion and the oldest ever World Champion.
Mikkel Kessler 3 time Super Middleweight World Champion
Jeff Lacy who was meant to be the next big start at Super-Middle and Calzaghe dismantled him when there alot of people within the press who thought that Calzaghe was there for the taking and produced probably in my opinion the best performance in his career.

Byron Mitchell former WBA title holder
Charles Brewer former IBF title holder
Richie Woodall former WBC title holder and former Commonwealth and European Middleweight Champion
Robin Reid former WBC and IBO title holder
Chris Eubank former WBO Middleweight and Super Middleweight title holder

So he has defeated 9 World Champions in his incredible career. Yes there may have been a few easy fights in his career, but there has been many a World Champion who has done that in their career

Spoken like a true fanboy

;;-)

[Goodnight, Irene]

I cannot believe that when we talk about Joe Calzaghe we have not mentioned how sometimes the injuries he suffered to his hands whether it have been fights (ie against Evans Ashira) or training when sparing with Nathan Cleverly also cost him some of these opportunities or had the opportunities delayed (ie when fighting Roy Jones). I seem to remember reading that Calzaghe was to have meant to fought Glencoffe Johnson at one point only to break his left hand in training but also some of the main men were probably ducking HIM, because they saw him as high risk and low reward if they beat him earlier on his reign. But when you go through Calzaghe's slate he has defeated.

Roy Jones 4 weight world champion and an all time great
Bernard Hopkins 2 weight world champion former undisputed Middleweight Champion and the oldest ever World Champion.
Mikkel Kessler 3 time Super Middleweight World Champion
Jeff Lacy who was meant to be the next big start at Super-Middle and Calzaghe dismantled him when there alot of people within the press who thought that Calzaghe was there for the taking and produced probably in my opinion the best performance in his career.

Byron Mitchell former WBA title holder
Charles Brewer former IBF title holder
Richie Woodall former WBC title holder and former Commonwealth and European Middleweight Champion
Robin Reid former WBC and IBO title holder
Chris Eubank former WBO Middleweight and Super Middleweight title holder

So he has defeated 9 World Champions in his incredible career. Yes there may have been a few easy fights in his career, but there has been many a World Champion who has done that in their career

Spoken like a true fanboy

;;-)

Agreed. I dont know if Langers is a fanboy or not, but trumpeting Jones, Kessler, and several paper titleists (not, "World Champions," at all), comes across that way.

[IRLangmaid25]

I cannot believe that when we talk about Joe Calzaghe we have not mentioned how sometimes the injuries he suffered to his hands whether it have been fights (ie against Evans Ashira) or training when sparing with Nathan Cleverly also cost him some of these opportunities or had the opportunities delayed (ie when fighting Roy Jones). I seem to remember reading that Calzaghe was to have meant to fought Glencoffe Johnson at one point only to break his left hand in training but also some of the main men were probably ducking HIM, because they saw him as high risk and low reward if they beat him earlier on his reign. But when you go through Calzaghe's slate he has defeated.

Roy Jones 4 weight world champion and an all time great
Bernard Hopkins 2 weight world champion former undisputed Middleweight Champion and the oldest ever World Champion.
Mikkel Kessler 3 time Super Middleweight World Champion
Jeff Lacy who was meant to be the next big start at Super-Middle and Calzaghe dismantled him when there alot of people within the press who thought that Calzaghe was there for the taking and produced probably in my opinion the best performance in his career.

Byron Mitchell former WBA title holder
Charles Brewer former IBF title holder
Richie Woodall former WBC title holder and former Commonwealth and European Middleweight Champion
Robin Reid former WBC and IBO title holder
Chris Eubank former WBO Middleweight and Super Middleweight title holder

So he has defeated 9 World Champions in his incredible career. Yes there may have been a few easy fights in his career, but there has been many a World Champion who has done that in their career

Spoken like a true fanboy

;;-)

Agreed. I dont know if Langers is a fanboy or not, but trumpeting Jones, Kessler, and several paper titleists (not, "World Champions," at all), comes across that way.

I will admit that Joe Calzaghe is one of my favourite fighters, but that does not automatically make a total fan boy at all, I am just saying that regardless of people's opinions of the alphabet soups that often infuriate us on he did fight some world champions, but ulitmately it is the name on the slate and the results that get in the book that matters. Would I have like to see Calzaghe gone stateside a little earlier in his career to take the big fights absolutely, but he did not, but he is still a great World Champion and an ambassador for British boxing and will be quite deserving of his place in the IBHOF when he becomes eligible after 2014.

[Ambling Alp]

Kessler was a really good fighter; certainly better than anyone that Hatton ever beat.
An old Hopkins was as well.
Even guys like Lacy, Brewer etc, were close the best that Hatton beat.

Sure it would have been nice if Calzaghe would have fought say Hopkins when he was younger or Jones or Toney. however, was Kessler really avoiding them? I think if anything, it was the other way around. They had little to gain and something to lose by fighting him. They were far bigger names than Calzaghe.

If you are going to compare Hatton to a great fighter , then yes there is shame in getting beat badly (Twice). It is a big deal that he could was not anywhere near Maywether and Pacmans league. That mean he can't be a great fighter if he is that far below them.
Yes it is strong evidence against Hatton that he almost lost to Collazo. Yes Collazo was a welterweight. Was a that good? No. A way past it Mosley beat Collazo easily.

If Hartton beat better competition, how come we never hear about them?

All you ever hear is the "big" win over a past it Kosta Tysu (an overrated fighter even at his best)? Why don't we here about all of those other great wins?

[Goodnight, Irene]

To call three time world champion Mikkel Kessler a paper champion just seems bizarre to me.

Really? Which three occasions was he legitimately the champion of the world?

Not that I called him a paper titleist to begin with, mind.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Kessler was a really good fighter; certainly better than anyone that Hatton ever beat.
An old Hopkins was as well.
Even guys like Lacy, Brewer etc, were close the best that Hatton beat.

Sure it would have been nice if Calzaghe would have fought say Hopkins when he was younger or Jones or Toney. however, was Kessler really avoiding them? I think if anything, it was the other way around. They had little to gain and something to lose by fighting him. They were far bigger names than Calzaghe.

If you are going to compare Hatton to a great fighter , then yes there is shame in getting beat badly (Twice). It is a big deal that he could was not anywhere near Maywether and Pacmans league. That mean he can't be a great fighter if he is that far below them.
Yes it is strong evidence against Hatton that he almost lost to Collazo. Yes Collazo was a welterweight. Was a that good? No. A way past it Mosley beat Collazo easily.

If Hartton beat better competition, how come we never hear about them?

All you ever hear is the "big" win over a past it Kosta Tysu (an overrated fighter even at his best)? Why don't we here about all of those other great wins?

1. Kessler was a better fighter than Tszyu? Give me a break. That's hilarious.

2. Lacy & Brewer were near to Tszyu's level? Even funnier.

3. You keep saying Hatton isn't a great fighter. Who is claiming otherwise? Some of us just feel Calzaghe didn't do anymore with his career, even if he was a better boxer.

4. It is easy to say Calzaghe didn't get comprehensively beaten when he didn't face ANYONE (Hopkins included) in the same class as prime versions of Pacquiao or Mayweather. The, '0' looks great when you avoid addressing the fact he didn't get near anyone like those guys.

[roccittymaj]

Kessler was a really good fighter; certainly better than anyone that Hatton ever beat.
An old Hopkins was as well.
Even guys like Lacy, Brewer etc, were close the best that Hatton beat.

Sure it would have been nice if Calzaghe would have fought say Hopkins when he was younger or Jones or Toney. however, was Kessler really avoiding them? I think if anything, it was the other way around. They had little to gain and something to lose by fighting him. They were far bigger names than Calzaghe.

If you are going to compare Hatton to a great fighter , then yes there is shame in getting beat badly (Twice). It is a big deal that he could was not anywhere near Maywether and Pacmans league. That mean he can't be a great fighter if he is that far below them.
Yes it is strong evidence against Hatton that he almost lost to Collazo. Yes Collazo was a welterweight. Was a that good? No. A way past it Mosley beat Collazo easily.

If Hartton beat better competition, how come we never hear about them?

All you ever hear is the "big" win over a past it Kosta Tysu (an overrated fighter even at his best)? Why don't we here about all of those other great wins?

1. Kessler was a better fighter than Tszyu? Give me a break. That's hilarious.

2. Lacy & Brewer were near to Tszyu's level? Even funnier.

3. You keep saying Hatton isn't a great fighter. Who is claiming otherwise? Some of us just feel Calzaghe didn't do anymore with his career, even if he was a better boxer.

4.It is easy to say Calzaghe didn't get comprehensively beaten when he didn't face ANYONE (Hopkins included) in the same class as prime versions of Pacquiao or Mayweather. The, '0' looks great when you avoid addressing the fact he didn't get near anyone like those guys.

Perfect analysis! Cant explain it any better than that!

[Goodnight, Irene]

Kessler was a really good fighter; certainly better than anyone that Hatton ever beat.
An old Hopkins was as well.
Even guys like Lacy, Brewer etc, were close the best that Hatton beat.

Sure it would have been nice if Calzaghe would have fought say Hopkins when he was younger or Jones or Toney. however, was Kessler really avoiding them? I think if anything, it was the other way around. They had little to gain and something to lose by fighting him. They were far bigger names than Calzaghe.

If you are going to compare Hatton to a great fighter , then yes there is shame in getting beat badly (Twice). It is a big deal that he could was not anywhere near Maywether and Pacmans league. That mean he can't be a great fighter if he is that far below them.
Yes it is strong evidence against Hatton that he almost lost to Collazo. Yes Collazo was a welterweight. Was a that good? No. A way past it Mosley beat Collazo easily.

If Hartton beat better competition, how come we never hear about them?

All you ever hear is the "big" win over a past it Kosta Tysu (an overrated fighter even at his best)? Why don't we here about all of those other great wins?

Funny --- that one isn't difficult to turn on its head.

All we hear about with Calzaghe is the, "big," win over a past-it Hopkins (an over-rated fighter also).

[The Great John L]

1. Kessler was a better fighter than Tszyu? Give me a break. That's hilarious.

2. Lacy & Brewer were near to Tszyu's level? Even funnier.

3. You keep saying Hatton isn't a great fighter. Who is claiming otherwise? Some of us just feel Calzaghe didn't do anymore with his career, even if he was a better boxer.

4. It is easy to say Calzaghe didn't get comprehensively beaten when he didn't face ANYONE (Hopkins included) in the same class as prime versions of Pacquiao or Mayweather. The, '0' looks great when you avoid addressing the fact he didn't get near anyone like those guys.

Nicely stated.

[Crease]

Kessler was a really good fighter; certainly better than anyone that Hatton ever beat.

Kostya Tszyu is wwwaaaaaayyyyyy ahead of Mikael Kessler.
And I would say that a prime Castillo is ahead of Kessler too.

[Ezzard]

I think Alp’s point is that he feels the Kessler Joe fought was better than the versions of Castillo and Tszyu that Hatton fought. That’s what you need to agree or disagree with.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Possibly, but that isnt what he stated.

The versions Hatton fought, I could see Kessler above Castillo, who was used-up.

Kessler is indisputably inferior to Tszyu, however. Any Tszyu.