boxrec errors

Cojimar 1945 · Post by **Cojimar 1945** » 31 Jul 2005, 12:50

I have noticed some potential errors in boxrec stats regarding certain fighters. Boxrec lists Joe Louis' height as 6 ft 2 while Joe Louis himself gives his height as 6 ft 1 1/2, Jack Johnson is listed as being 6 ft 1 1/2 while the majority of sources put his height at 6 ft 1/4 or 6 ft 1 1/4 and Ali's reach is given as 83 inches when it appears it is actually 80 inches while Foreman's reach is given as 82 inches though it apparently is 78 1/2 inches.

Boxrec also puts Ron Lyle's birthdate as 1941 while another source says 1942 and Earnie Shavers seems to indicate in his autobiography that he was actually born in 1944 rather than 1945. I was wondering if people have any thoughts as to the accuracy of the information?

robert.snell1 · Post by **robert.snell1** » 01 Aug 2005, 03:48

Its more a case of some people being economic with the truth regarding such matters. elastic tape measures seem quite common in boxing

barry · Post by **barry** » 01 Aug 2005, 03:59

Some cases it could be a matter of what source do you really want to believe...the fact that one newspapers says this, while another newspaper says that, and yet one biography says that, while another says this...it's these kinds of things that make boxing history kind of fun to research because evenutally, you will have to do a ton of research and a lot of times the info is going to be different and the best anyone can do is take all the info...put it together and take a good educted guess...that, or just list ever single discrepancy, which I personally like to do.

robert.snell1 · Post by **robert.snell1** » 01 Aug 2005, 04:39

Hi Barry.....yes what you say is quite correct and i agree its this part of looking into the history side of boxing which makes it such a interesting andd fun thing to do.

As for making lists I think you list if the sun was shining when a fight took place mate.

for those into this sort of thing I have recently aquired a book concerning the Liverpool Stadium. It was the ledger used by the promoter Johnny Best to record the fights he dealt with from 1934-50 and has several 1000 pages and god knows how many fights.

in addition to the result it details the Referee, purse, weight of fighters, and some comment on the fight. I have put some examples on our web site

http://www.lmu.livjm.ac.uk/inmylife/Cha ... t/1116.htm bio -Merseyside and Wirral Ex boxers

So far i have found about 300 un listed fights

Trent · Post by **Trent** » 01 Aug 2005, 05:42

How long did boxrec take to complete the data base? like all the oldtime fights?

barry · Post by **barry** » 01 Aug 2005, 06:25

The database is, and always will be a work in progress. I don't recall exactly the date it was started, I joined around the fall of 2000, I believe it first came online a couple of months before that, but it has grown by leaps and bounds the short time that it has been online and considering that we have some of the top historians in the world now working on the records as editors...it will only become better and better...fightfax will be a thing of the past in a couple of years...sorry, but from now on I'm going to try to incorporate that fact (fightfax sinking) in everything I write, or correspond to! Right now, I would guess that pre-1920 is the area that is lacking the most, although one can find tons of records for fighters from that era.

Rob---I bet you enjoy going through the Johnny Best book...it sounds like a fantastic find. Also, in a month, or so I'm going to be getting several issues of Mirror of Life/Boxing World for the period of 1913 thru 1922, so I should be able to contribute with some good material for the website.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 01 Aug 2005, 08:45

Just let me say as an anthority on height 8) (my tape measure is legendary

!)
that height is a rather subjective matter. :x .. as my freind Kovit would say (where is Kovit???

) you can be one height one day and another the next day!.

.. a lot of it depends on the weather..

. people tend to shrink a little during damp or wet weather

:( :(

. This is true!

. Also a fighter is usually a little taller after he has exerted himself to extremes!

.
These are little thing not widely known

but they are not tall stories beleive me! 8)

robert.snell1 · Post by **robert.snell1** » 01 Aug 2005, 08:58

barry wrote:The database is, and always will be a work in progress. I don't recall exactly the date it was started, I joined around the fall of 2000, I believe it first came online a couple of months before that, but it has grown by leaps and bounds the short time that it has been online and considering that we have some of the top historians in the world now working on the records as editors...it will only become better and better...fightfax will be a thing of the past in a couple of years...sorry, but from now on I'm going to try to incorporate that fact (fightfax sinking) in everything I write, or correspond to! Right now, I would guess that pre-1920 is the area that is lacking the most, although one can find tons of records for fighters from that era.

Rob---I bet you enjoy going through the Johnny Best book...it sounds like a fantastic find. Also, in a month, or so I'm going to be getting several issues of Mirror of Life/Boxing World for the period of 1913 thru 1922, so I should be able to contribute with some good material for the website.

hi barry...its amazing and such a joy as it has lots of items about my dad.

what you spoke about will be a real help with the site, thank you very much.

robert.snell1 · Post by **robert.snell1** » 01 Aug 2005, 09:01

silkov wrote:Just let me say as an anthority on height 8) (my tape measure is legendary !)
that height is a rather subjective matter. :x .. as my freind Kovit would say (where is Kovit??? ) you can be one height one day and another the next day!. .. a lot of it depends on the weather.. . people tend to shrink a little during damp or wet weather :( :( . This is true! . Also a fighter is usually a little taller after he has exerted himself to extremes! .
These are little thing not widely known but they are not tall stories beleive me! 8)

mr silkov is the KING ----another pint you owe me mate

Cojimar 1945 · Post by **Cojimar 1945** » 01 Aug 2005, 10:26

What do you mean by economic with the truth? Some of the stats surprised me because numerous other sources reported different info.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 01 Aug 2005, 10:42

Cojimar 1945 wrote:What do you mean by economic with the truth? Some of the stats surprised me because numerous other sources reported different info.

How longs a peice of string?..... 8)

robert.snell1 · Post by **robert.snell1** » 01 Aug 2005, 13:57

Cojimar 1945 wrote:What do you mean by economic with the truth? Some of the stats surprised me because numerous other sources reported different info.

people do not tell the truth

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 01 Aug 2005, 15:12

robert.snell1 wrote:
Cojimar 1945 wrote:What do you mean by economic with the truth? Some of the stats surprised me because numerous other sources reported different info.
people do not tell the truth

There are many tall stories in boxing!...

8)

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 01 Aug 2005, 15:52

Every contributor to this cause are to be sincerely congratulated! I'm sure that as the work evolves it will continue to improve in both volume and accuracy of the information. This is the groundwork that has been needed to breathe life back into boxing.

I would think in the next 5 years the positive impact on this sport because of the work done here will be clear and profound. I'm a lover of this sport and it's history and though there are many others who have a better grasp on the history than I, I would say no one is more enthusiastic. This project has already made an impact on the sport world as I see it.

The information that is being made available here and the forums that have been implemented will bring back an undeniable lineage to the sport that has been hijacked by these moronic sanctioning organizations.

Impressive what a little truth can do.

Did I say thank you? Well I meant to.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 01 Aug 2005, 16:20

Seriously I think the records site of this forum is excellent and long may the hard work continue... I especially like the new additions in some records of being able to see the statistical record of the oppoent and the weights of both boxers.... I know this isn't always available but it is a definate bonus when it is. I'd also hope that perhaps in time every record will be accompanied by a photo of the boxer where possible as it is always fascinating to see what fighters look like, especially the oldtimers!.

dnahar32 · Post by **dnahar32** » 01 Aug 2005, 17:21

This is a great database. It has increased my enjoyment of the sport tremendously and it is a continuous work in progress with many people working to get it right.

Back to the original height and errors question. While it is true that different papers can list different things, from my experience finding this information very few fighters are listed less than what they are so I generally go with the lowest possible height I can find. Reach is more subjective, but usually the lesser ones are more accurate. And once fighters become champions, their height, reach, etc. seem to get a "championship" nudge upwards. I would suggest getting the information if possible from their pre-chammpionship days.

I don't know about the birthdates, but all the numbers you mention are closer to the truth than the current Boxrec listed numbers. But knowing BoxRec, that will probably change.

gregor · Post by **gregor** » 01 Aug 2005, 19:25

silkov wrote: you can be one height one day and another the next day!. .. a lot of it depends on the weather..

I didn't know about the weather, the other thing is gravity - you are a little higher in the morning than in the evening (after whole day which you spenyd mostly sitting, staying and walking, with gravity working on your spine and compressing the space between... well, I hope you know between what, since it is as far as my English goes).

Cojimar 1945 · Post by **Cojimar 1945** » 06 Aug 2005, 13:14

I understand that people's measurements may often be exaggerated but other sources suggest Jess Willard, Joe Louis and Jack Johnson are actually shorter than boxrec indicates which suggests the other reports are not exaggerations compared to boxrec's stats.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 06 Aug 2005, 16:13

Cojimar 1945 wrote:I understand that people's measurements may often be exaggerated but other sources suggest Jess Willard, Joe Louis and Jack Johnson are actually shorter than boxrec indicates which suggests the other reports are not exaggerations compared to boxrec's stats.

What sources?.....

Cojimar 1945 · Post by **Cojimar 1945** » 06 Aug 2005, 17:34

Some sources that come to mind are the now-deceased editor of Ring Magazine, the boxing Hall of Fame book, Joe Louis's autobiography and a book called "Super Fists".

barry · Post by **barry** » 06 Aug 2005, 23:26

>>>Ring Magazine, the boxing Hall of Fame book, Joe Louis's autobiography and a book called "Super Fists".<<<

All of which are secondary sources that hold about the lightest credibility when researching a fighters career...the Tale of the Tape that was printed in newspapers is the best place to get such information, but a lot of times measurements change from fight to fight and also a lot of times the tale of the tape just wasn't printed, I usually take several heights from various resources and choose the number that is dead in the middle, but there are a lot of intangibles for physical measurements..such as did the fighter have on shoes for a particular measurement, or was he barefoot.

Cojimar 1945 · Post by **Cojimar 1945** » 07 Aug 2005, 15:38

Some of the sources seemed fairly reliable. Joe Louis's autobiography gave the tale of the tape for Louis vs Baer and "Super Fists" gave the tale of the tape for Ali vs Frazier.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 07 Aug 2005, 16:22

Cojimar 1945 wrote:Some of the sources seemed fairly reliable. Joe Louis's autobiography gave the tale of the tape for Louis vs Baer and "Super Fists" gave the tale of the tape for Ali vs Frazier.

I think you may have a point... I usually go by the Ring Record books... Louis is down in that as being 6 feet 1 3/4 and Marciano is down as 5 feet 10 and 1/4 ....in the box rec files Louis is down as 6 feet 2 and Marciano as 5 feet 11. Having said that there are variations in Louis height in different editions of THE RING Record book.... he is down as being 6 feet 1 and 1/2 in another edition and Marciano is 5 feet 11 in the same edition.
Maybe its the shoes and socks thing and the weather!...

8)

Ric · Post by **Ric** » 07 Aug 2005, 18:32

silkov wrote: I'd also hope that perhaps in time every record will be accompanied by a photo of the boxer where possible as it is always fascinating to see what fighters look like, especially the oldtimers!.

Your wish has been coming true since JohnShep inaugurated the Encyclopedia late December. For many of the better-known old-timers (and some not-as-known), photos and other factoids are now available. If you see an "open" blue book Wiki icon

below his profile, odds are there is some information and/or pic of that boxer.

Such as, for example, Jim Jeffries:
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=009022

Cojimar 1945 · Post by **Cojimar 1945** » 11 Aug 2005, 13:53

Almost all the sources I have come across put Louis's height at 6ft 1 1/2 in but a height of 5ft 10 1/4 in for Marciano appears to be accurate. The fact that Ali's reach is listed as 83 inches is more troublesome because I am almost positive his reach was 80 inches.

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