Roberto Duran vs Ray Leonard II, no Mas.

robsteth · Post by **robsteth** » 17 Sep 2002, 22:28

Duran beat ray fair and sqaure in in the first bout. But he went back to panama and pigged out and went up to 195 pounds, by the way he is only 5'7'' so that is very heavy and had to come way down in weight. Ray knew he balloned up so scheduled a quick rematch 7 months later and duran had to diet up a storm and was somewhat out of shape. Ray was advised by both his trainer not to fight duran right away but he did knowing duran was super heavy. The rest is history, the effect the dieting had on duran is really impossible to measure but ray changed his style and boxed perfectly and duran quit. He said he had cramps but tend to think he was just frustrated. I asked chris byrd and andy sample about that bout and sample said he thinks duran actually had cramps where as chris stated duran was frustrated. Is it possible for a body to cramp up like that, he did not eat for several days and after the weigh in pigged out on steaka ndorange juice so the food could have effected his body. I tend to think he was frustrated.. Smart move by Ray.

Ringside · Post by **Ringside** » 03 Oct 2002, 22:17

Did you know that Duran actually never said "No mas", he said "Yo no voy a seguir peleando con ese payaso" (I'm not going to keep fighting with that clown)... YES, he was frustated, NO, it wasn't because of the weight loss....there are many dark sides in this story...

Prometheus74 · Post by **Prometheus74** » 03 Oct 2002, 22:41

Robsteth, I thought you were moving to another site. When I saw your post I thought to myself "No mas." Take your non-current events somewhere else, clown.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 26 Jul 2005, 08:35

Ringside wrote: YES, he was frustated, NO, it wasn't because of the weight loss....there are many dark sides in this story...

Okay, big big BUMP! Forgive me... This line bothers me. I ahev tried PM'ing Ringside but got no reply. What does he mean???

The Duran-Leonard series still captivates me and to this day I still think Duran's win in the first fight is one of the greatest achievements in any sport ever.

If anybody can shed some light on Ringside's "dark sides" then please do and satisfy my curiosity.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 26 Jul 2005, 08:40

Duran reputedly had the shits really badly before the fight.

Leonard fought a dumb fight against Duran first time round, going toe to toe after Duran insulted his wife.

Leonard boxerd clever second time round literally and metaphorically, by insisting on a quick rematch when he heard Duran was fat as fornicate, knowing Duran couldn't resist the payday and that Leonard could afford to avoid the rematch if it wasn't on his terms as he was the big star.

uptconnect · Post by **uptconnect** » 26 Jul 2005, 08:48

This was the first fight I ever went to.
I was young and impressionable and Sugar Ray Leonard became my favorite athelete for a time after my feeling the energy of the venue and falling in love with his showmanship.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 26 Jul 2005, 08:51

Cheers James

I have heard some of these rumours before. When Ringsider said "dark sides" I imagined something a bit more sinister.

What bothers me is that I read so much about the second fight and how amazing it was etc... Then when I saw it I just didn't see the total mastery that was being touted in the boxing history books. I checked the scoring and leonard is a head by 2 rounds on 2 cards and 1 round on the other.

Ray was a great fighter but never one to miss an opportunity to promote himself.

What's your take on the personalities involved?

Mistachill · Post by **Mistachill** » 26 Jul 2005, 10:45

You are so right! I actually saw this fight for the first time last year and it was nothing like I thought. Ray was winning, but it was a fairly even fight with Ray doing a lot of dancing, moving, jabbing and Duran stalking him. When they did mix it up, Duran got the best of it just as often as Leonard.

But it is true that Leonard made Duran look foolish in the 7th round (I think) when he started clowning him. I don't imagine anyone EVER dreamed of doing that to Duran.

I don't know what to believe regarding the cramps story. If you check out what happens after he quit, Duran didn't look like he was under any physical distress. But between rounds they starting putting an icepack on his stomach around the 5th or 6th round.

But if he was so distressed, that last hard punch to the stomach Leonard landed as Duran was walking away when he quit, you would think it would've had more of an affect on Duran. He reacted like nothing happened.

Then the floor boards on part of the ring broke in the middle of the fight. That was just a strange night all the way around.

Ezzard wrote:Cheers James

I have heard some of these rumours before. When Ringsider said "dark sides" I imagined something a bit more sinister.

What bothers me is that I read so much about the second fight and how amazing it was etc... Then when I saw it I just didn't see the total mastery that was being touted in the boxing history books. I checked the scoring and leonard is a head by 2 rounds on 2 cards and 1 round on the other.

Ray was a great fighter but never one to miss an opportunity to promote himself.

What's your take on the personalities involved?

yays51 · Post by **yays51** » 26 Jul 2005, 16:40

robsteth wrote:Is it possible for a body to cramp up like that.

A friend of mine had that happen to him once, way back in high school. He had qualified for a national tournament in wrestling. He decided to drop down another two weight classes because he figured he had a better shot of winning. During his semifinal match, his entire body cramped up on him, literally. He couldn't move and had to withstand the pain until it went away. It looked quite painful.

mr cool breeze · Post by **mr cool breeze** » 26 Jul 2005, 20:02

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Duran reputedly had the shits really badly before the fight.

Leonard fought a dumb fight against Duran first time round, going toe to toe after Duran insulted his wife.

Leonard boxerd clever second time round literally and metaphorically, by insisting on a quick rematch when he heard Duran was fat as fornicate, knowing Duran couldn't resist the payday and that Leonard could afford to avoid the rematch if it wasn't on his terms as he was the big star.

Oh, so we're trying to take away glory from the SRL now huh??

SUGAR RAY LEONARD WAS THE BEST WELTERWEIGHT EVER! Period

dws · Post by **dws** » 26 Jul 2005, 20:18

Let me preface this by saying that Duran is my favorite fighter and I have always hated Leonard.Have you guys ever seen that HBO boxing special Little Giants?It featured a segment on Duran(Leonard as well) and when asked about the rematch Duran's long time friend Luis ? said he himself made up the stomach cramps story and that Duran just quit and that's all that happened,he just quit.I doubt even Duran can explain it,much less his friend.I don't feel it detracts from Duran's greatness one iota,anymore than getting coldcocked by Hearns does,but I'm sure others disagree.

lumpymo · Post by **lumpymo** » 26 Jul 2005, 21:51

mr cool breeze wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:Duran reputedly had the shits really badly before the fight.

Leonard fought a dumb fight against Duran first time round, going toe to toe after Duran insulted his wife.

Leonard boxerd clever second time round literally and metaphorically, by insisting on a quick rematch when he heard Duran was fat as fornicate, knowing Duran couldn't resist the payday and that Leonard could afford to avoid the rematch if it wasn't on his terms as he was the big star.

Oh, so we're trying to take away glory from the SRL now huh??

SUGAR RAY LEONARD WAS THE BEST WELTERWEIGHT EVER! Period

No SRL fought the first fight cause thats the way he did fight, and Duran made the fight that way, close by cutting off the ring and neutralizing any movement SRL would have had, and he didn't move much in fights anyways. SRL always when possible tried to get everything in his favour leading up to fights, ring size, gloves, referee, you name it.
What glory coolbreeze, running around the ring like a rabbit refusing to fight, thats your glory? Yeah SRL was a real class act, how long do you think he would have lasted against the one and only "Sugar Man", thats Robinson in case your wondering, who was unbeatable as a welterweight when fighting welterweights, his only loss came against a middleweight top contender name of Jake Lamotta.
The best welterweight ... right!

cheers M.O.

Slugout · Post by **Slugout** » 26 Jul 2005, 22:01

mr cool breeze · Post by **mr cool breeze** » 26 Jul 2005, 22:05

lumpymo wrote: No SRL fought the first fight cause thats the way he did fight, and Duran made the fight that way, close by cutting off the ring and neutralizing any movement SRL would have had, and he didn't move much in fights anyways. SRL always when possible tried to get everything in his favour leading up to fights, ring size, gloves, referee, you name it.
What glory coolbreeze, running around the ring like a rabbit refusing to fight, thats your glory? Yeah SRL was a real class act, how long do you think he would have lasted against the one and only "Sugar Man", thats Robinson in case your wondering, who was unbeatable as a welterweight when fighting welterweights, his only loss came against a middleweight top contender name of Jake Lamotta.
The best welterweight ... right!

cheers M.O.

I guess we can agree to disagree then there huh!

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » 27 Jul 2005, 05:50

Duran did baloon to 195-200lbs after the first fight.

Leonard and his ppl knew this would happen and manipulated a quick return knowing Duran would have difficuly making 147lbs.

A diet of laxatives did get him down but sapped most of his strength.

Ray Arcel should have delayed the return to allow Duran to make the weight naturally.

But money talks, and a guaranteed $6m for turning up talks louder so poor Roberto was made to eat laxatives right up to fight night.

He made the weight, them went out for a meal which caused the cramps.

I agree with lumpymo on the first fight, Roberto forced SRL to fight the way he did and in doing so defeated him.

And yes I watched the fight live and I agree he never said "No Mas" but he did make the comment about fighting the clown.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 27 Jul 2005, 08:56

mr cool breeze wrote:
Oh, so we're trying to take away glory from the SRL now huh??

Well Ray was a truly great fighter and he won the fight but I'm not sure how glorious it was.

Having read the reports and then watched the fight it seems to me like someone did a huge PR job for Leonard. The first fight was the better fight and had the better performances.

Like I said Ray is winning but he's hardly mastering Duran, as seems to be suggested in fight reports and history books

uptconnect · Post by **uptconnect** » 27 Jul 2005, 10:57

Ezzard wrote:
mr cool breeze wrote:
Oh, so we're trying to take away glory from the SRL now huh??

Well Ray was a truly great fighter and he won the fight but I'm not sure how glorious it was.

Having read the reports and then watched the fight it seems to me like someone did a huge PR job for Leonard. The first fight was the better fight and had the better performances.

Like I said Ray is winning but he's hardly mastering Duran, as seems to be suggested in fight reports and history books

Making a guy quit might as well be called mastery.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 27 Jul 2005, 11:23

I think the quitting was all to do with Duran, his physical and emotional state and not that much to do with leonard. ray was toying with him in that round but that was his thing.

When the figth was over I didn't think that Ray was necessarily the better fighter.

uptconnect · Post by **uptconnect** » 27 Jul 2005, 11:26

Ezzard wrote:I think the quitting was all to do with Duran, his physical and emotional state and not that much to do with leonard. ray was toying with him in that round but that was his thing.

When the figth was over I didn't think that Ray was necessarily the better fighter.

Being that he was the only fighter in the ring who would continue, I think that means he was the better fighter. At least on that night he was.
Should Ray have gotten the loss??

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 27 Jul 2005, 12:11

uptconnect wrote: Being that he was the only fighter in the ring who would continue, I think that means he was the better fighter. At least on that night he was.
Should Ray have gotten the loss??

I'm not suggesting that Ray didn't win the fight (and you know I'm not!). I'm pointing out that the way the fight has been written up and gone into boxing history does not reflect what is represented in the film of the fight.

Duran was not swatting thin air for 6 rounds and Ray was not Rudolph Nureyev. My point is that there is a discrepancy between what is reported and what actually happened.

Mistachill · Post by **Mistachill** » 27 Jul 2005, 12:27

That happens a lot in boxing. Read the accounts of Leonard vs Hearns II, then take out a sheet of paper, watch the fight again and score it yourself. Inspite of the two knockdowns that fight was a lot closer than people make it out to be.

Ezzard wrote:
uptconnect wrote: Being that he was the only fighter in the ring who would continue, I think that means he was the better fighter. At least on that night he was.
Should Ray have gotten the loss??
I'm not suggesting that Ray didn't win the fight (and you know I'm not!). I'm pointing out that the way the fight has been written up and gone into boxing history does not reflect what is represented in the film of the fight.

Duran was not swatting thin air for 6 rounds and Ray was not Rudolph Nureyev. My point is that there is a discrepancy between what is reported and what actually happened.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 29 Jul 2005, 10:02

Mistachill

I agree with you... i think Tommy shades it but it's not a robbery. Leonard should have at least one 10-8 round becasue Hearns is hanging in there at times.

I knew hearns wanted the fight badly and when the match was made I thought Ray was just doing the same thign again, waiting for a live opponent to look so past it that they had little chance. I was a big ray fan up until after the Hagler bout and then he was obviously going after old men or club fighters to prove his worth. After the second Hearns fight I think ray should have quit. I also think he should have have given Hagler a rematch and Hearns a rematch much earlier than he did.

When Hearns scores that first KD you can see him just swelling with pride and delight. He'd had to walk around with a lot of hurt for a long time. the first fight is great too. Hearns outboxes the boxer and then Leonard out punches the puncher, great stuff.

Mistachill · Post by **Mistachill** » 29 Jul 2005, 16:36

If nothing else, Ray was smart. He knew he couldn't pull off another Hagler miracle in a rematch. And he knew he was very fortunate to pull out the first Hearns fight in the last two rounds because he had big problems with Hearns' size. And when he fought Don Lalonde he pretty much did what Roy Jones did in the Ruiz fight, hand picked a light heavyweight he could handle just to get the belt.

Its a double edged sword, yeah we criticize Jones and Leonard for hand picking opponents late in their career, but they'll both probably live long lives without slurred speech or brain damage unlike Hearns or Meldrick Taylor and probably Holyfield.

Ezzard wrote:Mistachill

I agree with you... i think Tommy shades it but it's not a robbery. Leonard should have at least one 10-8 round becasue Hearns is hanging in there at times.

I knew hearns wanted the fight badly and when the match was made I thought Ray was just doing the same thign again, waiting for a live opponent to look so past it that they had little chance. I was a big ray fan up until after the Hagler bout and then he was obviously going after old men or club fighters to prove his worth. After the second Hearns fight I think ray should have quit. I also think he should have have given Hagler a rematch and Hearns a rematch much earlier than he did.

When Hearns scores that first KD you can see him just swelling with pride and delight. He'd had to walk around with a lot of hurt for a long time. the first fight is great too. Hearns outboxes the boxer and then Leonard out punches the puncher, great stuff.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 08 Aug 2005, 11:36

It's a very good point you raise Mistachill. Leonard has walked away pretty mucn intact it seems. I don't want to turn this into an anti-Leonard thread because he was a great fighter who deserves the utmost respect. I just think Ray's career was composed as a great list of wins rather than the result of a great career.

The only real defeat on his career was against Duran. He learned more in that fight than any other. He also proved his point. I think losing a fight is not a catastrophe for a young fighter, not by any means, lots of the greats lost fights.

Refusing Hearns and Hagler a rematch was a bit like scoring first and then taking your ball home and refusing to play. He only agreed to the 2nd Hearns fight once Tommy looked very shaky, as if he'd slipped a lot. The 3rd Duran fight was never going to be competitive.

Ray was a truly great fighter and there really was no need for him to be so ungracious with rematches.

vagabundo55 · Post by **vagabundo55** » 08 Aug 2005, 17:38

Duran never said, "No mas." it was just a lie concocted by the media. As for Leonard being the greatest welterweight... I think someone's forgetting Sugar Ray Robinson. Anyway, honestly I don't think as Leonard as a legendary fighter I think of him as a great fighter who had great management and in my opinion he lost to Hagler. (I think he's overrated but then, he can still kick my ass

) Anyway, he never said, "No mas."

Roberto Duran vs Ray Leonard II, no Mas.

Roberto Duran vs Ray Leonard II, no Mas.

Re: Roberto Duran vs Ray Leonard II, no Mas.