DOES FROCH EQUAL CALZAGHE IF HE BEATS WARD ??

[jameswilson]

Both great fighters, and we could compare opponents and achievements all day long, but for me, Calzaghe is the better figter; more stamina, broader skill range, faster, relentless, great movement. That is not to diminish Froch's ability and ultimately unless Joe returns and fights Froch its all subjective anyway. Only thing I'd add is a point about the Froch / Taylor fight; great that Froch managed to pull off the win, but Taylor completely outboxed him.

Yeah but Herol Graham completely outboxed Julian Jackson didn't he. Out of interest how many points up did you have Taylor going into the last.

[LeedsLad]

I think people retain the frustration that Calzaghe wasted such a high proportion of his career fighting stiffs, whereas Froch has had a career with risky fight after risky fight.

Six genuine world level fights (in a row) plus Magee who is just short of world class, and now a 7th next weekend. There should be more to come too.

[Matt W]

Both great fighters, and we could compare opponents and achievements all day long, but for me, Calzaghe is the better figter; more stamina, broader skill range, faster, relentless, great movement. That is not to diminish Froch's ability and ultimately unless Joe returns and fights Froch its all subjective anyway. Only thing I'd add is a point about the Froch / Taylor fight; great that Froch managed to pull off the win, but Taylor completely outboxed him.

Yeah but Herol Graham completely outboxed Julian Jackson didn't he. Out of interest how many points up did you have Taylor going into the last.

And Man Utd were losing to Bayern Munich in the last minute of the Champions League Final, and Carl Lewis was behind until the last 5 metres of the 1991 world championship final; so what? It's the outcome that matters.

[Bricks]

Would calzaghe have beaten all of froch's opponents? Most people would say yes. Would froch have beaten all of calzaghes opponents? No. He wouldn't beat hopkins and he wouldn't have beaten that version of kessler (nor did he beat an inferior version).

People discredit joe's win over lacy because lacy did nothing after he lost to calzaghe. Shouldn't we wait to see how some of carls victims do in the future before we consider them to be great victories? If dirrel goes on to be a dominant world champion then of course it reflects well on carl, but what if he never wins a world title? What if abraham retires having been outclassed in 3 of his 4 fights at supermiddle? would they really be great wins?

yeah damn right froch wouldnt beat hopkins.......Joe didnt either....he got floored in the first and shut out for 6 rounds, and than when hopkins tied he took 4 of the last 6 by pitty patty slaps with nary a clean shot in evidence....that fight was a travesty, Hopkins won it and a load of my fellow white brits refuse to accept that cos of hopkins i wont lose to a "white man" speech before the fight

[LeedsLad]

Both great fighters, and we could compare opponents and achievements all day long, but for me, Calzaghe is the better figter; more stamina, broader skill range, faster, relentless, great movement. That is not to diminish Froch's ability and ultimately unless Joe returns and fights Froch its all subjective anyway. Only thing I'd add is a point about the Froch / Taylor fight; great that Froch managed to pull off the win, but Taylor completely outboxed him.

Yeah but Herol Graham completely outboxed Julian Jackson didn't he. Out of interest how many points up did you have Taylor going into the last.

And Man Utd were losing to Bayern Munich in the last minute of the Champions League Final, and Carl Lewis was behind until the last 5 metres of the 1991 world championship final; so what? It's the outcome that matters.

That's his point.

People try and discredit Carl's win over Taylor because he was behind on the cards at the time and had only seconds to spare.

The tide turned from about the 7th onwards, and Taylor was hanging on for the last couple.

Last time I checked a championship fight is 12 3 minute rounds, Froch stopped him in the 12th, so he won. Nothing else needs to be said.

Sport is filled with late comebacks/last gasp winners, that's just another example.

[fasteddie]

30. Richie Woodhall Andre Ward
29. Omar Sheika Glen Johnson
28. David Starie Arthur Abraham
27. Rick Thornberry Mikkel Kessler
26. Robin Reid Andre Dirrell
25. Juan Ferreyra Jermain Taylor
24. Branko Sobot Jean Pascal
23. Chris Eubank Albert Rybacki
22. Luciano Torres Robin Reid
21. Tyler Hughes Sergei Tatevosyan
20. Carlos Christie Tony Dodson
19. Pat Lawlor Brian Magee
18. Warren Stowe Dale Westerman
17. Mark Delaney Ruben Groenwald
16. Anthony Brooks Matthew Barney
15. Guy Stanford Henry Porras
14. Stephen Wilson Damon Hague
13. Nick Manners Mark Woolnough
12. Tyrone Jackson Charles Adamu
11. Robert Curry Dmitri Adamovich
10. Bobbie Joe Edwards Alan Page
9. Frank Minton Vage Koccharyan
8. Trevor Ambrose Michael Monaghan
7. Mark Lee Dawson Varuz Davytan
6. Karl Barwise Valery Odin
5. Darren Littlewood Mike Duffield
4. Martin Rosamond Paul Bonson
3. Spencer Alton Darren Covill
2. Paul Mason Ojay Abrahams
1. Paul Hanlon Michael Pinnock

looking at these records i would say froch has the harder record,only my opinion

[fasteddie]

Taylor was shot to pieces after the Pavlik fight.
Froch was less than 15seconds from defeat in that fight.
And Abraham at s-middle was a very poor fighter. No work rate at all.
Its also valid to mention that Johnson has always been regarded as a good loser.
Dirrel .... umm? ... Remind me of his achievments again ...
The Pascal win was good. But Hopkins kinda puts that into perspective really..
And the fact an old Kessler still had enough to beat Froch will always be the sticking point for me.

The positive about Froch is that he is tough. Nobody will have an easy night with him as long as he's standing.

Once the Ward fight is over. If Carl hopefully wins, he'll have Bute ... then the division is done. And i see Froch moving up to face Cleverly.
And thats where I see Carl being ground to a halt!
There is absolutely no way he beats Cleverly!!

kessler beat in a very close fight an under parr froch,froch had all his camp disrupted with the ash cloud plus had a perferated ear drum,15 seconds away from defeat in the jermaine taylor fight? tell me this (just a comparison) who won the 1999 champions league final? man utd and they were 2 minutes away from losing that match,my point is the records show froch won the fight. pascal beat hopkins so that puts calzaghes win into perspective too right? and tell me what and who has cleverley done/beat to suggest that he would beat froch? froch's toughness is his asset so i think he would out tough cleverley

[nobby_nobbins]

30. Richie Woodhall Andre Ward
29. Omar Sheika Glen Johnson
28. David Starie Arthur Abraham
27. Rick Thornberry Mikkel Kessler
26. Robin Reid Andre Dirrell
25. Juan Ferreyra Jermain Taylor
24. Branko Sobot Jean Pascal
23. Chris Eubank Albert Rybacki
22. Luciano Torres Robin Reid
21. Tyler Hughes Sergei Tatevosyan
20. Carlos Christie Tony Dodson
19. Pat Lawlor Brian Magee
18. Warren Stowe Dale Westerman
17. Mark Delaney Ruben Groenwald
16. Anthony Brooks Matthew Barney
15. Guy Stanford Henry Porras
14. Stephen Wilson Damon Hague
13. Nick Manners Mark Woolnough
12. Tyrone Jackson Charles Adamu
11. Robert Curry Dmitri Adamovich
10. Bobbie Joe Edwards Alan Page
9. Frank Minton Vage Koccharyan
8. Trevor Ambrose Michael Monaghan
7. Mark Lee Dawson Varuz Davytan
6. Karl Barwise Valery Odin
5. Darren Littlewood Mike Duffield
4. Martin Rosamond Paul Bonson
3. Spencer Alton Darren Covill
2. Paul Mason Ojay Abrahams
1. Paul Hanlon Michael Pinnock

This list speaks volumes. Very little padding on Froch's resume. He's taken on the best fight after fight and that is the stuff of real champions. I liked Calzaghe but he rarely left the comfort zone and consequently left much of his vast potential unfufilled. He only dared leave his backyard late in his career after watching Ricky Hatton reach for the stars in the US. Froch's attitude to the sport puts Calzaghe to shame.

[yiddo14]

What about Taylor beating B-Hop twice? If we are comparing respective opponents and their fights against each other let's not forget Joe's stand out win.

If Froch beats Ward then rematched Kessler and beats him like I think he would, then his record surpasses Calzaghe's.

Calzaghe beats Froch though. Not as wide as some think but he still beats him.

[yiddo14]

Froch can beat Ward but he can't beat Cleverly?



He'd box Nathan's head off.

No, he would take nathans head off! He is a pretty good fighter but over rated. Not a genuine world champion and I don't think he ever will be.

[NazNaci1]

30. Richie Woodhall Andre Ward
29. Omar Sheika Glen Johnson
28. David Starie Arthur Abraham
27. Rick Thornberry Mikkel Kessler
26. Robin Reid Andre Dirrell
25. Juan Ferreyra Jermain Taylor
24. Branko Sobot Jean Pascal
23. Chris Eubank Albert Rybacki
22. Luciano Torres Robin Reid
21. Tyler Hughes Sergei Tatevosyan
20. Carlos Christie Tony Dodson
19. Pat Lawlor Brian Magee
18. Warren Stowe Dale Westerman
17. Mark Delaney Ruben Groenwald
16. Anthony Brooks Matthew Barney
15. Guy Stanford Henry Porras
14. Stephen Wilson Damon Hague
13. Nick Manners Mark Woolnough
12. Tyrone Jackson Charles Adamu
11. Robert Curry Dmitri Adamovich
10. Bobbie Joe Edwards Alan Page
9. Frank Minton Vage Koccharyan
8. Trevor Ambrose Michael Monaghan
7. Mark Lee Dawson Varuz Davytan
6. Karl Barwise Valery Odin
5. Darren Littlewood Mike Duffield
4. Martin Rosamond Paul Bonson
3. Spencer Alton Darren Covill
2. Paul Mason Ojay Abrahams
1. Paul Hanlon Michael Pinnock

No 23 is the only one Calzaghe has over Froch, Otherwise this listing speaks volumes and Froch is not done yet. As King Geo said, Calzaghe has a lot mediocrity or 'filler' on his resume.

[loaded_gloves]

I hold neither in particularly high regard, but I admire and will constantly refer back to (once he's retired) Carl Froch's ballsy attitude to fighting - anyone, anywhere, one after another. His approach to selecting opponents is pure old school whereas Calzaghe was from the school of stay at home, fight softies for a cheap title.

As far as fighters go, there is no comparison. Froch is good, very good for boxing. Calzaghe and his approach was bad, very bad, for boxing. Particularly the British scene.

[fasteddie]

pascal beat hopkins so that puts calzaghes win into perspective too right?

No he didn't.

oops yes it was md wasnt it

[NazNaci1]

Omar Shieka beat Glen Johnson before the Calzaghe fight, so you should at least add 24 too.

Well, that Calzaghe win was another 'premature', flurry, slap, slap stoppage and he did pull out 3 times from fighting Glenn but ok, you can have that one.

[Quixall]

Would calzaghe have beaten all of froch's opponents? Most people would say yes. Would froch have beaten all of calzaghes opponents? No. He wouldn't beat hopkins and he wouldn't have beaten that version of kessler (nor did he beat an inferior version).

People discredit joe's win over lacy because lacy did nothing after he lost to calzaghe. Shouldn't we wait to see how some of carls victims do in the future before we consider them to be great victories? If dirrel goes on to be a dominant world champion then of course it reflects well on carl, but what if he never wins a world title? What if abraham retires having been outclassed in 3 of his 4 fights at supermiddle? would they really be great wins?

yeah damn right froch wouldnt beat hopkins.......Joe didnt either....he got floored in the first and shut out for 6 rounds, and than when hopkins tied he took 4 of the last 6 by pitty patty slaps with nary a clean shot in evidence....that fight was a travesty, Hopkins won it and a load of my fellow white brits refuse to accept that cos of hopkins i wont lose to a "white man" speech before the fight

I'm a white Brit.....................I have said again and again that Hopkins won that fight, imo, by a round !!

[NazNaci1]

Omar Shieka beat Glen Johnson before the Calzaghe fight, so you should at least add 24 too.

Well, that Calzaghe win was another 'premature', flurry, slap, slap stoppage and he did pull out 3 times from fighting Glenn but ok, you can have that one.

He pulled out of fighting him three times? So what? Wladimir Kltschko pulled out of fighting Dereck Chisora twice, he must be scared of him!

Yeah but Wlad went on to fight Haye, potentially a more difficult fight. Who did Calzaghe go onto fight? No doubt some stellar guy that Warren suggested could give him a fight but in reality was a load of tosh. Johnson back then, would have been a real test.

[jameswilson]

No he didn't.

oops yes it was md wasnt it

The one card that didn't have the first fight a draw had it for Hopkins.

OK, the judge furthest to the right had round 1 10-9 to Pascal. In my opinion this is ridiculous, I aint a judge and never will be, but I think if a guy doesn't get knocked down, to score a round 10-8 can only be done in extreme cases, and if a guy does knock another guy down then it should only be scored 10-9 in extreme cases. Hopkins didn't dominate the rest of the round enough to warrant it being 10-9 that score in round 1 is fornicating ridiculous. So if that round was scored properly as a 10-8 to Pascal it doesn't change the result but does change the result that he had.

[fasteddie]

oops yes it was md wasnt it

The one card that didn't have the first fight a draw had it for Hopkins.

OK, the judge furthest to the right had round 1 10-9 to Pascal. In my opinion this is ridiculous, I aint a judge and never will be, but I think if a guy doesn't get knocked down, to score a round 10-8 can only be done in extreme cases, and if a guy does knock another guy down then it should only be scored 10-9 in extreme cases. Hopkins didn't dominate the rest of the round enough to warrant it being 10-9 that score in round 1 is effing ridiculous. So if that round was scored properly as a 10-8 to Pascal it doesn't change the result but does change the result that he had.

yes well spotted i didnt notice that so it would of been split decision draw wouldnt it?

[NazNaci1]

He pulled out of fighting him three times? So what? Wladimir Kltschko pulled out of fighting Dereck Chisora twice, he must be scared of him!

Yeah but Wlad went on to fight Haye, potentially a more difficult fight. Who did Calzaghe go onto fight? No doubt some stellar guy that Warren suggested could give him a fight but in reality was a load of tosh. Johnson back then, would have been a real test.

When? When he was losing four on the bounce to Ottke, Vanderpool, Branco and Sheika?

Depends, if you watch the fights in question and believe he lost, then fine. I don't think he lost to Ottke, Branco and Sheika. I haven't seen the Vanderpool fight, so I can't comment on that.

[LeedsLad]

Hopkins won most of the first round of the first Pascal fight.

To score it 10-8 by default is just lazy scoring.

[tonyevs]

Froch ain't ever gonna fight Calzaghe ..

Froch deserves huge credit for the list of hard fights he's had. But lets not forget, or over look, it has been the only route open to him.
Bute was able to side step the Super6 because he has a big following ... Carl's following is his mother , girlfriend and 3 distant cousins..

Froch is just one of those guys who turns the average guy off. He has character - but an irritating character.

If Calzaghe was as unpopular, he too would have had to go the route Carl has done.
Froch hasn't looked to go the hard route on purpose - it was forced on him because it was the only route open to him.

The s-middle division is weak. Froch, Ward and Bute are the top guys ... What does that really say?

[yiddo14]

Calzaghe WAS unpopular! He became popular on the tailcoat of Hatton. 30 odd fights in he was fighting in front of tiny crowds.

Direll, Kessler, Abraham, Bute, Ward, Froch...s-mid is far from weak. Calzaghe suffered because of how weak it was in his era, Froch had no other options because to win and retain a title he could only do so by fighting top fighters. No gimmes out there now, unless you are Bute and like to sit on the WBO.

Froch should be a household name. He has character, is intelligent and he is always great value in the ring. His problem, and I loathe to say it, was not signing with allegedly ( only in this respect, in terms of progression as a boxer he has done the correct thing ) who would have given him far more exposure.

Still, it's not x-factor. Froch is fight first, hype second. Refreshing attitude in today's world where everyone seemingly craves to be a celebrity.

[Quixall]

Calzaghe WAS unpopular! He became popular on the tailcoat of Hatton. 30 odd fights in he was fighting in front of tiny crowds.

Direll, Kessler, Abraham, Bute, Ward, Froch...s-mid is far from weak. Calzaghe suffered because of how weak it was in his era, Froch had no other options because to win and retain a title he could only do so by fighting top fighters. No gimmes out there now, unless you are Bute and like to sit on the WBO.

Froch should be a household name. He has character, is intelligent and he is always great value in the ring. His problem, and I loathe to say it, was not signing with allegedly ( only in this respect, in terms of progression as a boxer he has done the correct thing ) who would have given him far more exposure.

Still, it's not x-factor. Froch is fight first, hype second. Refreshing attitude in today's world where everyone seemingly craves to be a celebrity.

Agreed

[LeedsLad]

If Froch had signed with Allegedly he'd never have had the run that he's had.

He might still be unbeaten, but he'd be considered a fraud who'd never fought anyone other than whoever he beat to win a vacant title. Probably not someone as good as Pascal.

[tonyevs]

How can anybody argue the s-middle division is anything other than weak when you argue for Abraham, Dirrel and a 2011 Kessler as the top tier of the division??

I agree that Calzaghe wasn't hugely popular - just Froch outside of these forums is an even less draw.

Froch has my utmost respect. He is the best value british world champion we have today.
But its often assumed his route was taken on purpose. Which is naive to think so. If he could have taken the Calzaghe route of low risk - high reward he certainly would have.
Unfortunatly, he lacks appeal .. any sizeable following ... and an influencial promoter.