Most complete Heavyweight

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Again, they obviously count on the scorecard, scorecards aren't the end all of the fight. Liston struggled to stop a guy who was fleeing for most of the fight, he didn't struggle to win.

[The Great John L]

Liston was truly a great fighter, who was very well schooled with good coordination and excellent power, but to me his average foot and hand speed precludes any consideration from the most him as the complete HW ever. It's a lot easier overcome things like a lack of a big punch, or limited body punching skills, but there are few things a fighter can do when confronted by an opponent with excellent skills and markedly suprior speed.

[raylawpc]

They can certainly be an indication of a fighter being frustrated by things not going as easily as planned. A low blow can throw a fighter off of his game. Three certainly can. They have to count when judging the closeness of a fight. If you aren't going to factor in point deductuons you might as well not have them. Just let a guy throw as many low blows as he wants.

The issue wasn't the score cards, the point of showing the scorecards was to counter your assertion that Machen "gave Liston a lot of trouble" when, in fact, the fight was not close. Machen got points not for doing anything; that was my point. By his own effort, he won maybe two rounds. And yes, Machen ran like a little girl in a defense-first frame of mind. His effort was so lame that he was booed by the crowd. Liston was not a popular fighter, and the fact the crowd booed Machen's effort shows just how poor that effort was.

[raylawpc]

Liston was truly a great fighter, who was very well schooled with good coordination and excellent power, but to me his average foot and hand speed precludes any consideration from the most him as the complete HW ever. It's a lot easier overcome things like a lack of a big punch, or limited body punching skills, but there are few things a fighter can do when confronted by an opponent with excellent skills and markedly suprior speed.

Sure you can . . . it's called "learning how to cut off the ring" which Liston, in his prime, did pretty well.

[raylawpc]

Again, they obviously count on the scorecard, scorecards aren't the end all of the fight. Liston struggled to stop a guy who was fleeing for most of the fight, he didn't struggle to win.

[The Great John L]

Liston was truly a great fighter, who was very well schooled with good coordination and excellent power, but to me his average foot and hand speed precludes any consideration from the most him as the complete HW ever. It's a lot easier overcome things like a lack of a big punch, or limited body punching skills, but there are few things a fighter can do when confronted by an opponent with excellent skills and markedly suprior speed.

Sure you can . . . it's called "learning how to cut off the ring" which Liston, in his prime, did pretty well.

As I noted Liston was well schooled, and yes he was pretty good at cutting off the ring. He was also one of the slowest footed ATG HWs, as the somewhat novice version of Ali showed.

My post was pointing out Liston’s most glaring weakness, as every other poster has done with every name entered in the “most complete HW sweepstakes”. I was also noting that some of the other weaknesses mentioned of other fighters, such as Holmes not being much of a body puncher, are more easily overcome than Liston’s intrinsic lack of speed.

[Ezzard]

For me this is a different argument than who is the best. You need to be able to execute all the punches effectively and with the correct technique. Footwork needs to be right.

Joe Louis could throw every single punch with text book technique.

[Ambling Alp]

Again, they obviously count on the scorecard, scorecards aren't the end all of the fight. Liston struggled to stop a guy who was fleeing for most of the fight, he didn't struggle to win.

raylaw, I wasn't the person saying that scorecards are the way to decide how a close a fight was, you were. Machen was fleeing for his life yet got nailed low several times. Neat trick.

[raylawpc]

Again, they obviously count on the scorecard, scorecards aren't the end all of the fight. Liston struggled to stop a guy who was fleeing for most of the fight, he didn't struggle to win.

raylaw, I wasn't the person saying that scorecards are the way to decide how a close a fight was, you were. Machen was fleeing for his life yet got nailed low several times. Neat trick.

Clearly, you didn't read my earlier message.

[Nile4000]

Greg Page, or Muhammad Ali.

[jrc26]

Are we only talking about technical issues? If George Foreman fought with his mind in his first career like he did in his second career, he might have went on winning forever. Other than his rage and thinking he was invincible I would call him flawless in his first go around.

[Elton John]

Joe louis seemed to have everything in place

[scallum]

This is no contest it is without doubt Ali. Speed , heart , chin , charisma and brilliant ring smarts allows Ali to defeat any heavy in history of the sport on his best day

[scallum]

Joe louis seemed to have everything in place

Joe Louis had very slow foot movement it seems. He would have big problems wit guys like Foreman and Liston if a former lightweight could have him on verge of getting knocked out. Joe would have an absolute nightmare vs Ali who just to quick. The level of Joe Louis competiors is really weak in comparisons to other greats.

[Boilermaker]

James J Jeffries might be worth a bit of consideration on this thread.

He has the size, the strength, the speed (depending on the news reports you read), the chin, the endurance. Good footwork, fights on the inside and outside with equal ability, Has one punch KO power when needed. Can clinch and wrestle with the best of them. Was extremely consistent and his record was as good as anyones in that he retired as undefeated world champion. Admittedly his style doesnt seem all that orthodox but it didnt seem to hinder him in results.

I think he might have the best claim, when i think about it.

[Cutman Scabbers]

Liston was not complete. He was slow. He couldn't handle Ali (Clay) at all, and had a lot of trouble against Machen.

If we're talking about Liston (and all the others) at his best, he was not slow.

['Frilla]

Holyfield is the most complete cruiserweight.

Ali would have to be the closest one to it. In and out of the ring.

[dempseyfire]

Liston was truly a great fighter, who was very well schooled with good coordination and excellent power, but to me his average foot and hand speed precludes any consideration from the most him as the complete HW ever. It's a lot easier overcome things like a lack of a big punch, or limited body punching skills, but there are few things a fighter can do when confronted by an opponent with excellent skills and markedly suprior speed.

Sure you can . . . it's called "learning how to cut off the ring" which Liston, in his prime, did pretty well.

As I noted Liston was well schooled, and yes he was pretty good at cutting off the ring. He was also one of the slowest footed ATG HWs, as the somewhat novice version of Ali showed.
.

?? How is being outsped by the fastest-footed HW ever in a young Ali showing one to be "among the slowest footed HWs?" And that fight was close at the time of the stoppage due to Liston's shoulder injury, so this revisionist history that (a past his prime) Sonny just couldn't handle Clay's speed is just hogwash (I had Sonny winning rounds 2 and 5 with round 4 even, giving Ali only a 1 point edge after 6 as did the majority at ringside)
Liston's handspeed at his best was above average and his footspeed was average, not slow.

This talk of the Machen fight is silly. Machen was an extremely talented and quick HW (who also had a good punch himself) who was forced into fighting a mostly defensive fight due to Sonny's consistent aggression and jab. That fight is actually an excellent demonstration of skilled pressure. Liston showed great conditioning by keeping up a high work-rate all 12 rounds . . consistently pumping the jab on the outside, and ripping the body with hooks on the inside whenever Machen tried to smother him. Machen won 2-3 rounds at the VERY MOST.

[raylawpc]

Sure you can . . . it's called "learning how to cut off the ring" which Liston, in his prime, did pretty well.

As I noted Liston was well schooled, and yes he was pretty good at cutting off the ring. He was also one of the slowest footed ATG HWs, as the somewhat novice version of Ali showed.
.

?? How is being outsped by the fastest-footed HW ever in a young Ali showing one to be "among the slowest footed HWs?" And that fight was close at the time of the stoppage due to Liston's shoulder injury, so this revisionist history that (a past his prime) Sonny just couldn't handle Clay's speed is just hogwash (I had Sonny winning rounds 2 and 5 with round 4 even, giving Ali only a 1 point edge after 6 as did the majority at ringside)
Liston's handspeed at his best was above average and his footspeed was average, not slow.

This talk of the Machen fight is silly. Machen was an extremely talented and quick HW (who also had a good punch himself) who was forced into fighting a mostly defensive fight due to Sonny's consistent aggression and jab. That fight is actually an excellent demonstration of skilled pressure. Liston showed great conditioning by keeping up a high work-rate all 12 rounds . . consistently pumping the jab on the outside, and ripping the body with hooks on the inside whenever Machen tried to smother him. Machen won 2-3 rounds at the VERY MOST.

But you are too generous to Machen . . . ;;-)

[SaadOffTheDeck]

This is no contest it is without doubt Ali. Speed , heart , chin , charisma and brilliant ring smarts allows Ali to defeat any heavy in history of the sport on his best day

He couldn't beat Joe Frazier on Joe's best day. No doubt about that.

[scallum]

Joe louis seemed to have everything in place

Joe Louis had very slow foot movement it seems. He would have big problems wit guys like Foreman and Liston if a former lightweight could have him on verge of getting knocked out. Joe would have an absolute nightmare vs Ali who just to quick. The level of Joe Louis competiors is really weak in comparisons to other greats.

Are these statements facts in your eyes or merely your opinion? If it's your opinion, no problem. But, if that's what you think are facts then

Why can Doug Jones, Henry Cooper & Ken Norton (all three aren't anywhere near the most agile HWs of all-time, IMO) give Ali/Clay fits, but, Joe Louis (who IMO is the best combination puncher of all-time at HW, with IMO much better ring IQ & power than Jones, Cooper & Norton) would have an absolute nightmare?

Louis combos looked impressive vs the very limited opposition he faced in his day. Louis was throughly outclassed and brutalized on at least one occasion at or near his prime. Clay / Ali faced much better Competiors at or near his prime and never was outclassed or brutalized.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Joe Frazier whipped Ali's ass every bit as brutally as Schmeling beat Joe. Of couse Ali was never able to come back and brutalize the guy who dominated him like Louis did. But anyone who thinks Joe's record is filled with weak opposition is pretty clueless to begin with.

Joe Louis combinations looked impressive shadow Boxing. From a technical standpoint he was far superior to Ali. As a trainer, I'm shocked you don't already know that. If you could pick one puncher in the history of the sport to emulate it should be Joe Louis. Ali had athletic advantages but downplaying the Brown Bomber's combos is like saying Hagler had an ok chin.

[raylawpc]

Joe louis seemed to have everything in place

Joe Louis had very slow foot movement it seems. He would have big problems wit guys like Foreman and Liston if a former lightweight could have him on verge of getting knocked out. Joe would have an absolute nightmare vs Ali who just to quick. The level of Joe Louis competiors is really weak in comparisons to other greats.

What former lightweight had the great Louis on the verge of a knockout?

[Giancarlo]

Joe Frazier whipped Ali's ass every bit as brutally as Schmeling beat Joe.

Fight of the Century was a lot more competitive than Schmeling - Louis (1).

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Joe Frazier whipped Ali's ass every bit as brutally as Schmeling beat Joe.

Fight of the Century was a lot more competitive than Schmeling - Louis (1).

It was certainly competitive, Ali also took a terrible beating. Ali/Frazier 2 was much more competitive than Louis/Schmeling 2. None of it is relevant. Don't get tied up in Scallum discussions, they are all inane.