Bob Fitzsimmons v Harry Greb

[Goodnight, Irene]

Dont you denigrate a great man! Well at least admit he was a better boxer than Chavez, wont you...

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Dont you denigrate a great man! Well at least admit he was a better boxer than Chavez, wont you...

He was one of the greater boxers I've ever seen. He would rate highly on a skill only list for me. Chavez is actually underrated in that department, but yes Finito was his technical superior. Though Chavez rates much higher for me. Probably top 50 to 75 against top 150-200.

[Boilermaker]

I certainly agree that power isnt a pre-requisite to greatness. I could name guys to the contrary all day.

As for just the top-20 men of all-time though, Im not sure off-hand.

I wouldn't argue with anyone who had Ali, Canzoneri, Gavilan, Pep, Griffith, Loughran, Rosenbloom, Whitaker, Ross, McClarnin or Villa in their top 20's. Many of them are in mine.

I hate to even say it, but I think rating Pep as highly as I always have goes a bit against my strictness on resume being the deciding factor at the absolute highest level. If you look at the guys he beat compared to the guys Griffith beat and lost closely too it's a slippery slope.

Those are all great fighters, but I do think many people lose sight at just how great a top 20 p 4 p fighter must be. I cant see any way that Rosenbloom and Griffith for example could possibly rank this highly. Just think about the likes of Armstrong, Greb, langford, Louis, hagler, Benny Leonard, Duran, Fitzsimmons, Wilde, Tunney, Moore, Charles, Robinson. And that isnt allowing for guys who had short but spectacular reigns like McGovern, Ketchell, Darcy or guys who were dominant but are totally underated today like Zale, Steele, Cerdan, Attell, Jimmy Barry, Both Joe Walcotts, or Jack Dempseys for that Matter, Jack Johnson, peter Jackson and Jim Corbett, Sullivan, Sandy Saddler, The list really is just endless and you have to do something really spectacular and out of the ordinary just to make the top 20. Some who miss out on the top 20 will have been easily the best fighters of their time in their own weight division.

[Goodnight, Irene]

To clarify, you saying Hagler could be in your top-20, but not Griffith?

[Boilermaker]

It's a typical poster that makes statements and then back tracks on them when he should just become enlightened by the answers and say Thank You. Holyfield and Walcott both hit harder than Ali and Frazier hit harder than all of them.

I will be honest. I have tried to play nicely with you, but you sound like a complete clown.

You dont like back tracking. And i will throw a few curve balls from time to see where they lead. Hence why i have asked some questions and got a few answers. I am open to be proved wrong if you back it up. But you dont back things up by making stupid statements like he has better resume or i think he hits harder or his opposition is higher quality, without actually at least mentioning something to back up that opinion. You strike me as someone who clearly thinks they know everything and clearly isnt interested in learning about boxing. You seem to just repeat the commonly held beliefs (many of which are often wrong) without giving any sort of thought as to whether your position might or might not be wrong. If you dont continually look to learn from this game and adapt your positions accordingly, you really are a fool. There are so many all time great fighters that are barely discussed today. Fitz happens to be probably the all time greatest fighter, and he isnt given anywhere near enough respect on most boxing boards. By this time next year, i dare say that he will be on this one.

I mean this is a man asking for one good reason how harry greb rates over Bob Fitzsimmons. Resume doesn't count, quality of opposition doesn't count. It's high grade trolling.

Where did i say resume doesnt count? Greb's resume is not as good as Fitzsimmons. Greb's quality of opposition is not as good as Fitzsimmons. End of story. You or whoever it was tried to argue otherwise and it was pointed out that Greb's best win (Tunney) was not as good as Fitz' best win (Corbett) even allowing for the fact that Tunney actually beat (or the very worst drew) overall with Greb, so Tunney wasnt really even a win. It is not surprising that no greb fans are trying to list the second third or fourth best wins of Grebs, because they will not be as good as Fitz' wins.

Let us not forget that virtually nobody went more than half a dozen rounds with a prime Fitzsimmons where as greb struggle to stop anyone short of the required distance.

But since you seem to like popular opinion so much, why dont you find me a newspaper link of say 3 people who saw both of these fighters fight and which says that Greb was a better fighter than fitzsimmons. It shouldnt be too hard because you seem to think (incorrectly) that Greb has a better resume than Fitz. I will look forward to reading these articles from someone who has seen both fight.

[Boilermaker]

To clarify, you saying Hagler could be in your top-20, but not Griffith?

I really dont see how Griffith could be rated ahead of hagler. How would you justify it?

[Boilermaker]

Top-line power should mean guys at the top...Foreman, Louis, Liston, Tyson, etc.

yes, but i said top line (or at least very good) power. I think David Haye probably had very good power. I wouldnt put him in the category of fighters you mentioned. Vitali (i am sure i will get some abuse on this one) has very good clubbing power, but again i wouldnt put in the same bracket as the guys you mentioned. Greb I would have thought was less than this.

If we listed all the fighters pound for pound in order of punching ability, Tyson, McGovern etc would be up near the 10. Ali and Co probably around the 7 about on par with say a Monzon or a Ray leonard.

I would have thought that on this scale Rosenbloom and Greb would have been below 5. is this a fair rating, or do you think it would change and greb might be higher? By very good power, i was probably thinking of guys with less than 5 in the purely power category. I am open to being convinced by Greb's fans of many things, but this would seem to be the position as it stands.

Unless youre putting Ali in that category, I dont see what your beef with Saad is.

No real beef at all, just throwing a few different items up for discussion as i patiently bide my time to see if Klompton or any others can raise a good argument as to why Greb should rank over Fitzy.

Id say Ali would struggle to be on par with even someone like Holyfield...no way he hits like a Bowe, Frazier or Walcott, and those three guys arent in any way in the elite category themselves (all three were hard punchers but dont belong with the gents I mentioned).

i think that Ali definitely hits harder than Holyfield. I think i would lean slightly towards Ali in a punching competition with Walcott, although i admit it is close. Even Frazier, i think is definitely a lot closer than people think although i would probably give it to Frazier. I think i agree that Bowe probably hits a bit harder.

No WAY does Ali hit harder than Walcott! None! And you would say Frazier, "probably," hits harder than Ali? And what is this about Vitali having anything resembling good power? Did you watch him belt a 3,000-year-old Shannon Briggs (seriously, an ancient Briggs!) all around the ring without so much as a knockdown? It was pitiful. Vitali got all the punch resistance in his gene pool, but Wlad got every last drop of power (which he now neglects totally).

Well by my (very rough count) Ali won about 25 out of 30 via the short distance, until the enforced layoff. That is pretty good demonstration of power. And his stoppage victims included Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Bonavena, Patterson, Foley, Quarry, Wepner, Lyle, Ellis, Moore, Williams and cooper, among others. That is a pretty good list of stoppage wins. Hard to do that without power. Some very good chins, were broken and/or learned to greatly respect Ali's power.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Have you watched these bouts?

Im not being facetious, BTW, Im really asking, because a lot of the stats youre reading and victims being mentioned werent the result of Ali's power --- not at all.

[The Great John L]

I don't see any scenario where Fitz lands in the all time top 5. None that I would take seriously. Though this lists are just for fun anyway. He might not make my top 50 if I actually did it. I'd never rate him over a Hagler or Monzon just to name 2.

Yeah, I'm sure you're right. Why would anyone rate the first 3 division champion, a MW who KOd many of the top HWs of his era, as an ATG P4P fighter? That does seem really daft.

[Boilermaker]

Have you watched these bouts?

Im not being facetious, BTW, Im really asking, because a lot of the stats youre reading and victims being mentioned werent the result of Ali's power --- not at all.

Yes i have watched a little bit of Ali's fights

You dont stop Frazier without power. Same with Foreman. Is it telling that Holyfield landed at will on ancient Foreman and couldnt stop him, yet ali dropped and stopped a much younger version of Foreman? (oh oh not the exhaustion argument again ) Same goes with Liston.

Bonavena from memory was one when Alis timing was out of sorts but he still managed to stop him in the last round. And Bonavena had a great chin.

I will admit that Ali's speed had a lot to do with his power, but so what. It also had a lot to do with the power of Tyson and Dempsey. In Ali and Frazier, Ali actually backed Foreman up early on with his lead rights. That is no easy feat, and it certainly earned more respect than Fraziers left hook did against Forman.


I just rewatched Ali and Frazier against Foreman. Frazier landed a couple of big left hooks and it got zero respect from Foreman (second fight). Ali on the other hand in round one landed some big right hands on Foreman and backed him up in the first round. And in the second he even got his attention with some straight lefts. How do you do that if you dont have good power? Just another quick glance at Liston Ali I. And Ali backs up liston with the first blow landed in round one. And really hurts him, even wobbles him in round 3 as soon as he lands clean. Which fight do you suggest i rewatch?

[Boilermaker]

Just to illustrate how highly Fitzsimmons was regarded, here is an excellent article written by Jack Johnson. Note that he doesnt just rate fitz as a middleweight, but as a heavyweight. And he is absolutely convinced that Fitzsimmons KOs Dempsey within 4 rounds. Note also that there is no mention in the article of Harry Greb doing the same. If Greb was as good as fitz in Johnson's mind he surely would have ranked a mention? Johnson admittedly has a very poor opinion of Dempsey, but it is a very insightful argument anyway.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=kG ... down&hl=en

Saad, hopefully you will start to read a few of these reports, they will eventually change your opinions.

[Boilermaker]

I cant really get a direct quote on jack johnson's opinion as to whether Fitzsimmons would beat harry Greb, but here is Jacks opinion on common opponents.

Interesting that he thinks Joe Walcott (who he rates the greatest pound for pound fighter ever) would beat Harry Greb but that Bob Fitzsimmons would beat Joe Walcott. Verry interesting wouldnt you think?

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=l2 ... cate&hl=en

[raylawpc]

I don't see any scenario where Fitz lands in the all time top 5. None that I would take seriously. Though this lists are just for fun anyway. He might not make my top 50 if I actually did it. I'd never rate him over a Hagler or Monzon just to name 2.

Yeah, I'm sure you're right. Why would anyone rate the first 3 division champion, a MW who KOd many of the top HWs of his era, as an ATG P4P fighter? That does seem really daft.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Have you watched these bouts?

Im not being facetious, BTW, Im really asking, because a lot of the stats youre reading and victims being mentioned werent the result of Ali's power --- not at all.

Yes i have watched a little bit of Ali's fights

You dont stop Frazier without power. Same with Foreman. Is it telling that Holyfield landed at will on ancient Foreman and couldnt stop him, yet ali dropped and stopped a much younger version of Foreman? (oh oh not the exhaustion argument again ) Same goes with Liston.

Bonavena from memory was one when Alis timing was out of sorts but he still managed to stop him in the last round. And Bonavena had a great chin.

I will admit that Ali's speed had a lot to do with his power, but so what. It also had a lot to do with the power of Tyson and Dempsey. In Ali and Frazier, Ali actually backed Foreman up early on with his lead rights. That is no easy feat, and it certainly earned more respect than Fraziers left hook did against Forman.


I just rewatched Ali and Frazier against Foreman. Frazier landed a couple of big left hooks and it got zero respect from Foreman (second fight). Ali on the other hand in round one landed some big right hands on Foreman and backed him up in the first round. And in the second he even got his attention with some straight lefts. How do you do that if you dont have good power? Just another quick glance at Liston Ali I. And Ali backs up liston with the first blow landed in round one. And really hurts him, even wobbles him in round 3 as soon as he lands clean. Which fight do you suggest i rewatch?

I just have to disagree very strongly. Bonavena & Foreman were each run ragged in their fights with Ali. Once their tanks were on empty, Ali KO'd them (in Bonavena's case, illegally, I might add). He never put any kind of serious hurt on either of them --- or Liston, for that matter --- in terms of concussive force. Frazier endured thousands of blows from Ali...he was staggered, what, twice in three fights? Only ever once when fresh. Ali stopped him in insane heat when Frazier could no longer see properly, due to extreme swelling. It had not one thing in the world to do with power. Liston backs away when Ali throws, yes --- but it's completely the normal reaction to being thrown at. Not once, ever, does Ali hurt the guy.

How would you explain glass-jawed Patterson, in his last ever fight, lasting seven rounds with Ali without tasting the canvas? In addition to the twelve he went with a prime Ali. How does Norton, vulnerable to serious punchers, absolutely, undisputably walk through Ali's best shots?

Ali wasn't feather-fisted...but he is miles & miles & miles short of having the hitting power you're suggesting.

[raylawpc]

How would you explain glass-jawed Patterson, in his last ever fight, lasting seven rounds with Ali without tasting the canvas?

It's off-topic (but then again so is this whole discussion), but, I can't label (then again I don't like labeling period) Patterson as a "glass-jawed" fighter. I think he went down so much was due to not being "warmed up" and wasting nervous energy early on. In fact, he never went down once after the 4th (up to my knowledge). While he didn't have an iron-chin, I would definitely say he didn't have a glass-jaw.

Hmmm . . . one would have thought, being an Olympian, two-time undisputed world champion, and having Cus D'Amato as a trainer, that Floyd would have learned early on the importance of warming up properly . . .

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I certainly agree that power isnt a pre-requisite to greatness. I could name guys to the contrary all day.

As for just the top-20 men of all-time though, Im not sure off-hand.

I wouldn't argue with anyone who had Ali, Canzoneri, Gavilan, Pep, Griffith, Loughran, Rosenbloom, Whitaker, Ross, McClarnin or Villa in their top 20's. Many of them are in mine.

I hate to even say it, but I think rating Pep as highly as I always have goes a bit against my strictness on resume being the deciding factor at the absolute highest level. If you look at the guys he beat compared to the guys Griffith beat and lost closely too it's a slippery slope.

Those are all great fighters, but I do think many people lose sight at just how great a top 20 p 4 p fighter must be. I cant see any way that Rosenbloom and Griffith for example could possibly rank this highly. Just think about the likes of Armstrong, Greb, langford, Louis, hagler, Benny Leonard, Duran, Fitzsimmons, Wilde, Tunney, Moore, Charles, Robinson. And that isnt allowing for guys who had short but spectacular reigns like McGovern, Ketchell, Darcy or guys who were dominant but are totally underated today like Zale, Steele, Cerdan, Attell, Jimmy Barry, Both Joe Walcotts, or Jack Dempseys for that Matter, Jack Johnson, peter Jackson and Jim Corbett, Sullivan, Sandy Saddler, The list really is just endless and you have to do something really spectacular and out of the ordinary just to make the top 20. Some who miss out on the top 20 will have been easily the best fighters of their time in their own weight division.

Griffith is well inside of my top 20, I can't see any way that a Fitzsimmons rates over him.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I don't see any scenario where Fitz lands in the all time top 5. None that I would take seriously. Though this lists are just for fun anyway. He might not make my top 50 if I actually did it. I'd never rate him over a Hagler or Monzon just to name 2.

Yeah, I'm sure you're right.

I know, but thanks for acknowledging it.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Saad, hopefully you will start to read a few of these reports, they will eventually change your opinions.

I've read plenty, nothing would ever put Fitrzsimmons over Greb. He doesn't have the opposition and he doesn't have the quality wins. They aren't even in the same stratosphere. I've grown tired of reading your silly posts, I certainly have no interest in any link from you. But keep on trolling holmes, you're quite good at it.

[The Great John L]

Saad, hopefully you will start to read a few of these reports, they will eventually change your opinions.

I've read plenty, nothing would ever put Fitrzsimmons over Greb. He doesn't have the opposition and he doesn't have the quality wins. They aren't even in the same stratosphere. I've grown tired of reading your silly posts, I certainly have no interest in any link from you. But keep on trolling holmes, you're quite good at it.

Your link has been fixed.

[raylawpc]

It's off-topic (but then again so is this whole discussion), but, I can't label (then again I don't like labeling period) Patterson as a "glass-jawed" fighter. I think he went down so much was due to not being "warmed up" and wasting nervous energy early on. In fact, he never went down once after the 4th (up to my knowledge). While he didn't have an iron-chin, I would definitely say he didn't have a glass-jaw.

Hmmm . . . one would have thought, being an Olympian, two-time undisputed world champion, and having Cus D'Amato as a trainer, that Floyd would have learned early on the importance of warming up properly . . .

I meant "warming up" in the sense of getting into his zone. You can "warm up" before a bout, but, it doesn't mean you're ready to flow in your game.

"Warming up" is a term of art in boxing. You do it in your dressing room before the fight. If you don't, you go into the ring "cold" (another term of art), and bad things can happen.

[raylawpc]

"Warming up" is a term of art in boxing. You do it in your dressing room before the fight. If you don't, you go into the ring "cold" (another term of art), and bad things can happen.

you're using labels when i'm using my own diction. can't understand that then we gon' move on.

It avoids confusion when you use the correct terminology.

[Boilermaker]

back to the Herbert slade victory of Fitzys, Herbert Slade is often written off as a Jem Mace Hype job. And probably rightly so. But he was still a decent fighter, who was capable of at least competing at close to world class level. Here is an interesting account of an alleged street fight he had with John L Sullivan. I dont really believe in it, but for those of you who require first hand reports to prove something existed, does this street fight report give proof that Slade at least holds a victory of Sullivan outside the ring?

http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cdnc/cgi-bin/cdnc?a ... gilist----#

[raylawpc]

back to the Herbert slade victory of Fitzys, Herbert Slade is often written off as a Jem Mace Hype job. And probably rightly so. But he was still a decent fighter, who was capable of at least competing at close to world class level. Here is an interesting account of an alleged street fight he had with John L Sullivan. I dont really believe in it, but for those of you who require first hand reports to prove something existed, does this street fight report give proof that Slade at least holds a victory of Sullivan outside the ring?

http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cdnc/cgi-bin/cdnc?a ... gilist----#

If you "don't really believe in it," why should we?

[Boilermaker]

back to the Herbert slade victory of Fitzys, Herbert Slade is often written off as a Jem Mace Hype job. And probably rightly so. But he was still a decent fighter, who was capable of at least competing at close to world class level. Here is an interesting account of an alleged street fight he had with John L Sullivan. I dont really believe in it, but for those of you who require first hand reports to prove something existed, does this street fight report give proof that Slade at least holds a victory of Sullivan outside the ring?

http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cdnc/cgi-bin/cdnc?a ... gilist----#

If you "don't really believe in it," why should we?

I am not the be all and end all, just because i dont believe it happened doesnt mean it didnt happen or that you have to believe it didnt happen.

I had not heard of this fracas at all. I did hear of Herbert Slade getting knocked out by a thrown brick once, where John L Sullivan came down and knocked out a few of the assailants. If others have more information on this particular happening, then i might change my mind. If others, such as yourself, place great weight on the existence of Newspaper reports confirming fights then one would suspect that they would possibly believe this one. Either way, i thought it might be of interest for some people.

Do you not like reading this sort of article?

[scallum]

Im a big Greb fan I think he is the most overlooked boxer in the history of the sport especially for him going 48-0 in one single year vs good opposition. I will admit to not knowing as much on Fitzsimmons but I will now research.