Liston's age when he fought Ali??

[Goodnight, Irene]

"...Oh please. The only reason that you care is so that it would look like he was too old when he fought Ali..." - Alp

That is completely untrue, & a total aside to the issue. In point of fact, this is just the type of, "Ali-Defense Paranaoia" some on this forum have expressed concerns over in the past --- that whole conversations can steer south because Ali is incorrectly perceived to be under attack. Simply, you view this topic as unworthy of interest in its own right --- nobody could possibly be curious about Liston, it has to be an attack on the only interesting man feasibly in the conversation. I'm sure if he had his time again, the thread originator would re-phrase to simply ask Liston's real age, independent of this most-discussed point of his career.

"...To believe that he was 5 years older would have to believe a lot of extremely unlikely things, including:

-The census was wrong.
-His own mother was about 5 years off on his age.
-He would not have turned pro until he was about 26. (His first pro fight was in 1953.)
-The heavyweight champion of the world was passing himself off as 5 years younger than he was and nobody from his past says anything to the media.
Nobody that went to school with him and knows his approximate age says anything. Nobody from his neighborhood that he grew up says anything."

Such points would be difficult to believe with a fighter now --- not then. Hell, my father has trouble remembering the birthdays of his four children...the Liston's had over twenty kids! If you really buy Liston's age birthdate was as reported, you are in a very small minority indeed --- even amongst your brethren.

Oh my mistake. You were just curious when Sonny Liston was born, nothing more. Sure.
Such points would be difficult to believe? Huh?
Would your dad know if someone said you were 5 years younger than you really are? I would almost any parent would know. His mother would certainly know which brothers and sisters he was younger and older than and would within a year, even assuming she doesn't have it written down.
You really think Liston was fighting as an amatuer up until he was 25 or 26? That would make little sense.
You really think no one else would that really knows his apporximate age would not have said anything? Come on.

I would hope that most people believe he was as old as the record books, boxrec, the census, his mother all say. Of course a lot people prefer to bleieve a good story even if flies in the face of the evidence.
I think the people that feel the need to start anti-Ali post every week probably don't believe that Liston was born in 1932. (This is not to say that the originator of this post is anti-Ali or not.)

You think that myself and my "brethen" are obessed with Ali? Go look how many posts I have started about Ali. There was one in four years. how about you? How many Ali posts have you started?

When was the last time anyone has started a pro-Ali thread? You may have to go back years. In that time there probably has been over a 100 anti-Ali threads.

Yes, Alp, we are interested in Liston --- this is the only champ in division history to be indeterminate in age, & it has FVCK-ALL to do with Ali.

As I say, the paranoia here sometimes reaches positively dizzying heights.

[Ambling Alp]

Classy post.
The title of the post is "Liston's age when he fought Ali?"
Yet it has absolutely nothing to with Ali.

I agree that there is a lot of paranoia in this forum about Ali. There are people who question multiple decisions that he won, or stoppages that he won by, or the count by the referee. Some people even start posts about how many "robberies" were in his favor.

As for Liston's age, you claim he is the only heavyweight champ with an indetermiable age. If you are going to play the game where you ignore all of the evidence that Liston was born in 1932, then you can't legitimateely say there is no other champion we don't know the age of. How do you really know how old Johnson, Tunney, Dempsey or just about anyone was?

[Goodnight, Irene]

Classy post.
The title of the post is "Liston's age when he fought Ali?"
Yet it has absolutely nothing to with Ali.

I agree that there is a lot of paranoia in this forum about Ali. There are people who question multiple decisions that he won, or stoppages that he won by, or the count by the referee. Some people even start posts about how many "robberies" were in his favor.

As for Liston's age, you claim he is the only heavyweight champ with an indetermiable age. If you are going to play the game where you ignore all of the evidence that Liston was born in 1932, then you can't legitimateely say there is no other champion we don't know the age of. How do you really know how old Johnson, Tunney, Dempsey or just about anyone was?

...& as I already said, Ali's name in the title is incidental to the issue being discussed. Why is his name there? Because this is the most talked-about period in Liston's career...period. It has nothing to do with tearing down Ali.

Show me the posts here which have committed that crime? Highlight them for us all, instead of just firing into the darkness, hoping to hit Granberry or one of his idiot co-horts.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Classy post.
The title of the post is "Liston's age when he fought Ali?"
Yet it has absolutely nothing to with Ali.

I agree that there is a lot of paranoia in this forum about Ali. There are people who question multiple decisions that he won, or stoppages that he won by, or the count by the referee. Some people even start posts about how many "robberies" were in his favor.

As for Liston's age, you claim he is the only heavyweight champ with an indetermiable age. If you are going to play the game where you ignore all of the evidence that Liston was born in 1932, then you can't legitimateely say there is no other champion we don't know the age of. How do you really know how old Johnson, Tunney, Dempsey or just about anyone was?

Show some intelligence in your postings. As a boxing fan there is nothing wrong to want to further explore the truth behind certain fights. It just so happens that Muhammad Ali was an Icon in the sport and I don't think anyone but Granberry & Co. would disagree. The fact remains that to the public he is pushed off as this great legend when there are many flaws in his professional fighting career & personal life that people who are open-minded like to inspect thoroughly instead of being forced-fed certain things about people within the sport. If only your admiration for the man could be pushed aside so you could see that the original poster [Jesus - who is an Ali fan] was simply curious of Liston's true age & the reason behind it is due to someone/some people saying that Liston was older than listed when he fought Clay/Ali.

This is saying the same thing I did, but better. Not that you should expect much in return. The alarm bells are well & truly ringing now --- this is a designated, "Destroy Ali" thread, apparently --- because we all know no one could possibly have any interest in Liston. After all, Ali declared him dull, so that puts paid to that.

[Darling]

[Brutu]

Im going by memory since my subscription to ancestry.com expired a few years ago.
As far as the 1930 US cenus there.
I seem to recall it listing the youngest of the children of Tobin and Helen Liston there as Curtis Liston at about 6 months old.
Since a Charles Liston wasnt listed among the many Liston children,I just deduced he was born after Curtis Liston.
I was going to post it then,but I thought it may take some of the mystery out of the Liston myth.
(although there was another Charles Liston listed in the census in the area of St.Francis Arkansas,but he was listed as 40 years old in 1930).

[wouter]

Im going by memory since my subscription to ancestry.com expired a few years ago.
As far as the 1930 US cenus there.
I seem to recall it listing the youngest of the children of Tobin and Helen Liston there as Curtis Liston at about 6 months old.
Since a Charles Liston wasnt listed among the many Liston children,I just deduced he was born after Curtis Liston.
I was going to post it then,but I thought it may take some of the mystery out of the Liston myth.
(although there was another Charles Liston listed in the census in the area of St.Francis Arkansas,but he was listed as 40 years old in 1930).

You are absolutely correct, Liston was not born yet in 1930. The Liston household consisted back then of parents Tobin, & Helen, sisters Clytee, Annie & Alcora, brothers J.T. Leo & Curtis. Curtis being 6 months old.

[Ambling Alp]

Classy post.
The title of the post is "Liston's age when he fought Ali?"
Yet it has absolutely nothing to with Ali.

I agree that there is a lot of paranoia in this forum about Ali. There are people who question multiple decisions that he won, or stoppages that he won by, or the count by the referee. Some people even start posts about how many "robberies" were in his favor.

As for Liston's age, you claim he is the only heavyweight champ with an indetermiable age. If you are going to play the game where you ignore all of the evidence that Liston was born in 1932, then you can't legitimateely say there is no other champion we don't know the age of. How do you really know how old Johnson, Tunney, Dempsey or just about anyone was?

Show some intelligence in your postings. As a boxing fan there is nothing wrong to want to further explore the truth behind certain fights. It just so happens that Muhammad Ali was an Icon in the sport and I don't think anyone but Granberry & Co. would disagree. The fact remains that to the public he is pushed off as this great legend when there are many flaws in his professional fighting career & personal life that people who are open-minded like to inspect thoroughly instead of being forced-fed certain things about people within the sport. If only your admiration for the man could be pushed aside so you could see that the original poster [Jesus - who is an Ali fan] was simply curious of Liston's true age & the reason behind it is due to someone/some people saying that Liston was older than listed when he fought Clay/Ali.

This is saying the same thing I did, but better. Not that you should expect much in return. The alarm bells are well & truly ringing now --- this is a designated, "Destroy Ali" thread, apparently --- because we all know no one could possibly have any interest in Liston. After all, Ali declared him dull, so that puts paid to that.

As for Liston's age, I have said why I think he was born in 1932. Their were either weak rebuttals or none at all to these reasons. Of course anyone is free to choose to believe what they want to believe.
You don't really know how any heavyweight champion was. You could say any of them was older than they are listed at.
I think you should have some pretty strong evidence if you are going to say the official records are wrong. So far, the evidence overwhelmingly shows that he was 31.

As for this having nothing to do with Ali, fine. Given the obessession with Ali on this forum, I'm sure it never crossed anyone's mind this would mean it's not as big of a win for Ali if Liston was really much older. You are just curious about Liston's age for the sake of wanting to know his age. Whatever.

Barry-As for Ali, of course he had flaws. If you want to criticize his performances against Lyle or the 1st Norton fight, fair enough. If someone wants to say they thought Norton should got the decison in the 3rd fight or Young should have got it, fine. However calling it a robbery is not fine. If you can give every close round to the guy who got the decision and that still enough for him to win, it's not a robbery. A decision that doesn't go your guys way isn't automatically a "robbery".
It should also be mentioned that Ali was well past his best when he fought Norton the 3rd time and Young. It seldom is.

On this Forum, there are people that grasp every staw when it comes to Ali. When he wins by TKO, the fight is stopped prematurely. The majority of the decsions that he won his career have been questioned on this forum. This goes on week after week, month after month.

How often do we see thread about the breaks that Holmes or Louis got? (Sometimes they the benefit of the doubt, sometimes rip offs.)
Ray Robinson won several decisions that could have gone the other way. How often do we see threads started about them?
Some people don't even think we should bring legitimate losses about great fighters? Most recently, Henry Armstrong.
However, with Ali, anything goes. Week after week.

Of course the mainstream media gives Ali 10x the attention as anyone else. That does mean we should treat him better or worse than anyone else.

There fighters thast I don't like. I detest Monzon, Duran, LaMotta, Tyson. However, I don't feel the need to start threads ripping them. They were all great fighters and should get credit for their pluses and ripped for negatives just like anyone else.

The bottom line-Ali fans are a lot more sick of Ali threads than the "haters" or whatever you want to call them. The prroof is in the pudding. Look back to find a thread started that was pro-Ali. You may have to back years. How many anti-ali threads have there been in the last yea or two?

I have said my piece. I will let you guys have the last word on this thread.

[raylawpc]

Show some intelligence in your postings. As a boxing fan there is nothing wrong to want to further explore the truth behind certain fights. It just so happens that Muhammad Ali was an Icon in the sport and I don't think anyone but Granberry & Co. would disagree. The fact remains that to the public he is pushed off as this great legend when there are many flaws in his professional fighting career & personal life that people who are open-minded like to inspect thoroughly instead of being forced-fed certain things about people within the sport. If only your admiration for the man could be pushed aside so you could see that the original poster [Jesus - who is an Ali fan] was simply curious of Liston's true age & the reason behind it is due to someone/some people saying that Liston was older than listed when he fought Clay/Ali.

This is saying the same thing I did, but better. Not that you should expect much in return. The alarm bells are well & truly ringing now --- this is a designated, "Destroy Ali" thread, apparently --- because we all know no one could possibly have any interest in Liston. After all, Ali declared him dull, so that puts paid to that.

As for Liston's age, I have said why I think he was born in 1932. Their were either weak rebuttals or none at all to these reasons. Of course anyone is free to choose to believe what they want to believe.
You don't really know how any heavyweight champion was. You could say any of them was older than they are listed at.
I think you should have some pretty strong evidence if you are going to say the official records are wrong. So far, the evidence overwhelmingly shows that he was 31.

As for this having nothing to do with Ali, fine. Given the obessession with Ali on this forum, I'm sure it never crossed anyone's mind this would mean it's not as big of a win for Ali if Liston was really much older. You are just curious about Liston's age for the sake of wanting to know his age. Whatever.

Barry-As for Ali, of course he had flaws. If you want to criticize his performances against Lyle or the 1st Norton fight, fair enough. If someone wants to say they thought Norton should got the decison in the 3rd fight or Young should have got it, fine. However calling it a robbery is not fine. If you can give every close round to the guy who got the decision and that still enough for him to win, it's not a robbery. A decision that doesn't go your guys way isn't automatically a "robbery".
It should also be mentioned that Ali was well past his best when he fought Norton the 3rd time and Young. It seldom is.

On this Forum, there are people that grasp every staw when it comes to Ali. When he wins by TKO, the fight is stopped prematurely. The majority of the decsions that he won his career have been questioned on this forum. This goes on week after week, month after month.

How often do we see thread about the breaks that Holmes or Louis got? (Sometimes they the benefit of the doubt, sometimes rip offs.)
Ray Robinson won several decisions that could have gone the other way. How often do we see threads started about them?
Some people don't even think we should bring legitimate losses about great fighters? Most recently, Henry Armstrong.
However, with Ali, anything goes. Week after week.

Of course the mainstream media gives Ali 10x the attention as anyone else. That does mean we should treat him better or worse than anyone else.

There fighters thast I don't like. I detest Monzon, Duran, LaMotta, Tyson. However, I don't feel the need to start threads ripping them. They were all great fighters and should get credit for their pluses and ripped for negatives just like anyone else.

The bottom line-Ali fans are a lot more sick of Ali threads than the "haters" or whatever you want to call them. The prroof is in the pudding. Look back to find a thread started that was pro-Ali. You may have to back years. How many anti-ali threads have there been in the last yea or two?

I have said my piece. I will let you guys have the last word on this thread.

Personally, I think Liston was born sometime after 1930 because of the U.S. Census entry. But I don't necessarily buy the other three reasons you listed earlier in this thread.

= Sonny's momma had over 20 kids; she could be confused as to birthdates.

= By way of analogy, jailbird Ron Lyle was 28-years-old when he got out of prison and 30 when he turned pro; is it really inconceivable that jailbird Liston was 26 when he turned pro?

= And, Liston had few schoolmates (did he ever even go to school?) and his friends in the neighborhoood were thugs and hoodlums, who could probably care less if he shaved off a few years from his age.

But, again, I think he was born after 1930 - but not for all the reasons you give.

[Brutu]

shhhessh I thought this subject was hashed out a couple years ago.
Next it will be someone will bring up how much time Cassisus Clay actually had between rounds to rest(approx. 4 minutes)when henry Cooper knocked him down in their first fight.

[Giancarlo]

Reportly his family carved it on a tree when he was born,but the tree had been cut down years before.

f*cking pure gold!

Only in BOP, man.

[Giancarlo]

Show me the posts here which have committed that crime? Highlight them for us all, instead of just firing into the darkness, hoping to hit Granberry or one of his idiot co-horts.

That's no way to talk about funny old Yancey and his raging man love!