Eubanks says Jones Jr wouldn't fight him?

[Quixall]

Couldn't agree more James !!

Your points are more or less the same that i am trying to get across to Kingfinn. As you say, Hopkins was very close to his prime years, as was Jones, but neither were at their peak and so were seen as a pretty equal match up at that stage and Jones won with one hand. I also agree with your point that Glenn Johnson wouldn't have lived with Roy Jones in his prime, the same Johnson who lost to Clinton Woods, i fighter who Roy literally played with like a cat to a mouse all night.

I also agree with your poinst about Hopkins after the Trinidad fight and i also think it's more a reflection on the 175lbs division, than Hopkins super human abilities as a 40 something fighter, the same point was also raised by Teddy Atlas. Lastly, i also view Jones the same as you with regards to how he literally fell off a cliff in fighting terms after winning the heavyweight crown, losing 25lbs to go back to LH. Jones was effectively done after the Tarver II fight.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Its notable that Jermaine Taylor, himself a fair way short of greatness, but undoubtedly a very good fighter, was able to get by Hopkins. Taylor had real talent and technical ability, his main failing as a fighter was his poor stamina, something an ageing hopkins wasn't quite able to exploit. The fights were close, but the fact is Taylor had enough to keep Hopkins honest. Taylor was a good deal more talented than any of the other men that Hopkins would go on to beat.

Hopkins was a great fighter, but physically, he isn't the man who beat Trinidad, its just that the guys he is facing are not savvy enough to make him work, Calzaghe JUST got away with it, in a very very poor fight, Ill admit Calzaghe was himself starting to slide, but he was nowhere near as far gone and barely escaped with a win, personally i scored it a draw, but a close win either way was not a bad decision.

[Jon Saxon]

But will Kinfin actually accept that the world is not flat?

[Finn]

But will Kinfin actually accept that the world is not flat?

Can you accept that there is a difference between proof and opinion? I think the analogy you have used is more suited to yourself.

[Finn]

Kingfinn,

I do think you care about my opinions because otherwise you wouldn't have answered my post. I wasn't particularly trying to discredit Calzaghe, just put his skills and career in a more objective light. You say i didn't mention that Hopkins wasn't in his prime when Jones beat him the first time, but neither was Jones, but you certainly haven't made a reposte against the James Toney fight that i mentioned in relation to Roy Jones.

I would agree with you that Calzaghe has had the best career at SM because he fought at the weight a long time and remained undefeated, though i don't think his resume stacks up a great deal. His beat win was against Kessler. Hopkins and Jones were way past their primes when Calzaghe fought them, effectively "old men" in boxing terms and in Jones' case he was a shell of the boxer that he used to be at that point in his career.

I would have some empathy with what your saying about Calzaghe having possibly the best career at SM, but i disagree when you say that Calzaghe could have beaten anyone at 168lbs in his prime, particularly when you say he could have beaten Roy Jones. IMO both Jones and Toney would have beaten Calzaghe and a few others too, so i know where you are coming from, but, ultimately there has to be a distinction made between who had the best career at SM and who was the best p4p fighter at SM, regardless of how many times he fought at that weight.

In doing this, we can seperate IMO, the major difference between a fighter who has over a number of years been very successfull at a particular weight, in this case SM and Calzaghe, as apposed to a number of fighters who have fought at some point in their respective careers, but had a limited number of fights at SM, notably Jones and Toney. The former you could argue for Calzaghe, but the latter would go to Jones, because whilst his career at SM was short and his fights quite few, if Calzaghe and Jones had met at 168lbs in their primes, then IMO Jones wins at a canter.

Good post but is still disagree with you on points. Calzaghe would have beaten Hopkins at any age the fight was only close because hopkins spoiled and cheated all night, toney i dont think he was as great as the hype id put him on the same level as eubank and i think clazaghe would have beaten them both. RJJ i would never rule out the possiblity of him beating Calzaghe but i dont think he would have. LHW yes SMW no.

[Quixall]

Well, i think most people will not put Toney on the same level as Eubank. I think Calzaghe would have got mullered by Jones in his prime and well beaten by Hopkins also.

[Finn]

Well, i think most people will not put Toney on the same level as Eubank. I think Calzaghe would have got mullered by Jones in his prime and well beaten by Hopkins also.

Most people thinking something doesnt make it right. As i said before most people thought lacy and mcclellan would win.

[Quixall]

Well, i think most people will not put Toney on the same level as Eubank. I think Calzaghe would have got mullered by Jones in his prime and well beaten by Hopkins also.

Most people thinking something doesnt make it right. As i said before most people thought lacy and mcclellan would win.

Like i said Kingfinn, there is such a thing as a concensus of opinion and also an informed opinion.................

What i would strongly advice you to do is put up a thread and ask these questions !!!

1. Would Calzaghe have beaten Hopkins at anytime in their careers

2. Would Calzaghe have beaten Jones in his prime at either 168lbs or 175lbs

3. Is Toney on the same level as Chris Eubank as a fighter

Then see what you get back !!

Remembering that whilst there are some idiots on this forum, there are also many knowledgeable posters, some directly involved with the sport as managers, trainers, boxers etc etc....!!

As i say, put up that thread amongst people who are no fools when it comes to knowing their sport and you will soon get your answers !!!!

That is all i have to say.

[loaded_gloves]

Well, i think most people will not put Toney on the same level as Eubank. I think Calzaghe would have got mullered by Jones in his prime and well beaten by Hopkins also.

Most people thinking something doesnt make it right. As i said before most people thought lacy and mcclellan would win.

Such a terribly flawed logic to use.

At one time most people thought the world was flat.

[Quixall]

Well, i think most people will not put Toney on the same level as Eubank. I think Calzaghe would have got mullered by Jones in his prime and well beaten by Hopkins also.

Most people thinking something doesnt make it right. As i said before most people thought lacy and mcclellan would win.

Such a terribly flawed logic to use.

At one time most people thought the world was flat.

Huge difference.

When people assumed the world could be flat, they didn't have the science to prove otherwise. In terms of this debate, we all have seen Eubank, Toney, Jones and Hopkins fight, so i think that a consensus of opinion has been formed that the majority of people would say that Jones and Hopkins beat Calzaghe in thei primes and Toney is better than Eubank.

It's not about logic or amything else, it's about the fornicating obvious

[Finn]

Most people thinking something doesnt make it right. As i said before most people thought lacy and mcclellan would win.

Such a terribly flawed logic to use.

At one time most people thought the world was flat.

Huge difference.

When people assumed the world could be flat, they didn't have the science to prove otherwise. In terms of this debate, we all have seen Eubank, Toney, Jones and Hopkins fight, so i think that a consensus of opinion has been formed that the majority of people would say that Jones and Hopkins beat Calzaghe in thei primes and Toney is better than Eubank.

It's not about logic or amything else, it's about the effing obvious

If that were true we would be able to predict every fight? The whole point of boxing is people thinking someone will win and being proved either right or wrong.

[Finn]

Well, i think most people will not put Toney on the same level as Eubank. I think Calzaghe would have got mullered by Jones in his prime and well beaten by Hopkins also.

Most people thinking something doesnt make it right. As i said before most people thought lacy and mcclellan would win.

Such a terribly flawed logic to use.

At one time most people thought the world was flat.

It is certainly a flawed logic is saying "most people think" so that automatically makes it right.

[Finn]

Well, i think most people will not put Toney on the same level as Eubank. I think Calzaghe would have got mullered by Jones in his prime and well beaten by Hopkins also.

Most people thinking something doesnt make it right. As i said before most people thought lacy and mcclellan would win.

Like i said Kingfinn, there is such a thing as a concensus of opinion and also an informed opinion.................

What i would strongly advice you to do is put up a thread and ask these questions !!!

1. Would Calzaghe have beaten Hopkins at anytime in their careers

2. Would Calzaghe have beaten Jones in his prime at either 168lbs or 175lbs

3. Is Toney on the same level as Chris Eubank as a fighter

Then see what you get back !!

Remembering that whilst there are some idiots on this forum, there are also many knowledgeable posters, some directly involved with the sport as managers, trainers, boxers etc etc....!!

As i say, put up that thread amongst people who are no fools when it comes to knowing their sport and you will soon get your answers !!!!

That is all i have to say.

What is going on in youre head? Do you even watch boxing? We are not talking about Man U v Boston Utd We are talking about cream of the crop fighters against each other. Do you honestly think i would take other peoples opinions over my own. I think im right and i think you are wrong thats about as far as things will develop in this conversation.

[Jon Saxon]

Most people thinking something doesnt make it right. As i said before most people thought lacy and mcclellan would win.

Like i said Kingfinn, there is such a thing as a concensus of opinion and also an informed opinion.................

What i would strongly advice you to do is put up a thread and ask these questions !!!

1. Would Calzaghe have beaten Hopkins at anytime in their careers

2. Would Calzaghe have beaten Jones in his prime at either 168lbs or 175lbs

3. Is Toney on the same level as Chris Eubank as a fighter

Then see what you get back !!

Remembering that whilst there are some idiots on this forum, there are also many knowledgeable posters, some directly involved with the sport as managers, trainers, boxers etc etc....!!

As i say, put up that thread amongst people who are no fools when it comes to knowing their sport and you will soon get your answers !!!!

That is all i have to say.

What is going on in youre head? Do you even watch boxing? We are not talking about Man U v Boston Utd We are talking about cream of the crop fighters against each other. Do you honestly think i would take other peoples opinions over my own. I think im right and i think you are wrong thats about as far as things will develop in this conversation.

Eubank beat James Toney?? eh wtf??


c'mon man this is a wind up?

[Quixall]

Most people thinking something doesnt make it right. As i said before most people thought lacy and mcclellan would win.

Like i said Kingfinn, there is such a thing as a concensus of opinion and also an informed opinion.................

What i would strongly advice you to do is put up a thread and ask these questions !!!

1. Would Calzaghe have beaten Hopkins at anytime in their careers

2. Would Calzaghe have beaten Jones in his prime at either 168lbs or 175lbs

3. Is Toney on the same level as Chris Eubank as a fighter

Then see what you get back !!

Remembering that whilst there are some idiots on this forum, there are also many knowledgeable posters, some directly involved with the sport as managers, trainers, boxers etc etc....!!

As i say, put up that thread amongst people who are no fools when it comes to knowing their sport and you will soon get your answers !!!!

That is all i have to say.

What is going on in youre head? Do you even watch boxing? We are not talking about Man U v Boston Utd We are talking about cream of the crop fighters against each other. Do you honestly think i would take other peoples opinions over my own. I think im right and i think you are wrong thats about as far as things will develop in this conversation.

Like i said, post the thread !!

See what you get back !! You won't do because you know people will tell you that your talking crap !!

To be honest, i should have stopped debating with you when you said that Toney was on the same level as Eubank.

As Jon says, it's either a wind up or you really don't know what the fornicate your talking about..................

[Quixall]

Like i said Kingfinn, there is such a thing as a concensus of opinion and also an informed opinion.................

What i would strongly advice you to do is put up a thread and ask these questions !!!

1. Would Calzaghe have beaten Hopkins at anytime in their careers

2. Would Calzaghe have beaten Jones in his prime at either 168lbs or 175lbs

3. Is Toney on the same level as Chris Eubank as a fighter

Then see what you get back !!

Remembering that whilst there are some idiots on this forum, there are also many knowledgeable posters, some directly involved with the sport as managers, trainers, boxers etc etc....!!

As i say, put up that thread amongst people who are no fools when it comes to knowing their sport and you will soon get your answers !!!!

That is all i have to say.

What is going on in youre head? Do you even watch boxing? We are not talking about Man U v Boston Utd We are talking about cream of the crop fighters against each other. Do you honestly think i would take other peoples opinions over my own. I think im right and i think you are wrong thats about as far as things will develop in this conversation.

Eubank beat James Toney?? eh wtf??


c'mon man this is a wind up?

Jon,

This is like talking to a guy with a clipboard round his neck saying "The end of the world is coming.............."

You just swerve, smile or grin and walk in the opposite direction DD

[Finn]

Like i said Kingfinn, there is such a thing as a concensus of opinion and also an informed opinion.................

What i would strongly advice you to do is put up a thread and ask these questions !!!

1. Would Calzaghe have beaten Hopkins at anytime in their careers

2. Would Calzaghe have beaten Jones in his prime at either 168lbs or 175lbs

3. Is Toney on the same level as Chris Eubank as a fighter

Then see what you get back !!

Remembering that whilst there are some idiots on this forum, there are also many knowledgeable posters, some directly involved with the sport as managers, trainers, boxers etc etc....!!

As i say, put up that thread amongst people who are no fools when it comes to knowing their sport and you will soon get your answers !!!!

That is all i have to say.

What is going on in youre head? Do you even watch boxing? We are not talking about Man U v Boston Utd We are talking about cream of the crop fighters against each other. Do you honestly think i would take other peoples opinions over my own. I think im right and i think you are wrong thats about as far as things will develop in this conversation.

Like i said, post the thread !!

See what you get back !! You won't do because you know people will tell you that your talking crap !!

To be honest, i should have stopped debating with you when you said that Toney was on the same level as Eubank.

As Jon says, it's either a wind up or you really don't know what the eff your talking about..................

Why would i post the thread, people agreeing with you isnt going to change my opinion. 63% of people on this site said helenius was going to ko chisora.

[Jon Saxon]

What is going on in youre head? Do you even watch boxing? We are not talking about Man U v Boston Utd We are talking about cream of the crop fighters against each other. Do you honestly think i would take other peoples opinions over my own. I think im right and i think you are wrong thats about as far as things will develop in this conversation.

Like i said, post the thread !!

See what you get back !! You won't do because you know people will tell you that your talking crap !!

To be honest, i should have stopped debating with you when you said that Toney was on the same level as Eubank.

As Jon says, it's either a wind up or you really don't know what the eff your talking about..................

Why would i post the thread, people agreeing with you isnt going to change my opinion. 63% of people on this site said helenius was going to ko chisora.

Yeah but they haven hindsight on this one and im willing to bet that you have very few who will agree with you on this.


Toney is an ATG Eubank (as much as I love the mad fuk) is not.
Toney goes to the Hall Eubank doesnt.

How simple is that for you?

[Finn]

Like i said, post the thread !!

See what you get back !! You won't do because you know people will tell you that your talking crap !!

To be honest, i should have stopped debating with you when you said that Toney was on the same level as Eubank.

As Jon says, it's either a wind up or you really don't know what the eff your talking about..................

Why would i post the thread, people agreeing with you isnt going to change my opinion. 63% of people on this site said helenius was going to ko chisora.

Yeah but they haven hindsight on this one and im willing to bet that you have very few who will agree with you on this.


Toney is an ATG Eubank (as much as I love the mad fuk) is not.
Toney goes to the Hall Eubank doesnt.

How simple is that for you?

Toney is an all time great for his entire career not his reign at super middle weight. How simple is that for you?

[Jon Saxon]

Why would i post the thread, people agreeing with you isnt going to change my opinion. 63% of people on this site said helenius was going to ko chisora.

Yeah but they haven hindsight on this one and im willing to bet that you have very few who will agree with you on this.


Toney is an ATG Eubank (as much as I love the mad fuk) is not.
Toney goes to the Hall Eubank doesnt.

How simple is that for you?

Toney is an all time great for his entire career not his reign at super middle weight. How simple is that for you?

Toney was an ATG for MW/SM before he even beat the Russian for the CW.
Jones beat ATG Hopkins at MW and ATG Toney at SM.
He didnt do much a LH really.
mate you are kidding, please tell me you are kidding this is madness.

In fact I think you are hding behind your own words as you know you points are feeble.


Do you want to put it to a vote with comments from the smart ones on here?

we coud do it accross all the forums if you want? Boxrec Dogpound, eastside etc?

[Finn]

Yeah but they haven hindsight on this one and im willing to bet that you have very few who will agree with you on this.


Toney is an ATG Eubank (as much as I love the mad fuk) is not.
Toney goes to the Hall Eubank doesnt.

How simple is that for you?

Toney is an all time great for his entire career not his reign at super middle weight. How simple is that for you?

Toney was an ATG for MW/SM before he even beat the Russian for the CW.
Jones beat ATG Hopkins at MW and ATG Toney at SM.
He didnt do much a LH really.
mate you are kidding, please tell me you are kidding this is madness.

In fact I think you are hding behind your own words as you know you points are feeble.


Do you want to put it to a vote with comments from the smart ones on here?

we coud do it accross all the forums if you want? Boxrec Dogpound, eastside etc?

i find i funny that you and quixall are so desperate to put it to a vote. How many boxing experts said degale was going to beat groves. It means nothing to me i already know the majority of people rate RJJ over calzaghe and Toney over Eubank. That s doesnt make you right, you do understand that dont you.

Maybe you are easily swayed by other peoples opinions rather than believe in your own boxing instincts and expect me to be the same.

[Jon Saxon]

Toney is an all time great for his entire career not his reign at super middle weight. How simple is that for you?

Toney was an ATG for MW/SM before he even beat the Russian for the CW.
Jones beat ATG Hopkins at MW and ATG Toney at SM.
He didnt do much a LH really.
mate you are kidding, please tell me you are kidding this is madness.

In fact I think you are hding behind your own words as you know you points are feeble.


Do you want to put it to a vote with comments from the smart ones on here?

we coud do it accross all the forums if you want? Boxrec Dogpound, eastside etc?

i find i funny that you and quixall are so desperate to put it to a vote. How many boxing experts said degale was going to beat groves. It means nothing to me i already know the majority of people rate RJJ over calzaghe and Toney over Eubank. That s doesnt make you right, you do understand that dont you.

Maybe you are easily swayed by other peoples opinions rather than believe in your own boxing instincts and expect me to be the same.

Peace man just trying to educate you on the sort we love

[Quixall]

Kingfinn, fair enough, everyone has an opinion however bizzare that opinion may be and all opinion is subjective. But as i have said before, opinions can be measured by whether or not a concensus can be gained on any particular subject. So whilst it's fine to hold an opinion that only a tiny majority of people believe, the rest of society works on the basis that bonafide opinion comes about through the vast majority of people thinking or believing roughly the same things. There will be people that think that robbery and murder should go unpunished or that the holocaust never existed, but the majority of people will think that robbery and murder should be dealt with through criminal proceedings and that the holocaust clearly existed and was a horrific event in the history of human kind and should have be dealt with through the courts and the death penalty.

Now, whilst sport is clearly a less serious subject, the same principles apply. If the vast majority of people, which will include fools, the shit kicker, the sensible and the special all believe in one thing or agree on the basic assumptiuon of something, then invariably it will contain within it a large degree of truth. Someone like myself or my friend Mr Saxon trying to convince you to change or reconsider your viewpoints is an entirely different matter with regard to establishing a truth or sense of objectivityabout a particular subject. A person may believe that Elvis Presley is not dead but works in their local Asda or that Wales will win the football world cup and whilst they have every right to hold these views, it has to said that by the principles set out earlier, Society would deem them eccentric and not worthy of listening too and prefer instead the opinion set down by the majority.

The theory of consensus can be tried out and here, on this very site

[Bricks]

interesting dicussion, but i am afraid calzaghe, benn and eubank are simply not in the league of the other guys mentioned, they were not proper world champions only local champions in that they were not the best in the world in there weight by a long shot and were able to pick and choose their challengers because of the TV money generated in britian and the pathetic WBO title.
Eubank fighting the likes of dan sherry and gary stretch, do us a favour. They were promoted by the british media to appear to be the best in the world in order to sell the TV fights to the ignorant british public.

Calzaghe would have been a difficult fight for anyone at Super-Middleweight. And I'm one of his biggest critics.

Toney would have won, too cute for Calzaghe, too tough and too hard hitting. Jones Jr would I think have pissed on him. Styles make fights, and Calzaghe would never have coped with Jones's speed and angles.

Calzaghe was a great fighter, but Jones Junior at 168 was absolutely phenomenal, he was pretty much untouchable - I know there were rumours of Toney being weight drained before the fight - but Jones I think anyway just had too much, he absolutely played with Toney, and JT is an all time great and lock for the hall of fame - sure patchy career, but undeniable ATG skills - Jones made him look clumsy and hapless.

Calzaghe's work rate wouldn't have been enough to keep Jones honest in my opinion, he would have been chasing shadows all night. Look how Calzaghe struggled with Hopkins - and Hopkins didn't have half the speed Jones did.

Who did Calzaghe ever face in his career who was comparable to Jones Junior - nobody - Kessler was his best win in my opinion - and Kessler is a B+ whereas Jones Jr is an A * - Jones Jr's late career has made people forget just how special he was, especially at 168 - it's a shame Jones couldn't stay there longer, he had serious power at 168.

Exactly Toney would have chin rolled and pot shotted Calzaghe to hell and made him look crude which he wasnt. If you remember how robin reid crashed huge right hands on Calzaghe all nite long....oh my goodness i shudder to think what a peak 90s toney would have done to a late 90's early 2000's Joe. Joe at his peak years at SM which were the Lacey Kessler years would have been a tough fight for Toney but not for RJJ.

[Bricks]

apart from Toney, Jones beat nobody? Ummm what about Sugar Boy Malinga who beat Benn (twice for my money) and could have easily got the decision against Eubank.... Tony Thorton who gave Eubank problems, KO'd decisively against Jones. What about Eric Lucas, who went on to KO Catley (who is better than Stretch).

Come on King finn, to say all of Jones' SMW opponents were leagues below Stretch is stretching it (pun very much intended) a bit.

Steve Collins was a sly one, yes he did go to the states to call out Roy Jones.... he did go to Square Ring for showdown talks.... and came out there telling the world Roy Jones' doesn't want the fight. Forgets to tell the world the minor detail that he demanded something like 7 million or no fight. Off course Steve would have fought him for that figure..... but the fight would have been not fancially viable.

Sorry James, but if I am not mistaken - Nigel said something similar in his retirement. He knew post McClellan he was finished, he knew he was on a hiding in facing Jones. He would have taken the fight though in a heart beat providing the money was correct - and only providing the money was correct. It would have been his pension fund.

I didn't know that about Benn, but after the McClellan fight he was probably not interested in getting a hiding, before that I reckon he would have taken the shot at Jones.

Jones absolutely dominated everyone he fought at 168 - you cannot argue with that. He wasn't at the weight long, so you cannot really critisize him considering he beat Toney and Lucas in that time. His win over Toney, is better than anything Eubank, Collins, Calzaghe or Benn ever achieved.

well benn started these stories after collins beat him twice and he had made the money. The truth is after beating Mclellan he was on a high and fought and made quick title defences where he looked neither shot nor unmotivated. It was the Malinga beating that took something out of him forever. Than he fought Collins and although the reality is he was physically very competent , mentally he thought "F IT" and wasnt prepared really to go in the trenches for 12 rounds....he quit in both fights which were more or less even hard fought battles. I think he realised even if he put his body and soul on the line to carry on fighting Collins in the second for another 6 rounds he wasnt going to get Jones jnr, mccallum was finished and toney was no longer financially or prestige wise worth, and he knew by than Jones would have massacred him anyway.