Joe Frazier v Sonny Liston

[gilgamesh]

If Frazier could withstand the early assault from Liston, I could see him wearing down Liston with a steady body attack and of course that vicious left hook of his and scraping home a tough Unanimous decision victory. A late TKO is not out of the question either.

[Goodnight, Irene]

In terms of punching power and speed (or relative lack thereof) Liston and Foreman are very compatible, but not as technicians. Liston was streets ahead on that front.

Agreed. Doesnt really help Frazier, does it :)

[yancey]

If Frazier could withstand the early assault from Liston, I could see him wearing down Liston with a steady body attack and of course that vicious left hook of his and scraping home a tough Unanimous decision victory. A late TKO is not out of the question either.

Very possible.

I do think that if your scenario plays out and Frazier works the body, Sonny won't be around for rd 15.

[Goodnight, Irene]

In terms of punching power and speed (or relative lack thereof) Liston and Foreman are very compatible, but not as technicians. Liston was streets ahead on that front.

Well that's the theory......but Foreman appeared to be rather effective for all his "technical" weaknesses. Maybe it's that "psyche thing" he had goin' for him over the long haul.


Yance, back in the OLD OLD days, Frazier would prosper pretty well, because he would simply get up, and get back into the next round despite any setbacks in round 22 or any half dozen knockdowns earlier in the fight that might have come his way. (Something worth considering here). I wouldnt' be surprised if Joe got up out of his grave for one more round even today.

Sonny on the other hand, once leveled, (or even winded?) seemed to have serious "balance" issues. Though some would say his heart was strong....others may be persueded to think differently. He was a fella more likely to appreciate the meaning of "rest in peace".

Or at least that would be some folks take on this.


And G.I. relax and eat your damn peas....and quit whining. The reference to the fight with Jumbo Cummings is about as relevant as the reference to your mom within this thread title. Though I'm sure being your mom would give any good woman a clear case of "high motivation" when it comes to dealin' out some ol' fashion Joe Frazier style discipline on their young 'un.

"balance" issues, I love it.

Irene, listen to the man and eat your peas.

Theres only one person here eating up Buzz's slop

[Goodnight, Irene]

If Frazier could withstand the early assault from Liston, I could see him wearing down Liston with a steady body attack and of course that vicious left hook of his and scraping home a tough Unanimous decision victory. A late TKO is not out of the question either.

Good post.

I do think that if your scenario plays out and Frazier works the body, Sonny won't be around for rd 15.

"If Frazier could withstand the early assault from Liston..."

If Foreman could stick and move for fifteen rounds...

If Tunney could end a fight with one punch...

If Tyson could fight backing up...

[yancey]

If Frazier could withstand the early assault from Liston, I could see him wearing down Liston with a steady body attack and of course that vicious left hook of his and scraping home a tough Unanimous decision victory. A late TKO is not out of the question either.

Good post.

I do think that if your scenario plays out and Frazier works the body, Sonny won't be around for rd 15.

"If Frazier could withstand the early assault from Liston..."

If Foreman could stick and move for fifteen rounds...

If Tunney could end a fight with one punch...

If Tyson could fight backing up...

If Sonny didn't have "balance" issues...

[Goodnight, Irene]

Foreman had stamina issues, so no doubt Frazier could drown him in the later rounds, and the same with Liston.

Thats damn right...thing is, in practice, its like me saying I'll have two fights with a great white shark...first in the water, then on the land. I have a big advantage on the land, so if I can, "weather," the early going...

[yancey]

Foreman had stamina issues, so no doubt Frazier could drown him in the later rounds, and the same with Liston.

Thats damn right...thing is, in practice, its like me saying I'll have two fights with a great white shark...first in the water, then on the land. I have a big advantage on the land, so if I can, "weather," the early going...

Jacques Cousteau encountered his first Great White and was scared shiteless.

The thing is, apparently the Great White had the same feelings because according to Cousteau, the Great White took a big dump and immediately split.

How do we know that Frazier doesn't get in one good lick in the very early going that changes everything? Foreman himself said he was scared in Jamaica. That is why if absolute prime Frazier is allowed to fight his fight and get to the inside and stay there early enough, that early onslaught might not be so completely one-sided and the opponent might not be so fearless. Frazier needs to get his head on the other guy's chest, which could well happen if we are talking the '69 version.

[Goodnight, Irene]

He would not negotiate the Liston jab, for starters. And unlike Foreman, Liston was a capable in-fighter. LIKE Foreman, he had far more power than Frazier proved he could handle.

[Seamus]

In the make believe world of BOTP, Liston pisses on almost any heavyweight who ever lived. In the real world his best wins are over chinny Floyd Patterson.

[Goodnight, Irene]

In the make believe world of BOTP, Liston pisses on almost any heavyweight who ever lived. In the real world his best wins are over chinny Floyd Patterson.

Most famous win, maybe. Foley was a better win. Who had Foreman beaten, relative to Frazier, in 73? No one even close to the champs level. History is literally choking with such examples.

Liston had quite an impressive resume (as did Frazier, naturally). Youd only make a fool of yourself to contest that.

[BoxBuzz]

OK. Here is one thing we can all agree upon when it comes to Sonny.

He is the only HW champion in history to appear on the cover of the Sgt Pepper album.


......and that Foley was a good win on Sonny's resume. Machen is another.

[yancey]

OK. Here is one thing we can all agree upon when it comes to Sonny.

He is the only HW champion in history to appear on the cover of the Sgt Pepper album.


......and that Foley was a good win on Sonny's resume. Machen is another.

Surprised no one is mentioning the Cleveland Williams wins.

They weren't notable?

[Bricks]

Thats like stating the sky is blue, or Mugabi is Oxford alumni D

In 1971, Frazier was Ali's toughest foe by a MILLION FUCKEN MILES. Nobody prior to Frazier in 71 got anywhere CLOSE to providing Ali with that type of challenge.

or like meeting an educated Australian!! DD

Hey dumbass, those were examples of the bleeding obvious, not oxymorons.

Fvck, youre a dipsh!t

Okay URINEIEE I was willing to call a truce, and be polite to you, even though a hissy fit throwing sheila like you doesnt deserve it! . Oh for fucks sake give me your address and Ill pay for you to be sent to a local Oxford primary school so that you can finally get some upbringing and learn some manners! bloody aussie bushmen!

[Goodnight, Irene]

I love you Mugabi, I really do

[Bricks]

Anyway why the fornicate havent you started a decent Jeff Harding thread yet. That bloke deserves a thread. A superb Aussie boxer one of my favourites.

[Goodnight, Irene]

OK. Here is one thing we can all agree upon when it comes to Sonny.

He is the only HW champion in history to appear on the cover of the Sgt Pepper album.


......and that Foley was a good win on Sonny's resume. Machen is another.

Surprised no one is mentioning the Cleveland Williams wins.

They weren't notable?

Williams, Foley, Patterson, Machen...Liston's CV was a damn sturdy one. He fought tough on the way up too. Very few cans for the young Liston (or the old one, for that matter).

[King Carlos]

In terms of punching power and speed (or relative lack thereof) Liston and Foreman are very compatible, but not as technicians. Liston was streets ahead on that front.

Agreed. Doesnt really help Frazier, does it :)

No. No, it doesn't.

[BoxBuzz]

Frazier, Ali, and Foreman "shocked the world" on their best nights.

Some fighters are just full of surprises ain"t they?

Did Sonny "Outperform expectations"? When he KO'd Patterson? OK, some will say that was shocking I suppose.

His most shocking moments were probably when he fell short. Like Tyson he was sort of constructed to eventually collapse. Each saving their most relevant moments for their declines.

"Jumping the synapse" is something some folks just can't fathom. And yet it's flat out as real as it gets. And usually that prime bit of real estate is owned by those fighters with "iron psyche constitutions."

Not the Liston's and the Tyson's as much as the Ali's, Frazier's and perhaps Holyfield's. (lol ok I"m goin' for your buttons with EH lol) Foreman demonstrated how you can travel inexplicably from one side of these tracks to the other.

Some fighters are hard to peg by the "assessors". And they outperform expectations...because they can.


Maybe Sonny SHOULD beat Joe....but he wouldn't. IMHO.

[Brutu]

Just out of curiosity,has anyone here even seen a photograph
of Joe Frazier and Sonny Liston together?
Liston left Philadelphia for Denver around the same time
Frazier started boxing there.
Which gym did Liston train at in Philadelphia?
I think I saw both Willie Reddish and Milt Bailey as seconds with Yank Durham in Fraziers corner,
when Frazier fought Oscar Bonavena in 1966.
Liston had parted with both after his fight with Ali in Lewiston Maine May 1965.

[Bricks]

Had to think really hard about this one......a prime Frazier was as good at slipping jabs as almost any HW in history..... in the 1971 match Ali found that out just as Ellis and others had.....by the time Ali faced Joe again he had realised standing and sitting on jabs and punches was more effective than dancing with a remorseless Frazier. Listons jab was not a dancing flurrying jab, it was a ramrod nose busting mouth busting pole, and it would bust FRazier i think.....this would be a very very competitive matchup ..it isnt Foreman Frazier 1 hell no.....it would be very competitive for 7-8 rounds than over the next 3-4 Liston would start to push Frazier back and claim the centre ground as his....a bloodied Frazier would eventually slump similar to the ending of the second foreman fight.

I dont buy any of that he was kayoed by Ali crap....that was a dive at the mobs behest... and the liston that fought ali was already old....im considering the younger prime liston here who wins.

[Seamus]

C'mon GI, you of all people ! Liston had more good names on his resume than Foreman, but George's blowouts of Frazier and Norton trump anything Liston ever did. And then there's the fact that Foreman came back from the dead to stop Lyle, while Liston quit against Clay because he said he hurt his shoulder.

[Jaywheel]

URINEIEE

It doesn't get funny, as many times as you write it Mugabi.

[Goodnight, Irene]

C'mon GI, you of all people ! Liston had more good names on his resume than Foreman, but George's blowouts of Frazier and Norton trump anything Liston ever did. And then there's the fact that Foreman came back from the dead to stop Lyle, while Liston quit against Clay because he said he hurt his shoulder.

What Im saying is, Liston's CV is clearly stronger than Foreman's pre-Frazier one.

Foreman did not struggle to overcome Frazier, and Liston (IMO, a greater boxer than Foreman), wouldnt either.

[Syntax Error]

I really don't fancy Frazier's chances against a peak Liston.

Liston is the wrong type of opponent for Smokin' Joe IMO; too tough & aggressive.

The only way Joe could have any success is if he could somehow stay under Liston's octopus tentacle like reach & keep himself buried on Liston's chest, but I cannot see that happening as Liston would have been stronger & more powerful.

I don't see a Foreman like massacre, but I do think Liston would probably have won on points or a late TKO, with the ref having to intervene.