Carlos Monzon vs. Jake LaMotta

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 15 Dec 2005, 11:45

Thoughts on this matchup?

I am of the opinion Monzon had far too much of everything for LaMotta. Monzon was not only taller and had a much longer reach, but he knew how to use it well. He was a very good inside fighter for his height, and possessed great strength - Monzon's upper body was actually quite big. He punched harder than LaMotta too, and easily had the stamina to go fifteen rounds, despite smoking cigarettes at regular intervals during training and partying until the early hours. Perhaps Monzon's best ability was how he could figure a man out, disrupt his rhythm and take over the fight.
LaMotta, while tough as nails and a good bodypuncher, does not have the firepower to take out the iron-chinned Monzon, and does not have the reach or boxing skills to stand at range with him. His best bet would be to try and get inside and rough Monzon up and hope to take a decision.

I could see LaMotta finding success in the early rounds against the slow starting Monzon by hitting the body and hooking to the head the way Napoles did. LaMotta was not as fast nor as skilled as Napoles, but he was far stronger than him at middleweight. Monzon would finally start to take over around the fourth frame and would start to poleaxe LaMotta with that heavy, accurate right hand and textbook left jab. LaMotta becomes weaker and weaker until he finally becomes nothing more than a punchbag near round ten like he did with Robinson. *Monzon continues to pummel LaMotta before stopping him in the late rounds.

*Monzon is underrated as a puncher. He stopped granite-chinned fighters such as Emile Griffith and Nino Benvenuti, and gave hard punching champion Rodrigo Valdez the beating of his life. He became the first man to stop Tony Licata, and was also the first to stop Jean-Claude Bouttier and also Tom Bogs. Infact, Monzon was the only man to stop Napoles on anything but cuts in his entire career, even if he was really a welterweight. Monzon's right hand was terribly accurate, and really bust guys up. It was a heavy punch that would land time and time again, hurting no matter where it landed.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 15 Dec 2005, 12:28

I like your assessment all except for LaMotta getting stopped. I don't see that happening. La Motta was iron chinned and, if not weight drained, would have been their at the end of the fight no matter who he fought at MW.

I can't see anyone who takes ther aggressor role beating Monzon. I think fighters who could make him the agressor and force him to lead would make him struggle. Jake can't do this. La Motta is a great one but Monzon wins this latch up almost every time IMO.

Jake would still have some good rounds in there and it would competitive throughout...

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 15 Dec 2005, 12:28

I think LaMotta's pressuring style would give Monzon trouble for about 3 rounds, then Carlos would figure him out find his rhythm and give LaMotta a boxing lesson for the rest of the bout. At the end I see the decision going something like 146-139 for Monzon.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 15 Dec 2005, 12:40

I'm not sure I rate Monzon the best Middle of all time, however I may need to rethink this since I do not beleive there is anyone who beats him head to head. And Lamotta is not one of the ones I think would have a shot.

I'm going to get pummeled for this but I think the two best of all time are Monzon and Robinson and I think Robinson would have his hands full with Monzon and lose more often than win. And here is where I really get to be the target .... I don't think Hagler would beat either Robinson or Monzon.

A good fight would be Hagler and LaMotta and I think there has been a thread on this already.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 15 Dec 2005, 12:44

It's a shame a young Hagler never got in with the old Monzon. They are two greats who very nearly overlapped enough to have met.

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 15 Dec 2005, 12:51

Ezzard wrote:It's a shame a young Hagler never got in with the old Monzon. They are two greats who very nearly overlapped enough to have met.

Hagler did actually nearly fight Monzon in December '77. His people got in touch with Monzon's people and the fight was being arranged, Monzon started training but realized he hadn't got enough left, so he called it off. I respect Monzon as I do Hagler for not returning once they left.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 15 Dec 2005, 21:50

Monzon by lopsided decision. Should be decent amount of action, but most of the scoring would be by Monzon.

vagabundo55 · Post by **vagabundo55** » 15 Dec 2005, 21:52

Ambling Alp wrote:Monzon by lopsided decision. Should be decent amount of action, but most of the scoring would be by Monzon.

I agree with this. Monzon by UD.

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 27 Dec 2005, 15:40

Bump. More opinions please

tiredoldngrey · Post by **tiredoldngrey** » 27 Dec 2005, 20:29

Monzon was not the most mobile of boxers and he like his distance, which it seems that he kept by using a long jab and a long right hand and this hurt them and discouraged them from getting close. La Motta had one of the best chins in boxing and he was relentless in coming forward. I don't know- I haven't seen him enough- if Monzon fought well inside, if he could hang with LaMotta. Don't know if that would win the fight for LaMotta but I believe it would ruffle Monzon.

dnahar32 · Post by **dnahar32** » 28 Dec 2005, 19:40

I think Monzon wins, if he keeps the fight boring, but he would have a lot of trouble with Jake. Because unlike most of Monzon's opponents, LaMotta would keep on taking punches without becoming gunshy about coming in. LaMotta took one of the worst beatings in the history of boxing against Robinson and his only response was "You never got me down, Ray." You look at Monzon on tape and he basically parries people away with the jab and they become less likely to engage. How would he react to LaMotta coming inside on him after taking his jabs? LaMotta threw caution aside and would keep punching on the inside, and even mix in some low blows to divert your attention. How would Monzon react? That's the question that makes this a very intriguing fight and why I think LaMotta has a chance to beat Monzon.

Lausse · Post by **Lausse** » 28 Dec 2005, 20:14

On his best day i think LaMotta had a very good chance of beating Monzon because of his style,a granite chinned fighter with a high workrate and strenght sapping body attack would have given him alot of trouble i think.Jake didnt have the power to really hurt Monzon,but his incredible stamina, high workrate, relentless body attack and ability to cut off the ring and bull his opponents into the ropes would definately have given him a good chance at victory.LaMotta throughout his career was really a lightheavy slimming down to middleweight and although not a powerful hitter he was very, very strong physically and is one of the few middleweights in history who i feel would have outmuscled Monzon on the inside.Jake was also nowhere as easy to hit as many people believe,he rolled and slipped punches very well and would certainly be harder to hit than Monzon would expect.

Also,I cant help but think of the trouble Bennie Briscoe gave Carlos with his come forward all night long pressuring tactics that had Monzon on the backfoot most of the night in their draw in Monzons native Argentina.Briscoe although a very tough and durable fighter was no LaMotta in terms of skill and ability,and yet he gave Carlos all he could handle all night long.Jake took the best that the murderous punching Bob Satterfield could unload on him and walked through him to stop him in the 7th,and although Monzon certainly could whack with the best of them he was no Satterfield when it came to punching power and he wouldnt have the firepower to make Jake respect him and keep him away.

But with that said Carlos was a great, great fighter who always found a way to win and i could see him boxing and moving all night long while throwing that jab and heavy right cross to try and keep LaMotta at bay.This fight would certainly go the distance as both had rock solid chins so it would come down to what the judges preffered,Monzons effective long range counterpunching and boxing or LaMottas relentless aggression and body attack on the inside.I think if Carlos was the defending champion and LaMotta the challenger i feel LaMotta would win this fight,his lifelong dream was to be champion and i think he would have pulled out all the stops and gone that extra mile and done whatever it took to win.Either way, this one would have been an incredible fight, id give 2 years off of my life to have seen this one live ringside at their best at MSG.

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 28 Dec 2005, 20:22

The Raging B(_)LL wrote:On his best day i think LaMotta had a very good chance of beating Monzon because of his style,a granite chinned fighter with a high workrate and strenght sapping body attack would have given him alot of trouble i think.Jake didnt have the power to really hurt Monzon,but his incredible stamina, high workrate, relentless body attack and ability to cut off the ring and bull his opponents into the ropes would definately have given him a good chance at victory.LaMotta throughout his career was really a lightheavy slimming down to middleweight and although not a powerful hitter he was very, very strong physically and is one of the few middleweights in history who i feel would have outmuscled Monzon on the inside.Jake was also nowhere as easy to hit as many people believe,he rolled and slipped punches very well and would certainly be harder to hit than Monzon would expect.

Also,I cant help but think of the trouble Bennie Briscoe gave Carlos with his come forward all night long pressuring tactics that had Monzon on the backfoot most of the night in their draw in Monzons native Argentina.Briscoe although a very tough and durable fighter was no LaMotta in terms of skill and ability,and yet he gave Carlos all he could handle all night long.Jake took the best that the murderous punching Bob Satterfield could unload on him and walked through him to stop him in the 7th,and although Monzon certainly could whack with the best of them he was no Satterfield when it came to punching power and he wouldnt have the firepower to make Jake respect him and keep him away.

But with that said Carlos was a great, great fighter who always found a way to win and i could see him boxing and moving all night long while throwing that jab and heavy right cross to try and keep LaMotta at bay.This fight would certainly go the distance as both had rock solid chins so it would come down to what the judges preffered,Monzons effective long range counterpunching and boxing or LaMottas relentless aggression and body attack on the inside.I think if Carlos was the defending champion and LaMotta the challenger i feel LaMotta would win this fight,his lifelong dream was to be champion and i think he would have pulled out all the stops and gone that extra mile and done whatever it took to win.Either way, this one would have been an incredible fight, id give 2 years off of my life to have seen this one live ringside at their best at MSG.

Fair analysis. Although you must bear in mind that Monzon beat Briscoe by a very wide margin, it was almost a shut out. And while Briscoe was not quite as talented as LaMotta, he was most certainly a harder puncher.

Lausse · Post by **Lausse** » 28 Dec 2005, 21:42

DoubleM wrote: Fair analysis. Although you must bear in mind that Monzon beat Briscoe by a very wide margin, it was almost a shut out. And while Briscoe was not quite as talented as LaMotta, he was most certainly a harder puncher.

Granted,Bennie was indeed a harder puncher than LaMotta,but Jake in his younger days was quicker on his feet,had faster hands and a much higher workrate then Bennie.He also knew how to cut off the ring more effectively than Briscoe did and trap his opponents along the ropes whereas Briscoe basically just followed Monzon around and got countered for most of the night,but he did have his moments though and the fight was much closer then what the judges had it in my opinion.But Briscoe did put up a very good fight,he actually staggered Monzon in i believe the 9th round it was and made it a very hards night work for the Argentinian.Monzon could be beaten and a pressure fighter with an iron chin and high workrate in the mold of LaMotta would have given him trouble.Bennies chin was solid as a rock,but Monzons power did earn his respect though whereas LaMotta would not respect Carlos power and would just keep on coming in and wailing away at the argentinians thin frame all night long.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 30 Dec 2005, 15:14

.....i'm sometimes accused...perhaps correctly...of over rating lamotta and under rating monzon.....so with that out of the way.....i go with lamotta.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 30 Dec 2005, 15:55

Based on this Jaclem it appears you have lost your mind and will be officially certified on Tuesday morning when the state offices re-open.

Les Darcy · Post by **Les Darcy** » 30 Dec 2005, 22:53

monzon on points, la motta would win the first couple of rounds and finish very strongly, but monzon would dominate the middle rounds and win comfortably on points, i think a really great and competetive fight would be la motta against hagler

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 31 Dec 2005, 02:25

..now now, buzzy...we've gone through this one....at least regarding monzon...before. at least i admit my bias. i am aware that lamotta lost to lesser middleweights than monzon.... but i still see him steamrolling through the taller but more robotic one.

re: tuesday morning...my medication keeps me from such treatment by the state.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 31 Dec 2005, 12:36

Jaclem wrote:.. but i still see him steamrolling through the taller but more robotic one.

re: tuesday morning...my medication keeps me from such treatment by the state.

This is what I am talking about Jaclem these hallucinations you are having are disturbing the children. Only an intervention of this nature will suffice, you know it's for your own good.

Visions of LaMotta walking through Monzon!!....Ai yi yi what's next? Gatti walking through Chavez?

theone · Post by **theone** » 31 Dec 2005, 14:55

Lamotta is a vastly underrated middleweight. He was avoided for most of his prime like alot of black figfters. That being said, zMonzon is arguably the greatest middleweight that ever lived and I believe a level above Lamotta.
Lamotta may be able to take his best punches but Monzon chin was definitly sturdy enough to take the best the Bronx bull, who had modest power, could throw at him. I see this being a tough 15 rounder with Monzon landing more, cleaner, and harder punches. Monzon UD15.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 01 Jan 2006, 04:19

..buzzy..the problem with an intervention is they should be done by one's peers.....and.....i hate to be immodest but no one has ever been able to find any. that's the same reason i've never been able to be tried by a jury.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 01 Jan 2006, 10:16

in that case, my ongoing mentoring may be your sole option.

Though I will say that with but a few pebbles in your eye, (Monzon being one) your vision for boxing is extraordinary to say the least. I look forward to a new year full of your continued wit and wisdom.

But should you have visions of Gatti walking through Chavez please seek my counsel and mentoring ASAP. It could be signs of neuronic destabilization.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 03 Jan 2006, 10:01

Monzon on points

Roco · Post by **Roco** » 30 Jan 2012, 09:31

Agree with the consensus that Monzon takes this on points, but LaMotta gives him a tough fight.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 30 Jan 2012, 10:38

I think Monzon takes great enjoyment in turning Lamotta's face into a boutiqe italian pasta sauce. And it probably goes the distance as Lamotta would enjoy the beating as much as Carlos would enjoy doling it out. This would not be a good day for Jake, and he just MIGHT not visit the canvas. But he would visit the E room directly after the affair.....If he could fit it into his busy schedule.

Carlos Monzon vs. Jake LaMotta

Carlos Monzon vs. Jake LaMotta

Re: Carlos Monzon vs. Jake LaMotta

Re: Carlos Monzon vs. Jake LaMotta