Is it no wonder pro boxing is losing fans to unlicensed/mma?

[iftkwoody]

To be fair to ya Billy on paper this does look like a terrible match but I bet it turns out to be a great fight as most of phils do. As for saying this sort of match wouldn't get on a poorer unlicensed show is a joke!!! I have been to a handful of unlicensed shows and I have barely seen a sniff of talent. They are an absolute farce, the shows are disorganised and the fighters are terrible at best. Now I'm not saying unlicensed shows should be stopped but they shouldn't be able to be called semi pro which some try and make out they are. It is embarrassing when the mc of the night tries to sell the fights a bridging the gap between am and pro when clearly the fighters in the bout would not be able to lace an average journeyman boots. I think it is very disrespectful to phil that you would compare him with some of the tosh I have seen on the unlicensed circuit.

Im notthe saying allthe unlicensed is the same as like I say I have only been to a handful as I try to avoid them but here's a couple of examples to back up my claim

1. I went to a show and 2 of the guys fighting had never fought before one of which had only been training for 3 weeks before then he never knew what boxing was.

2. A good friend of mine was due to fight someone on a show he turned up and his opponent and smothers guys opponent didnt show so they fought eachother for a southern area title. My friend is now fighting for a british title on aanother show along with a few others from his gym that have only ever had 2 or 3 fights and some of their bouts are title eliminators.

Now I dont begrudge my friend his title shot but it pains me to hear him and others around him saying he is fighting for a british title!!! He's not he's fighting for a few quid thats it british title smitish title I think although the unlicensed scene is good for lads to have a fight that either can't be bothered or are not good enough to go pro or have a real crack at the ams it shouldn't be allowed to masquerade as a proper boxing show cos it just isn't.


All thats said I wish all the boys fighting amateur, unlicensed and pro all the health and hope they enjoy what they're doing I certainly do.

And phil all the best my son hopefully I can make it

[Jeff Thomas]

I watched an unlicensed fight the other day and the lad taking part didn't realise his opponent had taken the most blatant dive I've ever seen- that's unethical

[studlymclovin]

To be fair what's the problem with fighting a few journeymen to get experience under your belt, and since when was taking it slowly a crime??? If he goes and jumps in too quickly to the big names he could well end up ruining his career before its even started, I think the way he's going about his business is fine and any real fan of boxing should be able to appreciate that he's just trying to get a good footing.... these days you either have to have an Olympic medal or an unbeaten record to get the breaks so fair play to him.

Oh and as far as the reference to unliscenced goes that is absolute rubbish, the amateurs at my club would put on a better show than they ever do, most of its rigged anyway

[Quixall]

I know where you are coming from Billy and i agree that sometimes the board are taking the piss when they call fighters with appalling records "professional". The half way house would be to have a ruling that fighters can only be matched if their records compare with each other to a degree set down by the board. It's up for debate what the parameters should be but if you have a record of won 4 lost 25 as an example, then in my opinion you should loose your professional status, nevermind be put on a show fighting a guy who could be 13 and nil. I think there is a half way house to be reached on this subject.

[studlymclovin]

I know where you are coming from Billy and i agree that sometimes the board are taking the piss when they call fighters with appalling records "professional". The half way house would be to have a ruling that fighters can only be matched if their records compare with each other to a degree set down by the board. It's up for debate what the parameters should be but if you have a record of won 4 lost 25 as an example, then in my opinion you should loose your professional status, nevermind be put on a show fighting a guy who could be 13 and nil. I think there is a half way house to be reached on this subject.

Yeah that's all well and good but without these journeymen the sport is nothing, you need those guys to bring the young prospects on

[kells]

records mean nothing,u cud hav a guy won 1 lost 20,but look at who hes boxed on that record or his notice hes had and u get a picture of why he has that record and its not because he aint a decent boxer. u giv alot of these journeymen notice and the rite fights at the right time and they wud have way better records. thers guys out ther wiv loss after loss who wud walk thru the unlicence circuit. yes ther are sum gud lads who do unlicenced but dnt read to much into records wen u said urself its not the boxer its the match makers

[clintonmcphilbin]

records mean nothing,u cud hav a guy won 1 lost 20,but look at who hes boxed on that record or his notice hes had and u get a picture of why he has that record and its not because he aint a decent boxer. u giv alot of these journeymen notice and the rite fights at the right time and they wud have way better records. thers guys out ther wiv loss after loss who wud walk thru the unlicence circuit. yes ther are sum gud lads who do unlicenced but dnt read to much into records wen u said urself its not the boxer its the match makers

Totally agree a mate of mine jody meilkle as won 1 lost 14 but he puts up a fight every time he is in the ring and never turns a fight down

[kells]

That's wot I mean pal on paper he looks bad but u go deeper into it than his record and he's more than capable of being allowed in the ring with these prospects.the likes of ur mate save these promoters wen ther shows are goin down the pan

[taffytoon]

I know where you are coming from Billy and i agree that sometimes the board are taking the piss when they call fighters with appalling records "professional". The half way house would be to have a ruling that fighters can only be matched if their records compare with each other to a degree set down by the board. It's up for debate what the parameters should be but if you have a record of won 4 lost 25 as an example, then in my opinion you should loose your professional status, nevermind be put on a show fighting a guy who could be 13 and nil. I think there is a half way house to be reached on this subject.

So going on this Johnny Greaves and MOST journeymen would not be able to fight week in week out? And getting back to the unlicensed shows, I have been to one and hated it, it was a mixture of mms fighters trying boxing, the first fight was a farce with the mms lad kicking the boxer 4 times in the first round even though every time he did this he was reminded he was supposed to be using the queensberry rules, in the second round he swept the boxers legs and he fell hard, the cornerman of the boxer then jumped in the ring and started fighting the mms lad eventually throwing him out the ring. But that was nothing compared to the heavyweight fight where I witnessed an old man who looked like he had just come from the local boozer take a beating from a much leaner and younger fighter. It was just awful to watch and I have never been to another show and doubt I will again. Oh and before I forget in 2 of the 5 fights I watched the referee punched a fighter who had squared up to him, now believe me I have been too hundreds ( not exaggerating) of professional shows all over the UK and I have never seen a pro referee have a fight with one of the boxers or a licenced trainer or second jump in the ring and fight a boxer.

[damianhucker1]

Taffy toon you are either talking bollocks or was extremely unlucky , never seen anything like that on an unlicensed show and im at one pretty much 2 or 3 times per month , i do my own shows and i take lads to box away too .

Most Unlicensed shows wouldnt put on a fight like the one mentioned above , i know i wouldnt ....but thats not phills fault , id imagine phill wants tougher fights , to move up the rankings and to one day fight for a title but unfortunately its not the way boxing works .

Everything comes down to finances at the end of the day

[Wake up call]

Robin Deakin has only won once and he engaged in a thriller with Ryan Taylor last week. Records mean nowt.

[Boxing Pirate]

Unlicensed Boxing/White Collar, whatever you want to call it will strangle boxing in the end.

Why? because there is simply not the consistency with regards to the medical side of things and fairness in match ups.

No doubt there will be cries and moans from them who do ensure the safety of the boxers but I have seen weigh in's take place 3 to 6 months before a fight and for there not to be another. I have seen truly outrageous match ups so the home fighter can look good in front of his fans and then the promoter can lay claim to having a world beater on his hands.

Yes the shows do have some exciting fights like any other show but on the whole there are a lot of white collar or unlicensed boxers who do not give a toss about the safety of their boxers, they are intent on only maximising ticket sales and making a profit on the show, whilst it is a business the safety of boxers is paramount and not making world champions of their hometown but as soon as they fight anyone outside that is any good they fall flat on their arse.

[Jeff Thomas]

The only thing that pisses me off is having to find £1000 to pay medicals and stuff fornicating nightmare

[Boxing Pirate]

The only thing that pisses me off is having to find £1000 to pay medicals and stuff effing nightmare

I agree in the professional world medical fees and things like that are very expensive, however in the professional ranks everything medical and to a point the legal ramifications of something going wrong are covered.

I have seen things with my own eyes where in the white collar world there are certain shows where the promoter is getting away with it, but one day something horrible is going to happen and it will open up a massive legal issue and will bring all forms of boxing into massive disrepute with the do gooders of this world. Professional boxing has itself covered if the worst case scenario happens, I defy anyone in the white collar/unlicensed world to say this area has been tested yet, when it does it will cause a whole lot of upset.

[Boxing Pirate]

Come on Damian Hucker and Billy Bessey I know the both of you run tight ships but come on here and say all the other promoters within your sphere of work do exactly as you do by covering yourselves both medically and legally. Then on top of that, who sanctions your bouts to ensure fair play with regards over inflating world champions in a blokes own hometown?

Dont just come on here abusing people who go against your opinions, from a legal perspective I have seen personally so called legal disclaimers which a fighter so called signs on the night or day of his fight, they are laughable from a legal point of view to say the very least.

White Collar boxing or whatever you want to call it would be very good if the medical and legal side of things were properly covered but sorry there is not a chance they are at this stage, yes by the minority, but not by the majority.

[HellraiserBoxing]

Yawn, Billy why don't you stop bitching & try putting some pro shows on. It seems like you are constantly whining about everything that everyone else does. If you don't like our shows don't come, I don't think I don't think you realise the light it puts you in to be going on about how my shows & fighters are all a big fraud but your unlicensed shows are all genuine fights? Can you name a fighter who became a British champ that came from the pile of crap that is 'semi pro'? I can't .

I'm actually looking forward to Phil's fight against Ibrar Riaz. Riaz is much better than his record & is a quality journeyman, rarely in a bad fight as is Phil. No ones billing this as a world title, which I've often seen far worse fights billed as on unlicensed.

[Jeff Thomas]

The way I look at it is this, and this isn't me slagging anybody - each to their own. If I wanted to impress my mates and box lads who I know I was likely to stop or outclass I'd box ebf. No medical bills, can sell tickets easy as local people are on, and you can drinking the venue. I can pretend to my mates that I'm semi pro and they'll think I'm brill battering lads who aren't really arsed about been there.

I box pro because I want to achieve something I'm proud of - where there's a record of it and where I'm fighting other lads who are mentally and physically sound. I want to fight lads who are decent and worth the effort I put in the gym. I've seen some pretty decent unlicensed bouts to be fair that wouldn't be out of place in a novice pro or amateur ring. But at the same time where's the legacy, where's the kudos, for all that effort what's the prize?

I know a lot of the unlicensed guys like spencer brown and he's a good guy and a hard worker. Credit to them for what they do but I know my initial reaction to hearing someone is a semi pro or alternatively licenced boxer. I've seen too many joke fights. They need to do aways with them. I actually heard they were considering some sort of emalgemation between the bbbc and ebf. Not sure if that's true...

Good luck to all anyway, just my opinion. My sons will box amateur and then pro if their good enough.

[milpool]

Johnny Greaves, Hastings Rasani, Ryan Taylor to name but three all have losing records. But without a shadow of a doubt when they climb into the ring they give 110%, put on a good show, ask questions of these young prospects and make them work for their win.

I know that Johnny gets immense pride from going in and giving a good fight for 4 rounds regardless of the fact that he more often than not gets beat.

I'm not sure who Phil Gill should be fighting in his 14th professional outing, Timothy Bradley maybe? Lamont Peterson?

[kells]

It is sad pro boxer is more about money than talent but b honest guys if ther was as much money in unlicensed as ther is in pro wud u put ur top guys in 50/50 fights from the off or big fights unless u had to?? Or wud u go down the road of making u and ur boxer as much money as u cud b4 u had to step up??

[taffytoon]

Taffy toon you are either talking bollocks or was extremely unlucky , never seen anything like that on an unlicensed show and im at one pretty much 2 or 3 times per month , i do my own shows and i take lads to box away too .

Most Unlicensed shows wouldnt put on a fight like the one mentioned above , i know i wouldnt ....but thats not phills fault , id imagine phill wants tougher fights , to move up the rankings and to one day fight for a title but unfortunately its not the way boxing works .

Everything comes down to finances at the end of the day

Must have been unlucky then as I have no need to talk Bollocks about semi pro or whatever you want to call it. The event was in the Angel hotel in Cardiff a few years back and it was horrific, all it did was make me thank god we have pro boxing in the UK. I beleive that Johnny Greaves, Hastings Rasani and the other good journeymen would beat the semi pros 9 times out of 10.

[Old bones Ian]

Billy, quick couple of questions, do you turn down guys that want to box on one of your shows and have been training at your club, but you think aren't good enough.

and on the shows does age matter when matching the boxers?

i'm just interested in how these shows are run, I think they have a place in sport the same as am's etc. as long as they are run and matched well, then it gives local lads a chance to put on a show for friends and themselves. They do seem to sell well.

[bripez]

Yeah that's all well and good but without these journeymen the sport is nothing, you need those guys to bring the young prospects on

This is the usual line, but I disagree completely.

Lets not be naive here, when we are talking about Journeymen we effectively mean boxers who in many instances are for all intents and purposes paid to lose.

Whenever a journeyman turns it on and gets a few wins guess what - the work dries up.

These boxers need / want to be earning regular money, they therefore give a home boxer a bit of a workout but don't do enough to win (also, need to cover up and not put themselves in danger of getting stopped and a 28 dayer - thereby reducing their ability to earn).

Prospects aren't brought on by these fights - they surely learn more in sparring ?

We have a situation where former England internationals are fed a diet of boxers with massively losing records - this is hardly progress compared to boxing the best amateurs in the country and beyond.

This has come about with the obsession with the "0" - promoters want their boxers to maintain their unbeaten records.

[damianhucker1]

Johnny greaves himself used to box unlicensed , and moved people around on there too , hes stated it on here himself in the past .

Both myself and Billy DO realise that the pros is a higher standard but not all unlicensed is crap , hence why people like us who di it right get annoyed when people try to make it sound like its all turd , ill bet most people who criticise it do so because its what theyve heard from someone else rather than going themselves , some promotors are sharks out to make a quick buck but not all , ill happilly make minimul profit if it means putting on a better show , i also intend on turning pro before the end of the year , just to have a crack at it , ive got lads boxing for me who i know i can turn pro too who will make a good fist of it as a pro , i know Billys got at least one that could too , im not just guessing im basing that on facts , as weve had pro sparring partners for my heavyweight , good pros with close competitive sparring and billys fighter beat mine so i know hes good enough , i know a fight is different to sparring but its a descent yardstick .

Ive criticised fighters on here in the past and fell out with people and have no intention of repeating that so i am in no way going to name who was sparred with nor will i criticise any current pros ability right now .

Ive had promotors ask me why im bothering turning pro when i can make more money in unlicensed , but to me its about boxing not about money , i was never gonna be a pro fighter , im not comfortable with training anything other than beginners so wouldnt be a trainer , its a thankless task at times to train people , but i can sell people , i have fantastic customer services due to my retail management background and im a big boxing fan , so promotion was the way for me but didnt have a big bank balance to immediately turn pro , nor did i have the contacts , unlicensed boxing is slowly changing all that , its always been a route into the pros for me but i know as a promotor there will be some good fighters around for me to sign up as pros on the unlicensed circuit , like it or not its gradually going the way of semi pro , its just how it is , natural progression , wont be long before semi pro is the normal term for unlicensed in my view as more people do it how it should be , there will always be bad eggs but its up to the good guys to not work with them , some of the lads will never in a million years good enough to go pro , but those lads arent going to earn title shots on my shows .

it will all stand me in good stead long term , in a sport i wouldnt be able to be involved in outside the amateur game if i hadnt gone this route , ill hopefully make a descent career out of it with some hard work , none of you have the right to tell me i cant do it , ive been proving people wrong all my life .

Lets bring this thread back up in 5 years and if im not pro or im crap in the pros or gone back to unlicensed then say i told you so .

Wether Billy has any future ambition revolving around the pros i dont know but in the unlicensed scene hes certainly one of the good guys , not ll are , but he is .

[damianhucker1]

Billy, quick couple of questions, do you turn down guys that want to box on one of your shows and have been training at your club, but you think aren't good enough.

and on the shows does age matter when matching the boxers?

i'm just interested in how these shows are run, I think they have a place in sport the same as am's etc. as long as they are run and matched well, then it gives local lads a chance to put on a show for friends and themselves. They do seem to sell well.

For me i dont get the option of having to turn lads down as the gyms here dont want to look bad by putting poor lads in , if the trainer thinks their lad isnt ready even if theyve already matched them then they just tell me and the fights off , it means trusting the trainer but they want me to keep putting their lads on shows so no use to them not being truthful , usually means the home fighters are pretty well schooled which is now becoming known on the circuit so not everyone is always keen to travel down to us unless theyve seen the home fighter box at some point before .

Oldest ive used is a 51 year old , and he kept fighting away getting beat up i just wanted to get him a fight that he was capable of winning to give him a sense of acheivement for the effort hes put in at the gym , unfortunately he still lost though .

[Boxing Pirate]

As I thought not one of my points answered as I am correct.

Damian Hucker is good man and a good promoter of the unlicensed scene, the same goes for Billy Bessey and a number of others, but, they also know there are others out there ruining the goodwork they are trying to do.