Who Wins? Marciano vs Prime Tyson?

Mistachill · Post by **Mistachill** » 18 Aug 2005, 17:26

Before you laugh, consider the following:

* Tyson was bigger, stronger, faster, and had better defense than Marciano ever dreamed of having.

* Marciano never faced anyone that I'm aware of with the hand speed of a prime Tyson. The closest I could think of gave Marciano all kinds of trouble, Ezzard Charles.

A short, slow, short armed fighter with limited defensive skills would be tailor made for a prime Tyson. Mike Tyson the night he KOed Spinks (I think) would've KOed Marciano too.

As great as Marciano's heart was and his ability to absorb a butt whipping, he was not superman and I don't think he'd be able to take Tyson's punching like he did from a 38 year old Walcott for that many rounds.

Feel free to take your shots at me.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 18 Aug 2005, 17:59

i always did say i dont think rocky would beat all the greats(but most of them), and this is one case where i dont think he would have beat tyson. so I actually agree with u but on different reasons. i felt tyson had the perfect style for marciano, and tysons handspeed would probably win him the fight. if they got into a slug out, tysons handspeed will give marciano fits and enable him to get through to marciano. both fighters are dangerous on the inside but i think tyson had a little more power than marciano but not much more. marciano also was a slow starter while tyson was the opposite.

tyson has no chance of intimidating marciano, or making him quit, and they say the way to beat tyson is to not let him bully u. well at tysons peak, even when u stood up to him u couldntr do much. and in this case, i dont think marciano will be able to survive the first couple rounds and its mainly based on tysons short crisp punches are hard to get inside of with counter rights or hooks and marciano didnt use much of a jab.

for marciano to win, he would have to outphysical tyson on the inside, and hammer away at the body and everyhwere else and make tyson repsct his power and back off. and if he could survive a couple rounds and show he can take tysons bombs, he will KO tyson in the later rounds. cause if this fight goes past 5 tysons in deep trouble cause he has not chance of trading with marciano late in the fight or taking marcianos punches.

but, unlike some of the other big time sluggers, they threw slow power punches, but tyson threw fast power punches with just as much power and thats why i think he would have stopped marciano early. marciano had a bad style for him. simple as that.

this time ill be argueing against marciano while sweet scientist will be argueing in favor of marciano. talk about flip flop.

u told me swet scientist u thought marciano would destroy tyson. i want to hear ur reasons.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 18 Aug 2005, 18:11

mistachell, he didnt have that much better of a defense than marciano. a lot of people really underestimate the rocks defense.

marciano got himself low into a crouch, and blocked the body shots with his short stubby arms and kind of crossed his arms to block his face, and he could fight in all different stlyes boobing and weaving, crouch, and he would adapt to w.e fit. he was hard to hit with a flush punch and he was tougher to hit with a jab than expected.
just thought i let u know that.

on a side note, on reasons i disagree about why tyson would beat marciano:

and i will say this, tyson was bigger, stronger(not by much), faster, a little more powerful, and did have a better defense,

but marciano was tougher, more heart, better chin, more stamina

u say marciano never faced anyone like tyson. ill say this, miek tyson never faced anyone who hit as hard as rocky marciano or was as tough and aggresive and fearless.

Mistachill · Post by **Mistachill** » 18 Aug 2005, 18:16

I agree, if the fight go into the mid-late rounds, my money would be on Marciano. Just don't see with his size, tendency to get cut, etc., how he'd be able to survive past the first few rounds.

Also consider Tyson was way more atheletic than anyone Marciano ever faced. When you watch tape of a young Mike Tyson and some of the moves he made in the ring delivering punches, Marciano would have no answer for that.

Marciano's biggest asset was his heart, but he wouldn't be around long enough for that to come into play.

Mistachill · Post by **Mistachill** » 18 Aug 2005, 18:20

Regarding his chin (though he never stayed down) Marciano had been put on his butt by a few fighters including a 42 year old light heavyweight.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:mistachell, he didnt have that much better of a defense than marciano. a lot of people really underestimate the rocks defense.

marciano got himself low into a crouch, and blocked the body shots with his short stubby arms and kind of crossed his arms to block his face, and he could fight in all different stlyes boobing and weaving, crouch, and he would adapt to w.e fit. he was hard to hit with a flush punch and he was tougher to hit with a jab than expected.
just thought i let u know that.

on a side note, on reasons i disagree about why tyson would beat marciano:

and i will say this, tyson was bigger, stronger(not by much), faster, a little more powerful, and did have a better defense,

but marciano was tougher, more heart, better chin, more stamina

u say marciano never faced anyone like tyson. ill say this, miek tyson never faced anyone who hit as hard as rocky marciano or was as tough and aggresive and fearless.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 18 Aug 2005, 18:35

marciano was knocked down by the man with the most knockouts of all time and one of the best fiishers of all time light-H king archie moore who wasnt that far past his prime when he faced marciano, and also weighed in just as much as marciano.

and marciano was also decked by a left hook from walcott- the same punch that knocked ezzard charles out cold a year earlier.

id say moore and walcott have more power than tucker, bonecrusher, and bruno.

ur bringing up the wrong reasons why he would beat marciano.

not because of size, cause marciano had enough sstrentgh at 185 to deal with the 220 and 230 lbs. it was tysons style of fighting that would make marciano lose. i think marciano would beat some fighters that tyson would lose to. and marciano was not just a heart guy, he had physical gifts. one was a devastaing overhand right and marciano is amongst one of the hardest hitters in history and also is probably the toughest in history. id say his greatest asset was his strentgh, followed by his overhand right and toughness.

both tyson and rock excellent body punchers.

The Scranton Assassin · Post by **The Scranton Assassin** » 18 Aug 2005, 18:59

This is a good discussion. I realy like the fact that noone is totaly tareing either of the fighters completly down because the argument culd easily flow from on man to the next. My opinion however is that even a prime Tyson coming rushing in in the first few rounds with those sickly fast hands would be walking right into a brick wall. And even early on if Tyson got hit with one of those insanely powerful punches he would end up right on his ass. However I could easily see The Rock geting dropped early too. So in the early on Tyson would have more of a chance but not much more and later rounds forget about it . Marciano would massacre Iron Mike. I still think that Rocky pound for pound is the hardest puncher ever and one of the top 5 hardest one hit punchers in history and i just don't think tyson could deal with that in any round.

Mistachill · Post by **Mistachill** » 18 Aug 2005, 19:37

But if you really look hard at Marciano's record, he fought only a handful of fighters over 200 lbs. So I think its debateable whether he could handle great "big" heavyweights. So I do think size would be an issue against Marciano.

And with prime Tyson's athletic ability, I think Marciano would have a really hard time catching him clean (at least early in the fight) with many damaging punches. And he certainly wouldn't be able to get away from Tyson's punches, so he'd have to depend on just absorbing them. We all know Marciano had a great chin but he's not superman.

Obviously, Marciano was able to overcome his physical liabilities in the 50s but I don't think he'd have that luxury against the bigger heavyweights who came after his era.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:marciano was knocked down by the man with the most knockouts of all time and one of the best fiishers of all time light-H king archie moore who wasnt that far past his prime when he faced marciano, and also weighed in just as much as marciano.

and marciano was also decked by a left hook from walcott- the same punch that knocked ezzard charles out cold a year earlier.

id say moore and walcott have more power than tucker, bonecrusher, and bruno.

ur bringing up the wrong reasons why he would beat marciano.

not because of size, cause marciano had enough sstrentgh at 185 to deal with the 220 and 230 lbs. it was tysons style of fighting that would make marciano lose. i think marciano would beat some fighters that tyson would lose to. and marciano was not just a heart guy, he had physical gifts. one was a devastaing overhand right and marciano is amongst one of the hardest hitters in history and also is probably the toughest in history. id say his greatest asset was his strentgh, followed by his overhand right and toughness.

both tyson and rock excellent body punchers.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 18 Aug 2005, 20:09

i just want to let u know marciano has the strentgh and power to deal with these modern heavyweights. every big guy he faced 6'1 + and 225 + he knocked out very quickly. the weight advantage didnt mean that much cause he had the power to still knock them out not to mention the strentgh. marciano's power and strentgh, chin, were reasons why whe could deal with biger heavyweights unlike some other 185 heavyweights.

joe louis may have been old, but he was still better than most contenders and he outweighed rocky by 33 lbs and 3" and rocky out physicaled him and backed louis up the whole night and eventually knocked him out. i could go into a list of all the big guys he fought but ive done that before.

marciano also wasnt naturally 185 lb. he was over 200 lb, he just trained so hard and trimmed himself down to that and he was still all muscle. and if u look at him, hes very big boned and filled out. he has the strentgh of heavyweights over 200 lbs. weight means not that much when u get to heavyweights and in marcianos case, a 250 lb heavyweight wont be able to take his suzie Q or his body punching. rocky would tear up the bigger guys and they wouldnt be able to get marciano off them.

ur one of those people falsely mistaken that guys like dempsey, and marciano couldnt deal with the bigger guys today. hell the bigger guys today are slow, flabby, out of shape and could not last at the work rate of a marciano or dempsey. so if u think marciano couldnt beat a vitali K cause of size, ur mistaken.

i would like to hear barrys or anothers view on marciano vs the bigger hevayweights. to anyone on size isnt as big a deal. i hate to bring size into this, but its a big issue and it slows down debates when someone says " o he cant beat him, he way too small."

and in another topic, if marciano were to fight today using the supplements, weight training, and technology, he would probably fight at heavyweight but be 200 lb instead of 185 cause im guessing hell add on more muscle. but another topic.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 18 Aug 2005, 20:17

i think mike tyson would beat rocky marciano, but not based on size. u can argue all u want, but size will never be a reason in this case cause i could say marciano used the size advatantage to his favor by getting low and getting inside.

wlvrne · Post by **wlvrne** » 18 Aug 2005, 20:42

This would be one helluva fight whichever way it went. Could Tyson withstand getting hit harder than he's ever been by Rocky's right hand?
And with Rocky crouching low and inside, would he be able to deal with Mike's devastating upper-cuts?
And, we all know that Rocky fought like hell for all his rounds. Would Tyson be able to do the same. Rocky would be right in there with him banging & trading shot for shot.
I think in this fight, it would come down to whoever wanted it more.

kingpawn · Post by **kingpawn** » 18 Aug 2005, 21:43

I'd give Marciano a chance. The thing that bothers me, though, about this matchup is Marciano's susceptibility to cuts. Tyson's going to hit him and he's going to hit him hard, more than Marciano's going to score with his own hard punches. Tyson was much faster.

So the questions are: (A) Can Marciano take it long enough to get this fight to the middle rounds? And (B) will Marciano have any of his face left by that time?

I think Tyson wins by a relatively early stoppage.

kingpawn · Post by **kingpawn** » 18 Aug 2005, 21:45

By the way, way to go Mistachill for getting this thread into the que. I thought maybe it'd start some fireworks, but so far a good reasonable discussion.

Mistachill · Post by **Mistachill** » 19 Aug 2005, 01:23

One thing I don't do is try to factor in how a fighter would improve if he had the benefit of today's technology, weight training, etc. Its hard enough comparing fighters from different eras as it is.

I view it as simply this, pull Marciano out of the 50s "as is", drop him in the heavyweight division in 1988-89, would he beat Prime Mike Tyson?

The reason I feel very strongly that you have to consider size is this: we always talk about fighters carrying their punch with them into heavier weight divisions, i.e. "Would Duran KO people at the same rate as a welterweight as he did as a lightweight?" Essentially, Marciano would be a cruiserweight today. Would his punch have the same affect as a heavyweight as it did as a cruiserweight? And remember, a lot of his opponents in the 50s were either in the cruiserweight weight range or not far from it. And not that he was ever the puncher that Marciano was, but I bet Holyfields KO % as a heavyweight is lower than it was as a cruiserweight.

Prime Tyson, who was considered a small heavyweight himself, would've been the third heaviest fighter Marciano ever faced. And certainly none of the bigger fighters Marciano faced had anywhere near the hand speed and athletic ability that Prime Tyson possessed. Size wouldn't have been the ONLY factor that would give Tyson the edge over Marciano, but I do believe it would be one of them.

And I've never seen anyone in the few Marciano fights I've watched ever bum rush him the way Tyson would've. He was kinda a big version of Julio Cesar Chavez. Like to slow the pace down, make it a very methodical fight, willing to take a few punches to deliver his, break you down slowly over the course of several rounds before taking you out for good. I just don't think he'd be able to make that fight plan materialize against Prime Tyson.

Marciano had the better career and should be ranked as the better fighter, but matched up against each other, I just don't see a realistic scenario where he beats a Prime Tyson.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 19 Aug 2005, 01:34

tyson was not the third biggest heavyweight marciano faced.

Jerry Jackson over 6' 254 lbs Marciano by KO 1 overhand right

Patrick Connely 6'5 213 lbs Marciano KO 1 overhand right

Johnny Skorrr 6'5 221 lb Marciano TKO 6 skorr down 3 times

Big Bill Wilson 6'3 230 lb Marciano TKO 1 Cuts

Joe Louis 6'2 214 lbs Marciano KO 8 neearly killed louis .

so u see how he did against the big heavyweights. tyson was only
5'10 3/4 " so even though connely and lous were only 213 and 214 lbs, they were 6'5 and 6'2 so i consider them a little bigger.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 19 Aug 2005, 05:37

I go for Marciano in this. Toe to toe Tyson would find himself up against someone willing to take anything and still comeback and this would intimidate Tyson who basically never liked fighting people that fought back. The early rounds would be the worst for Rocky and he may well be dropped once or twice but I think he'd get up and keep going, grind Tyson down and by about the 8th or 9th Tyson would be subdued and looking for a way out. Rocky by ko in about 12 or 13 rounds.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 19 Aug 2005, 06:37

I see Tyson blowing him out early. But then that's the way it is with Tyson. I thoguht the same about Holyfield, i.e. 'How can a blown up 185 lb guy take on Tyson?'

It might be that Rocky is just destroyed very early by Mike, and if I was betting that's what I'd go for. BUT if not then after round 3 Rocky would start to fight harder and harder. Tyson would do everything to try and finish it and if he couldn't then his confidence would start to dissipate.

I think Tyson wins but Marciano has a chance. If Rocky can do what Holyfield did then he can pull it out.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 19 Aug 2005, 08:13

Rocky was a slow starter and would possibly be floored but I still don't see Tyson koing him. I think Rocky would weather the early storm and start getting into the fight by about the 3rd and grind Tyson down.
I thinkTyson would possibly be intimidated by Rocky... he certainly would be frustrated and angered by Rockys rough house tactics and this could provoke Tyson to fallapart too. This fight could see Rocky winning on a disqualification.

Mistachill · Post by **Mistachill** » 19 Aug 2005, 08:23

I was going by weight, but you make a good point considering height and weight.

Now tell me which of those fights had anywhere near Tyson's talent? And we all know Louis (who was 36-37 years old!) was only a shell of himself when Marciano got to him - and even HE gave Marciano some trouble before getting blown up.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:tyson was not the third biggest heavyweight marciano faced.

Jerry Jackson over 6' 254 lbs Marciano by KO 1 overhand right

Patrick Connely 6'5 213 lbs Marciano KO 1 overhand right

Johnny Skorrr 6'5 221 lb Marciano TKO 6 skorr down 3 times

Big Bill Wilson 6'3 230 lb Marciano TKO 1 Cuts

Joe Louis 6'2 214 lbs Marciano KO 8 neearly killed louis .

so u see how he did against the big heavyweights. tyson was only
5'10 3/4 " so even though connely and lous were only 213 and 214 lbs, they were 6'5 and 6'2 so i consider them a little bigger.

Mistachill · Post by **Mistachill** » 19 Aug 2005, 08:29

But remember, Holyfield got to Tyson 6 years later than they should've met (totally Tyson's fault). I'm not sure Holyfield beats Tyson if they met when they should've. Holyfield would've given him his toughest fight by far, but not sure he would win.

But after spending 3 years in jail (his skills were already declining before prison after Kevin Rooney was fired) and fighting Don King hand picked bums after his prison release, in hindsight Tyson lost a lot by the time Holyfield got to him.

Ezzard wrote:I see Tyson blowing him out early. But then that's the way it is with Tyson. I thoguht the same about Holyfield, i.e. 'How can a blown up 185 lb guy take on Tyson?'

It might be that Rocky is just destroyed very early by Mike, and if I was betting that's what I'd go for. BUT if not then after round 3 Rocky would start to fight harder and harder. Tyson would do everything to try and finish it and if he couldn't then his confidence would start to dissipate.

I think Tyson wins but Marciano has a chance. If Rocky can do what Holyfield did then he can pull it out.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 19 Aug 2005, 08:42

Mistachill wrote:But remember, Holyfield got to Tyson 6 years later than they should've met (totally Tyson's fault). I'm not sure Holyfield beats Tyson if they met when they should've. Holyfield would've given him his toughest fight by far, but not sure he would win.

But after spending 3 years in jail (his skills were already declining before prison after Kevin Rooney was fired) and fighting Don King hand picked bums after his prison release, in hindsight Tyson lost a lot by the time Holyfield got to him.

Ezzard wrote:I see Tyson blowing him out early. But then that's the way it is with Tyson. I thoguht the same about Holyfield, i.e. 'How can a blown up 185 lb guy take on Tyson?'

It might be that Rocky is just destroyed very early by Mike, and if I was betting that's what I'd go for. BUT if not then after round 3 Rocky would start to fight harder and harder. Tyson would do everything to try and finish it and if he couldn't then his confidence would start to dissipate.

I think Tyson wins but Marciano has a chance. If Rocky can do what Holyfield did then he can pull it out.

But Tyson met a slower, older much more ringworn Holifield than the man he would have met in 1990 or earlier. Out of the two it was Tyson who was closest to his paek yet he still didn't have enough to beat Holifield.
Holifield still would have beaten Tyson had they met in the 80s... he had too many tools and mostly too much heart for Tyson.
I see a simular scenerio if Tyson met Rocky...

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 19 Aug 2005, 08:50

Mistachill wrote:But remember, Holyfield got to Tyson 6 years later than they should've met (totally Tyson's fault). I'm not sure Holyfield beats Tyson if they met when they should've. Holyfield would've given him his toughest fight by far, but not sure he would win.

But after spending 3 years in jail (his skills were already declining before prison after Kevin Rooney was fired) and fighting Don King hand picked bums after his prison release, in hindsight Tyson lost a lot by the time Holyfield got to him.

Ezzard wrote:I see Tyson blowing him out early. But then that's the way it is with Tyson. I thoguht the same about Holyfield, i.e. 'How can a blown up 185 lb guy take on Tyson?'

It might be that Rocky is just destroyed very early by Mike, and if I was betting that's what I'd go for. BUT if not then after round 3 Rocky would start to fight harder and harder. Tyson would do everything to try and finish it and if he couldn't then his confidence would start to dissipate.

I think Tyson wins but Marciano has a chance. If Rocky can do what Holyfield did then he can pull it out.

I don't want to start a whole "what is a fighters prime" debate again as that has been covered on the Tyson-Holmes thread.

As I see it Tyson didn't lose to Holyfield because a lack of skill or because of physical deterioration. He lost to Holyfield because Holy wasn't scared of him, because Tyson was mentally weak and because Tyson could not overcome adversity in the ring. These factors hold true no matter what version of Tyson you want to bring into the ring.

When you think about the 2 Holyfield fights then Holyfield was more ring worn, naturally smaller and had nothing to prove. Tyson was the one 'destined' for greatness. He might have been a little rusty but he'd just had a long break from fighting. I take your point on the head movement not being there etc... But Holyfield beat him at his own game. Up until then it was considered to be suicide to meet Tyson on the inside and attempt to outmuscle him. Even with the skills fading Tyson ought to have won the fights.

kingpawn · Post by **kingpawn** » 19 Aug 2005, 09:01

Brockton ... I don't think you can effectively argue how great Marciano was against big fighters without talking about how good most of those big fighters were. I mean, Walcott or Charles would have beat the hell out of Big Bill Wilson, too. Or Jerry Jackson. Or Johnny Skorr. Or Patrick Connelly.

Even the great Joe Louis is a somewhat weak argument as far as the point you're trying to make. Bigger, yes, but he was nowhere near the fighter he was 10 years before.

Marciano was a great, great fighter. Don't get me wrong. But I agree with Mistachill that the "as is" version is all we really have to go by. And that version, if he had come along 20 years later, would NOT have gone undefeated. Too many bigger, stronger fighters with just as good a skills as the 50s version fighters Marciano faced. Somebody would have taken care of him.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 19 Aug 2005, 09:06

Ezzard wrote:
Mistachill wrote:But remember, Holyfield got to Tyson 6 years later than they should've met (totally Tyson's fault). I'm not sure Holyfield beats Tyson if they met when they should've. Holyfield would've given him his toughest fight by far, but not sure he would win.

But after spending 3 years in jail (his skills were already declining before prison after Kevin Rooney was fired) and fighting Don King hand picked bums after his prison release, in hindsight Tyson lost a lot by the time Holyfield got to him.

Ezzard wrote:I see Tyson blowing him out early. But then that's the way it is with Tyson. I thoguht the same about Holyfield, i.e. 'How can a blown up 185 lb guy take on Tyson?'

It might be that Rocky is just destroyed very early by Mike, and if I was betting that's what I'd go for. BUT if not then after round 3 Rocky would start to fight harder and harder. Tyson would do everything to try and finish it and if he couldn't then his confidence would start to dissipate.

I think Tyson wins but Marciano has a chance. If Rocky can do what Holyfield did then he can pull it out.
I don't want to start a whole "what is a fighters prime" debate again as that has been covered on the Tyson-Holmes thread.

As I see it Tyson didn't lose to Holyfield because a lack of skill or because of physical deterioration. He lost to Holyfield because Holy wasn't scared of him, because Tyson was mentally weak and because Tyson could not overcome adversity in the ring. These factors hold true no matter what version of Tyson you want to bring into the ring.

When you think about the 2 Holyfield fights then Holyfield was more ring worn, naturally smaller and had nothing to prove. Tyson was the one 'destined' for greatness. He might have been a little rusty but he'd just had a long break from fighting. I take your point on the head movement not being there etc... But Holyfield beat him at his own game. Up until then it was considered to be suicide to meet Tyson on the inside and attempt to outmuscle him. Even with the skills fading Tyson ought to have won the fights.

Yeah that right, Tyson had the physical tools but not the mental tools and its the mental side that always let Tyson down when it came to the cruntch.
If you look through boxing history you will often see fighters losing to people they physically should have beaten but it was the mental and spiritual side of the ither fighter which proved the difference.
Rocky would just be too mentally tough for tyson... and he was no physical weed either and would probably match or surpass Tyson in brute strength... but in the heart and mind area Tyson would find himself well beaten.

Sherlock · Post by **Sherlock** » 19 Aug 2005, 10:55

I see this as a 50-50 scenario. Marciano never fought anyone with the speed and power of Tyson, and Tyson wilts quickly when faced with a guy who won't back down. I see either a Tyson blowout within 4 rounds or a Marciano shellacking, battering Tyson through the later rounds and wins an empthatic late TKO.

I have to go with the first scenario though, mainly because I am a Tyson fan

, though the latter is more likely in my opinion.

Who Wins? Marciano vs Prime Tyson?

Who Wins? Marciano vs Prime Tyson?

marciano/tyson