Kenny Norton VS...

[Goodnight, Irene]

One of the best contenders never to have made lineal champion, for sure (& they screwed him out of that distinction in '76, at that).

Here he's in against...

Max Baer

Joe Walcott

Ingemar Johansson

Larry Holmes (Norton in his prime, and Holmes uninjured)

Evander Holyfield

George Foreman (1990's, say 91 version)

Wlad & Vitali Klitschko

[dempseyfire]

Beats Johansson, Holyfield, 90s Foreman, and both Klitschkos, although Vitali-Norton is 50/50 for me.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Beats Johansson, Holyfield, 90s Foreman, and both Klitschkos, although Vitali-Norton is 50/50 for me.

Holmes and Walcott on points, Baer for the big KO, you think?

[AngryGoon38]

One of the best contenders never to have made lineal champion, for sure (& they screwed him out of that distinction in '76, at that).

Here he's in against...

Max Baer

Joe Walcott

Ingemar Johansson

Larry Holmes (Norton in his prime, and Holmes uninjured)

Evander Holyfield

George Foreman (1990's, say 91 version)

Wlad & Vitali Klitschko

Ud over Baer
Ud over Walcott
Tko in 9 over Ingo
Holmes wins by decision
Holyfield wins by tko in round 8
Foreman wins by 11th rd Ko
Wlad ko's em in 5
Vitali Tko's em in 9

[Goodnight, Irene]

Do you see a competitive battle against Foreman?

[AngryGoon38]

Do you see a competitive battle against Foreman?

Actually yeah. I think Foreman has the leverage and punch angles even in his 40's to confound and befuddle and ultimately throw off Norton,who is quite flawed against decisvely bigger men with good boxing fundementals,good power,and strong stiff jabs all of which even a 40 something Foreman continued to Possess.

[dempseyfire]

Beats Johansson, Holyfield, 90s Foreman, and both Klitschkos, although Vitali-Norton is 50/50 for me.

Holmes and Walcott on points, Baer for the big KO, you think?

Yes.

[loaded_gloves]

Norton whacks Baer and catches up to Walcott, decisions Larry Holmes in an action fight, outpointed by Holyfield in an action fight, probably succumbs to Foreman's power at some point, and is simply way too much of everything for both Klitschko brothers.

[loaded_gloves]

Vitali Tko's em in 9

So you hold Norton at a similar level to Chris Arreola and Juan Carlos Gomez?

Vitali TKOs Ken Norton in 9 but couldn't down or KO a fat, 40 year old fragile-even-in-his-prime Shannon Briggs?

I don't buy into this Vitali Klitscho power at all. There is simply no evidence to support it.

[crusader]

Vitali Tko's em in 9

So you hold Norton at a similar level to Chris Arreola and Juan Carlos Gomez?

Vitali TKOs Ken Norton in 9 but couldn't down or KO a fat, 40 year old fragile-even-in-his-prime Shannon Briggs?

I don't buy into this Vitali Klitscho power at all. There is simply no evidence to support it.

Vitali's power is overrated by the general boxing community, but underrated by the subsection providing a countervailing response to this tendency.

I'd argue that Vitali has power (he has stopped almost all of his opponents, many of whom lauded the force of his blows) but not of the one punch variety. I'd also argue that he punched harder prior to his 4 year hiatus than he does now; he stopped opponents earlier and hurt them more frequently.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Vitali Tko's em in 9

So you hold Norton at a similar level to Chris Arreola and Juan Carlos Gomez?

Vitali TKOs Ken Norton in 9 but couldn't down or KO a fat, 40 year old fragile-even-in-his-prime Shannon Briggs?

I don't buy into this Vitali Klitscho power at all. There is simply no evidence to support it.

Not only is the evidence lacking, the Briggs fight PROVED the guy cant bust a grape.

[loaded_gloves]

I'd argue that Vitali has power (he has stopped almost all of his opponents, many of whom lauded the force of his blows) but not of the one punch variety. I'd also argue that he punched harder prior to his 4 year hiatus than he does now; he stopped opponents earlier and hurt them more frequently.

Vitali couldn't put down Obed Sullivan, Chris Byrd, Vaughn Bean or Timo Hoffman. Christ, Ibeabuchi and Tua splattered Byrd and Sullivan respectively. Holyfield put Bean down for longer than a 10 count. Vitali was gifted a fake stoppage over Ross Purritty, he took 10 rds to down an ancient Larry Donald and his best, meatiest blows didn't deck an old, fat Lennox Lewis, or an old fat chinny Corrie Sanders.

The man is simply not a puncher. He has a massive KO ratio, but so does Brian Nielsen.

As GI said, the Shannon Briggs performance underlined the fact Vitali is simply not a puncher. Lennox Lewis was bouncing Shannon off the floor a decade earlier. Jameel McCline had him down too.

How in God's name would he KO Ken Norton? He didn't KO Obed Sullivan or Vaughn Bean at his 'peak'!

[crusader]

I'd argue that Vitali has power (he has stopped almost all of his opponents, many of whom lauded the force of his blows) but not of the one punch variety. I'd also argue that he punched harder prior to his 4 year hiatus than he does now; he stopped opponents earlier and hurt them more frequently.

Vitali couldn't put down Obed Sullivan, Chris Byrd, Vaughn Bean or Timo Hoffman. Christ, Ibeabuchi and Tua splattered Byrd and Sullivan respectively. Holyfield put Bean down for longer than a 10 count. Vitali was gifted a fake stoppage over Ross Purritty, he took 10 rds to down an ancient Larry Donald and his best, meatiest blows didn't deck an old, fat Lennox Lewis, or an old fat chinny Corrie Sanders.

The man is simply not a puncher. He has a massive KO ratio, but so does Brian Nielsen.

As GI said, the Shannon Briggs performance underlined the fact Vitali is simply not a puncher. Lennox Lewis was bouncing Shannon off the floor a decade earlier. Jameel McCline had him down too.

How in God's name would he KO Ken Norton? He didn't KO Obed Sullivan or Vaughn Bean at his 'peak'!

I consider the term 'puncher' to be a descriptor for boxers who possess a level of power which can alter the course of a bout at any given moment. Vitali isn’t capable of this, but he does possess attritional power.

Attrional power can be displayed in many ways, not just by scoring knockdowns. In almost all of his bouts-- including several of the ones listed above-- Vitali has either hurt his opponent or forced them into survival mode because they were afraid to get hit. If this didn't require some degree of dig, most good fighters would have records filled with stoppages, even in the absence of above-average power.

Ibeabuchi, Tua, and Lewis 'flattened' opponents who went several rounds with Vitali, but those are tenuous comparisons. All three fighters were very hard punchers, so the comparative results you mention hardly suggest that Vitali doesn't throw hurtful punches. In support of Vitali's power, comparative results also reveal that he stopped Herbie Hide in 1 (it took Bowe several rounds before Hide finally stayed down); Orlin Norris in 1 (Golota had been unable stop or drop Norris months earlier ); and Levi Billups in 2 (hard punching Derrick Jefferson couldn't stop him over 10 rounds). I don't read too much into the A vs B vs C comparisons anyway, especially if the focus is bout duration. Darroll Wilson stopped Briggs in one round, so does he punch significantly harder than Lewis? No.

[AngryGoon38]

Vitali Tko's em in 9

So you hold Norton at a similar level to Chris Arreola and Juan Carlos Gomez?

Vitali TKOs Ken Norton in 9 but couldn't down or KO a fat, 40 year old fragile-even-in-his-prime Shannon Briggs?

I don't buy into this Vitali Klitscho power at all. There is simply no evidence to support it.

Yeah,resiliance wise,Norton could really get overwhelmed,especially by certain bigman styles.

He could'nt handle big punches to the head and face and Vitali could and likely Would find the mark. He'd likely wear down and weaken Norton. Ken would'nt find the range to ko Vitali but he'd try of course,alot,and he'd wear himself down and could'nt box very well at all against such a huge menace of presence that Vitali is. V. Klischko would simply win with his size and leverage and resiliance and Norton simply could'nt win on the battle of attrition it'd mostly come down to and he'd eat too many jabs and get worn out by Vitali's bigman wearem out defense tactics. Big Strong Norton,as game as he could be, would get too weak after awhile against the Freak of nature Ukranian Behemoth. Ultimately a Plain and simple common sense analysis.
:geek2:

[Goodnight, Irene]

Norton outworks Vitali, who cannot hurt him.

[loaded_gloves]

In support of Vitali's power, comparative results also reveal that he stopped Herbie Hide in 1 (it took Bowe several rounds before Hide finally stayed down); Orlin Norris in 1 (Golota had been unable stop or drop Norris months earlier ); and Levi Billups in 2 (hard punching Derrick Jefferson couldn't stop him over 10 rounds). I don't read too much into the A vs B vs C comparisons anyway, especially if the focus is bout duration. Darroll Wilson stopped Briggs in one round, so does he punch significantly harder than Lewis? No.

Not to be a pedant mate, but Vitali stopped Hide in 2 and Darroll Wilson stopped Briggs in 3. Vitali threw more punches in the first 2 rds vs Hide than Bowe even bothered to try in the same time frame. It should be noted Bowe was fighting an undefeated Hide, whilst Vitali was fighting a Hide who had been brutalised by Bowe and didn't want to take that sort of beating ever again. Orlin Norris was at the end of the road and simply did not come to win, evidenced by his performance and allowing himself to get counted out whilst complaining to the ref. Levi Billups is simply too erratic to include, even in his day he could go 10 rds with Lennox Lewis then get whacked in 2 by Jeremy Williams.

Obviously Vitali is a big strong man and his punches hurt, but he is obviously no puncher by any stretch of the imagination. The evidence is right there on video, and his failure to budge old men who had been chinny in the 90s and were facing Vitali as fat shells of their former selves. He just can't KO them.

[loaded_gloves]

He could'nt handle big punches to the head and face and Vitali could and likely Would find the mark. He'd likely wear down and weaken Norton. Ken would'nt find the range to ko Vitali but he'd try of course,alot,and he'd wear himself down and could'nt box very well at all against such a huge menace of presence that Vitali is. V. Klischko would simply win with his size and leverage and resiliance and Norton simply could'nt win on the battle of attrition it'd mostly come down to and he'd eat too many jabs and get worn out by Vitali's bigman wearem out defense tactics. Big Strong Norton,as game as he could be, would get too weak after awhile against the Freak of nature Ukranian Behemoth. Ultimately a Plain and simple common sense analysis.
:geek2:

Ken Norton would lose a battle of attrition to Vitali Klitschko?

Norton had severe battles of attrition over 12 and 15 rds, on his feet, and was always super strong at the end, even at 35 vs a 28 year old Larry Holmes!

Vitali Klitschko was in a battle of attrition with Lennox Lewis and was exhausted after 6 rds, staggering back to his corner in a bloody daze. Fancy him moving that massive frame over 15 fast paced rds?

I certainly don't!

[crusader]

In support of Vitali's power, comparative results also reveal that he stopped Herbie Hide in 1 (it took Bowe several rounds before Hide finally stayed down); Orlin Norris in 1 (Golota had been unable stop or drop Norris months earlier ); and Levi Billups in 2 (hard punching Derrick Jefferson couldn't stop him over 10 rounds). I don't read too much into the A vs B vs C comparisons anyway, especially if the focus is bout duration. Darroll Wilson stopped Briggs in one round, so does he punch significantly harder than Lewis? No.

Not to be a pedant mate, but Vitali stopped Hide in 2 and Darroll Wilson stopped Briggs in 3. Vitali threw more punches in the first 2 rds vs Hide than Bowe even bothered to try in the same time frame. It should be noted Bowe was fighting an undefeated Hide, whilst Vitali was fighting a Hide who had been brutalised by Bowe and didn't want to take that sort of beating ever again. Orlin Norris was at the end of the road and simply did not come to win, evidenced by his performance and allowing himself to get counted out whilst complaining to the ref. Levi Billups is simply too erratic to include, even in his day he could go 10 rds with Lennox Lewis then get whacked in 2 by Jeremy Williams.

Obviously Vitali is a big strong man and his punches hurt, but he is obviously no puncher by any stretch of the imagination. The evidence is right there on video, and his failure to budge old men who had been chinny in the 90s and were facing Vitali as fat shells of their former selves. He just can't KO them.

Exactly. He has hurtful punches which grind most opponents down. That is a form of power, just not the type generally associated with 'punchers' or fighters revered for their power .

[AngryGoon38]

He could'nt handle big punches to the head and face and Vitali could and likely Would find the mark. He'd likely wear down and weaken Norton. Ken would'nt find the range to ko Vitali but he'd try of course,alot,and he'd wear himself down and could'nt box very well at all against such a huge menace of presence that Vitali is. V. Klischko would simply win with his size and leverage and resiliance and Norton simply could'nt win on the battle of attrition it'd mostly come down to and he'd eat too many jabs and get worn out by Vitali's bigman wearem out defense tactics. Big Strong Norton,as game as he could be, would get too weak after awhile against the Freak of nature Ukranian Behemoth. Ultimately a Plain and simple common sense analysis.
:geek2:

Ken Norton would lose a battle of attrition to Vitali Klitschko?

Norton had severe battles of attrition over 12 and 15 rds, on his feet, and was always super strong at the end, even at 35 vs a 28 year old Larry Holmes!

Vitali Klitschko was in a battle of attrition with Lennox Lewis and was exhausted after 6 rds, staggering back to his corner in a bloody daze. Fancy him moving that massive frame over 15 fast paced rds?

I certainly don't!

Nah man he would,believe me. For the millionth time,styles make fights and Vitali's style and size is absolutely Horrible for Kenny. The Holmes of 82 would dust the best version of Norton in 8 or so and thats taking a safety first boxer approach notoriosly common for Holmes. 82 Cooney dusts Prime Norton in 3 imo. Vitali will be too tall and reachy to reach. Just a terrible style match. Lennox was still a 6-5 behemoth with absolute thunder in the gloves. Similiar level boxing skills as Norton but with legitimately more size and heavier hands. Norton would be a gamer,obviously,but simply overwhelmed by the size,strength,accumulation and unique overall bigman endurance Vitali Possesses. Norton would get punched out and then punchy and then discouraged and then broken down and battered at the end,likely around 8-10 or so rounds.

[Goodnight, Irene]

He could'nt handle big punches to the head and face and Vitali could and likely Would find the mark. He'd likely wear down and weaken Norton. Ken would'nt find the range to ko Vitali but he'd try of course,alot,and he'd wear himself down and could'nt box very well at all against such a huge menace of presence that Vitali is. V. Klischko would simply win with his size and leverage and resiliance and Norton simply could'nt win on the battle of attrition it'd mostly come down to and he'd eat too many jabs and get worn out by Vitali's bigman wearem out defense tactics. Big Strong Norton,as game as he could be, would get too weak after awhile against the Freak of nature Ukranian Behemoth. Ultimately a Plain and simple common sense analysis.
:geek2:

Ken Norton would lose a battle of attrition to Vitali Klitschko?

Norton had severe battles of attrition over 12 and 15 rds, on his feet, and was always super strong at the end, even at 35 vs a 28 year old Larry Holmes!

Vitali Klitschko was in a battle of attrition with Lennox Lewis and was exhausted after 6 rds, staggering back to his corner in a bloody daze. Fancy him moving that massive frame over 15 fast paced rds?

I certainly don't!

Nah man he would,believe me. For the millionth time,styles make fights and Vitali's style and size is absolutely Horrible for Kenny. The Holmes of 82 would dust the best version of Norton in 8 or so and thats taking a safety first boxer approach notoriosly common for Holmes. 82 Cooney dusts Prime Norton in 3 imo. Vitali will be too tall and reachy to reach. Just a terrible style match. Lennox was still a 6-5 behemoth with absolute thunder in the gloves. Similiar level boxing skills as Norton but with legitimately more size and heavier hands. Norton would be a gamer,obviously,but simply overwhelmed by the size,strength,accumulation and unique overall bigman endurance Vitali Possesses. Norton would get punched out and then punchy and then discouraged and then broken down and battered at the end,likely around 8-10 or so rounds.

No way in fucken HELL does ANY version of Holmes KO Norton.

[loaded_gloves]

I stopped reading when he wrote Holmes would KO the best Norton.

Christ, a 28 year old prime Holmes couldn't KO a 35 year old Norton.

Pure fantasy. Ridiculous.

As for grinding down a man with the gameness, skill, brute strength and peak physical fitness of Ken Norton - laughable. It takes Vitali 10, 11 rds to grind down fat slobs who are in no physical condition. Sometimes he can't grind them down, even when they are 40 and obese and shot.

How can he wear down KEN NORTON? How?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

He can't and I'll go a step further. His one-two offense wouldn't be effective against Kenny's defense. Vitali doesn't use a hook, uppercut or body shots. Norton would stifle much of his offense, jab him in the chest and land his overhand right. Klitschko definitely isn't stopping him, he wouldn't even hurt him. His only chance to win in my view would be to capitalize on judges who think that missing more punches than your opponent throws is effective aggression.

It's sad when getting stopped by Foreman & Shavers makes a guy chinny and susceptible to anyone who people perceive as a puncher. Norton's chin was just fine and he would laugh at big bro's arm punching.

[Bobby A.]

About 20 years ago, Eddie Futch was asked how Norton would do against Tyson, Ruddock and Foreman(older version) and he responded "Not well".

[loaded_gloves]

Right, and it's not like there was any animosity between Futch and Norton was there

Think maybe Futch might of had a little bitterness, a bit of an agenda against Norton?

Norton was a living nightmare for far more dynamic, versatile outside boxers without major one shot power than Klitscho, i.e. Ali, Holmes and Young, a brutish horrible man to try overcome, why would Klitschko fair better? Madness.

[Bobby A.]

Norton and Futch made their peace; Ken has praised Futch highly and says he regrets their split.How do you think Norton would have done with Tyson, Ruddock and the older Foreman?