Question for beaujack

[beaujack]

Beaujack: Did you see Sugar Ray fight Gavilan, Belloise or Georgie Abrams?

Bobby I did not see Ray Robinson flatten the great punching Steve Belloise, or Gavilan or Georgie Abrams. But I saw Marcel Cerdan decision the tough Georgie Abrams MSG, 1946. I did see Gavilan fight at MSG, but not against Robinson. I saw Ray Robinson, by far the best fighter I ever saw
against a faded Henry Armstrong,and several other times, most notably against Randy Turpin at the Polo Grounds....

Hi Beau,
What was your take on Marcel Cerdan and how do you think he would have faired against LaMotta in a rematch?

K, As I posted before I saw Marcel Cerdan once against the underated Georgie Abrams at MSG,1946.
It was Cerdan's first bout in America, and he won a close Decision against Abrams, who drew with Charley Burley and gave Ray Robinson hell in 1947.
I believe that the determined Cerdan would have outpointed LaMotta in their rematch if Cerdan
hadn't lost his life when his plane crashed over the Azores, coming to America in 1949...

[beaujack]

Hi Burt,

Where do you relate John L. Sullivan, Peter Jackson and Jack Johnson in comparison to Louis and Dempsey?

I have always believed that the PRIME Dempsey, 1919-23, and my man and boyhood idol, Joe Louis
would have beaten any other heavyweight at their bests. Both Dempsey and Joe Louis combined great two-handed punching power and HANDSPEED, never seen before or since by a heavyweight.Today Dempsey and Louis, are not in favor by today's "latest is greatest" fans...I have always believed in the old adage, "speed kills", and Dempsey and Louis without steroidic "muscles" of todays dreadnaughts,were big enough and strong enough to kayo any heavyweight if they hit them on the button. In 1950 a poll was held in which 250 boxing writers who saw Dempsey" before Tunney ", up to Joe Louis ,PICKED Jack Dempsey by a large majority, as the best heavyweight they had ever seen.
And I concur...Cheers.

[barrack osama]

Hi Burt,

Where do you relate John L. Sullivan, Peter Jackson and Jack Johnson in comparison to Louis and Dempsey?

I have always believed that the PRIME Dempsey, 1919-23, and my man and boyhood idol, Joe Louis
would have beaten any other heavyweight at their bests. Both Dempsey and Joe Louis combined great two-handed punching power and HANDSPEED, never seen before or since by a heavyweight.Today Dempsey and Louis, are not in favor by today's "latest is greatest" fans...I have always believed in the old adage, "speed kills", and Dempsey and Louis without steroidic "muscles" of todays dreadnaughts,were big enough and strong enough to kayo any heavyweight if they hit them on the button. In 1950 a poll was held in which 250 boxing writers who saw Dempsey" before Tunney ", up to Joe Louis ,PICKED Jack Dempsey by a large majority, as the best heavyweight they had ever seen.
And I concur...Cheers.

I'm aware of what you're saying but can you answer my question please.

[Boilermaker]

Hi Burt,

Where do you relate John L. Sullivan, Peter Jackson and Jack Johnson in comparison to Louis and Dempsey?

I have always believed that the PRIME Dempsey, 1919-23, and my man and boyhood idol, Joe Louis
would have beaten any other heavyweight at their bests. Both Dempsey and Joe Louis combined great two-handed punching power and HANDSPEED, never seen before or since by a heavyweight.Today Dempsey and Louis, are not in favor by today's "latest is greatest" fans...I have always believed in the old adage, "speed kills", and Dempsey and Louis without steroidic "muscles" of todays dreadnaughts,were big enough and strong enough to kayo any heavyweight if they hit them on the button. In 1950 a poll was held in which 250 boxing writers who saw Dempsey" before Tunney ", up to Joe Louis ,PICKED Jack Dempsey by a large majority, as the best heavyweight they had ever seen.
And I concur...Cheers.

Beau,

I think it is a big call to say that the Dempsey and louis bought a level of speed and power that was never before seen. John L Sullivan must have had a level of speed and power that was comparable, if you look at his record, particularly his early one, no one could KO fighters like Sullivan. The only real question (which can never be really settled, but i think you have to assume similar parity) is the question of quality of opposition. Sullivan KOd virtually every opponent , usually in 4 rounds. Fitzsimmons was a similar standard. And others like Choynski, Langford and co also had great speed and power. Jack Johnson and Corbett probably werent the same power levels, but certainly were considered by most to be quicker than Dempsey and Louis. Not that i am knocking Dempsey and Louis, because they were obviously greats, but i think that the improvement and availaibility of film does tend to overexemplify the level of revolution they bought tot he game in terms of speed and power.

[beaujack]

Hi Burt,

Where do you relate John L. Sullivan, Peter Jackson and Jack Johnson in comparison to Louis and Dempsey?

I have always believed that the PRIME Dempsey, 1919-23, and my man and boyhood idol, Joe Louis
would have beaten any other heavyweight at their bests. Both Dempsey and Joe Louis combined great two-handed punching power and HANDSPEED, never seen before or since by a heavyweight.Today Dempsey and Louis, are not in favor by today's "latest is greatest" fans...I have always believed in the old adage, "speed kills", and Dempsey and Louis without steroidic "muscles" of todays dreadnaughts,were big enough and strong enough to kayo any heavyweight if they hit them on the button. In 1950 a poll was held in which 250 boxing writers who saw Dempsey" before Tunney ", up to Joe Louis ,PICKED Jack Dempsey by a large majority, as the best heavyweight they had ever seen.
And I concur...Cheers.

I'm aware of what you're saying but can you answer my question please.

Who can say, but I envision in my minds eye, Dempsey with his welterweight speed and bobbing and weaving style, combined with his kill or be killed attitude would me too much for John L, Jackson or the defensive minded Jack Johnson. Dempsey in his prime,was an earlier and bigger edition of
Roberto Duran, snarl and all...As for Joe Louis, the greatest combination puncher ever Max Baer era,
would be hard to beat against a Sullivan, Jackson, Johnson. Louis at his best was described as a "coil spring unwinding ". Watch the triple left-hooks against the concrete chinned Max Baer in 1935...
So, i would wager my Lady Ga Ga autograph that Joe Louis beats this trio...

[Tinnie]

Hi Beau,

Did you ever dine at Jack Dempsey's Restaurant and meet The Manassa Mauler himself?

Cheers

No I never dined at Jack Dempsey's restaurant on B'wy,when I would go to MSG with my dad we would go to the Garden Cafeteria,across the street from the old MSG.
But one sunny afternoon,passing Dempsey's Restaurant I saw him sitting at a window table chatting. I was a couple inches away seperated by the glass window,when the great man got up faced us outside and waved a ham sized fist at us outside. I still remember the size of his large hands and his full blue-black hair...Looking inside the restaurant I saw the giant mural painted on his wall of him and Willard by artist George Bellow...I have a small copy on my office wall...

Thx for sharing your memories beau, you're certainly not wrong about Jack sporting a couple of hams at the end of those wrists!! was interested in seeing that mural you mentioned and came across this...

[beaujack]

Hi Beau,

Did you ever dine at Jack Dempsey's Restaurant and meet The Manassa Mauler himself?

Cheers

No I never dined at Jack Dempsey's restaurant on B'wy,when I would go to MSG with my dad we would go to the Garden Cafeteria,across the street from the old MSG.
But one sunny afternoon,passing Dempsey's Restaurant I saw him sitting at a window table chatting. I was a couple inches away seperated by the glass window,when the great man got up faced us outside and waved a ham sized fist at us outside. I still remember the size of his large hands and his full blue-black hair...Looking inside the restaurant I saw the giant mural painted on his wall of him and Willard by artist George Bellow...I have a small copy on my office wall...

Thx for sharing your memories beau, you're certainly not wrong about Jack sporting a couple of hams at the end of those wrists!! was interested in seeing that mural you mentioned and came across this...

Tinnie, yes that is the famous mural on Dempsey's restaurant wall on Bwy. I have a small copy hanging on my wall in my office. Your welcome T.

[beaujack]

Hi Burt,

Where do you relate John L. Sullivan, Peter Jackson and Jack Johnson in comparison to Louis and Dempsey?

I have always believed that the PRIME Dempsey, 1919-23, and my man and boyhood idol, Joe Louis
would have beaten any other heavyweight at their bests. Both Dempsey and Joe Louis combined great two-handed punching power and HANDSPEED, never seen before or since by a heavyweight.Today Dempsey and Louis, are not in favor by today's "latest is greatest" fans...I have always believed in the old adage, "speed kills", and Dempsey and Louis without steroidic "muscles" of todays dreadnaughts,were big enough and strong enough to kayo any heavyweight if they hit them on the button. In 1950 a poll was held in which 250 boxing writers who saw Dempsey" before Tunney ", up to Joe Louis ,PICKED Jack Dempsey by a large majority, as the best heavyweight they had ever seen.
And I concur...Cheers.

Beau,

I think it is a big call to say that the Dempsey and louis bought a level of speed and power that was never before seen. John L Sullivan must have had a level of speed and power that was comparable, if you look at his record, particularly his early one, no one could KO fighters like Sullivan. The only real question (which can never be really settled, but i think you have to assume similar parity) is the question of quality of opposition. Sullivan KOd virtually every opponent , usually in 4 rounds. Fitzsimmons was a similar standard. And others like Choynski, Langford and co also had great speed and power. Jack Johnson and Corbett probably werent the same power levels, but certainly were considered by most to be quicker than Dempsey and Louis. Not that i am knocking Dempsey and Louis, because they were obviously greats, but i think that the improvement and availaibility of film does tend to overexemplify the level of revolution they bought tot he game in terms of speed and power.

Boilermaker,It is only my opinion based on what I have culled and read on Dempsey and Louis.
I can't get a handle on the ability's of Sullivan,Fitz, Jackson and Corbett, as so little is known about their opposition. I have read about the true greatness of ruby robert,and Corbett, but in Dempsey and Louis I feel more comfortable calling them the two best offensive heavyweights ever. Fitzsimmons
was 20-35 pounds lighter than Dempsey and Louis,which would put Fitz at a disadvantage against
a Jack and Joe...But I could be wrong...

[orbtastic]

What are your opinions/memories/views on other European fighters of the era?

[beaujack]

What are your opinions/memories/views on other European fighters of the era?

O, what "era" are you talking about ? Ringside the best European fighters i saw were Marcel Cerdan, Randy Turpin, Bruce Woodcock of the 1940s-50s era. I also saw Bobo Olsen from Hawaii in MSG.
My dad saw Ted Kid Lewis ,and Battling Siki train in NY. And he saw the frenetic Jackie Kid Berg fight in the 1930s, MSG.

[orbtastic]

What are your opinions/memories/views on other European fighters of the era?

O, what "era" are you talking about ? Ringside the best European fighters i saw were Marcel Cerdan, Randy Turpin, Bruce Woodcock of the 1940s-50s era. I also saw Bobo Olsen from Hawaii in MSG.
My dad saw Ted Kid Lewis ,and Battling Siki train in NY. And he saw the frenetic Jackie Kid Berg fight in the 1930s, MSG.

Sorry, was IRT to an earlier reply, I just didn't quote it for neatness. I meant the 40s-50s but I guess you still watch boxing so it could apply to any era.

Was just curious, some of the top European guys didn't fight in the US - There are obvious notable exceptions, Cerdan being one, Kenny Buchanan another - and it seemed to harm their careers somewhat. KB & MC are held in universal high regard on both sides of the pond so I wondered whether that had an impact or not. Cerdan of course, possibly has claim to be the greatest African fighter in history.

I just like reading the first hand stuff, it has more life to it, keep it coming.

Woodcock's from my hometown, by all accounts he was well respected and carried his reputation for being a bit of a tough old nut well into retirement. Another Doncaster boxer, JonJo Irwin, trained at his old creaking gym for a while. I boxed for a few seasons at the Plant ABC where he worked and boxed, very old school place.

[Bobby A.]

It's odd to note that tales of the tape list Dempsey's fists as 11.25 inches, yet they seem huge in the photo on this thread.Then again, photos can be deceiving.

[orbtastic]

i've a press photo of his fists close up and they do look huge

[barry]

BJack---Was you ringside any of the times Eduardo Lausse journeyed to New York? Also, did you see Bob Satterfield, or Tommy Gomez live? I've read a lot of fight reports in which Gomez scored one-punch knockouts against some tough heavyweights...I certainly would not have expected to see Gomez vs Satterfield go the distance! What about Tommy Collins? He was one hell of a puncher as well! I did some research on Beau Jack's early career and located a few early bouts that had not previously been in his record. Bouts that occured in Aiken, SC just a few miles away from Augusta. He had more bouts in Aiken, if someone has access to Aiken's newspaper...the bouts I located came from the Augusta Chronicle! In 1939 he was fighting sometimes as "Battling" Bo Jack!

[barry]

As to top offensive heavyweights it would be difficult to leave Tyson out of the mix! I still like Dempsey and Louis as having the best offense in the division! Dempsey was truly an offensive monster! I think Dempsey, Stanley Ketchel and Terry McGovern were all about as similar as it gets in their fighting styles!

[raylawpc]

i've a press photo of his fists close up and they do look huge

I had the honor of shaking the great man's hand. His hands weren't the biggest I've ever seen on a heavyweight but they were big.

[beaujack]

BJack---Was you ringside any of the times Eduardo Lausse journeyed to New York? Also, did you see Bob Satterfield, or Tommy Gomez live? I've read a lot of fight reports in which Gomez scored one-punch knockouts against some tough heavyweights...I certainly would not have expected to see Gomez vs Satterfield go the distance! What about Tommy Collins? He was one hell of a puncher as well! I did some research on Beau Jack's early career and located a few early bouts that had not previously been in his record. Bouts that occured in Aiken, SC just a few miles away from Augusta. He had more bouts in Aiken, if someone has access to Aiken's newspaper...the bouts I located came from the Augusta Chronicle! In 1939 he was fighting sometimes as "Battling" Bo Jack!

Ah,barry, you stirred up memory's in me...To answer your question first.
No I didn't see eduardo Lausse ringside, But saw him many times on TV frm MSG. What an exciting puncher,yessir. Without a shred of doubt, Lausse would be MW champion today. But in his day there were so many top MWs,that Lausse just never became champ...
Yes I had heard about the "new Dempsey' Tommy Gomez ,war hero from Tampa, Fl. About 180-5 pounds of dynamite. . So we went to MSG, Aug, 1946 to see the "new" Dempsey take on the tricky
32 year old Joe Walcott'who upset the applecart and ko'd Tommy Gomez in the 3rd round.
Finito, Tommy, hello Jersey Joe...
I saw the most action filled fighter I ever saw ringside, watching my first pro card my dad took me to,
with the young Beau Jack from Augusta, Georgia at the old St. Nicks Arena..What a fight between young Beau and the tough friend of Rocky Graziano, Terry Young...Still remember that barnburner, lo these many years...

[yancey]

What a great thread!

beaujack, how do you see Smokin' Joe Frazier doing against Dempsey and Tunney?

[beaujack]

What a great thread!

beaujack, how do you see Smokin' Joe Frazier doing against Dempsey and Tunney?

Y, Joe Frazier i first saw fight Buster Mathis in the Olympics in I believe 1964 at the World's Fair'Arena in Flushing NY. Frazier lost a decision to Big Buster. Then I next saw Frazier ringsiude in the FOTC
in MSG 1971. I also saw him train in Sullivan County NY. I loved Fraziers courage and modest personality. A man's man...
Having said that, I believe no heavyweight ever, beats the prime Jack Dempsey in the trenches at his own game. A devastating puncher in close who at his best was a great short puncher with 6" power
and great handspeed. Dempsey had faster legs than Joe, and longer arms. Two of my 3 favorite Hwts
alongst my man the trip-hammer punching Joe Louis..So I see Dempsey stopping Frazier most likely.
Not the Dempsey of the 3 year layoff against Tunney, but the 1919-23 Manassa Mauler..
As far as Tunney against Frazier...Both primes, I would make Frazier a 7-5 favorite, because of his non stop aggression. But the Gene Tunney who kod Tom Heeney in his last fight, could have cut up Joe Frazier as Tunney had everything a fighter needed. No one can truly gauge how good Tunney was before retiring in his prime in 1928...He to me was just as effective as Ali, without the glitz and B.S.
Tunney was great...

[Ketchel]

Beau,
At one time there was talk of a possible Archie Moore V Ray Robinson fight at light heavy. It is mentioned in a bio of Robinson's also. How would you have seen this matchup pan out?

[beaujack]

Beau,
At one time there was talk of a possible Archie Moore V Ray Robinson fight at light heavy. It is mentioned in a bio of Robinson's also. How would you have seen this matchup pan out?

Supposedly Archie Moore and Ray Robinson met to discuss a match between Moore and Robinson..
Nothing was resolved for the possible bout, but Ray Robinson who KNEW his limitations,Chose the light punching Joey Maxim instead. I cannot see the 155lb Robinson beating the 175 pound hard punching Archie Moore. Moore by a ko in the 8th round IMO...

[Tomasino]

Beaujack, thanks for your recollections and insights on this thread.

On Archie Moore; how would Bernard Hopkins, Chad Dawson, Bute and Pascal get on against the old Mongoose?

In particular Hopkins. Thanks Beaujack.

[beaujack]

Beaujack, thanks for your recollections and insights on this thread.

On Archie Moore; how would Bernard Hopkins, Chad Dawson, Bute and Pascal get on against the old Mongoose?

In particular Hopkins. Thanks Beaujack.

I think that the prime Archie Moore of the 1940s,who fought such great LHs as Ezzard Charles, Jimmy Bivins, Lloyd Marshall, Harold Johnson,Joey Maxim would have little or no trouble against a Dawson, Bute, Pascal, and furthermore Bernard hopkins would not have even been a LW contender at his mid forties. in Archie Moore's prime. The ONLY reason Hopkins is not retired in his forties, is because of the
mediocre LHs fighting today...

[Tomasino]

Beaujack, thanks for your recollections and insights on this thread.

On Archie Moore; how would Bernard Hopkins, Chad Dawson, Bute and Pascal get on against the old Mongoose?

In particular Hopkins. Thanks Beaujack.

I think that the prime Archie Moore of the 1940s,who fought such great LHs as Ezzard Charles, Jimmy Bivins, Lloyd Marshall, Harold Johnson,Joey Maxim would have little or no trouble against a Dawson, Bute, Pascal, and furthermore Bernard hopkins would not have even been a LW contender at his mid forties. in Archie Moore's prime. The ONLY reason Hopkins is not retired in his forties, is because of the
mediocre LHs fighting today...

Thanks. I agree with you, it makes me cringe when I read or hear people comparing Hopkins favourably to Moore.

[Bobby A.]

Beaujack: How would you handicap a fight between your namesake and Duran?