Question for beaujack

[beaujack]

Beaujack: How would you handicap a fight between your namesake and Duran?

Bobby, interesting question,and a complicated answer. The only film of Beau Jack in existance is the fight I as a youngster saw in Philly in 1948 when Beau Jack was kod by Ike Williams. Beau Jack by this time had about 85 tough bouts and was on the downside by then. He crammed so many tough fights by then with his non-stop windmill style beating the likes of Fritzie Zivic 2, Henry Armstrong, Bob Montgomery, Al Bummy Davis, Willy Joyce, etc. So I think that the young prime Beau Jack
who whipped Henry Armstrong in 1943 beats Roberto Duran ,BOTH at lightweights..Duran never faced such a roster of lightweights as Beau Jack did. But I think that Duran was better thgan Beau Jack in the heavier weights. As a Welterweight and MW, Duran was more resillient, and had a better defense. But H2H in their 135 primes, I think Beau Jack who beat Armstrong and Zivic beats Duran at LW...

[barry]

It was by no accident that Beau Jack had the most main events at Madison Square Garden! His style was almost impervious to creating a bad fight. I think it could easily be stated that when Beau Jack fought the audience could expect blood! At his prime against a prime Duran...jeez...that's a hard call! I think it would be a very close fight, but I would give it to Duran as I feel that he was the heavier hitter. I don't think it would go the distance, but it would last until late in the fight and would be a great all-action fight! Jack fought his entire career right around the lightweight weight limit and Duran moved up in several weight classes and was very, very successful at the higher weights!

[beaujack]

It was by no accident that Beau Jack had the most main events at Madison Square Garden! His style was almost impervious to creating a bad fight. I think it could easily be stated that when Beau Jack fought the audience could expect blood! At his prime against a prime Duran...jeez...that's a hard call! I think it would be a very close fight, but I would give it to Duran as I feel that he was the heavier hitter. I don't think it would go the distance, but it would last until late in the fight and would be a great all-action fight! Jack fought his entire career right around the lightweight weight limit and Duran moved up in several weight classes and was very, very successful at the higher weights!

Barry except for only ONE fight against Ike Williams in Philly,1948 which I saw ringside, there is no frame of reference for today's posters. I have seen Beau Jack maybe 15 times in action whilst in his prime. Beau burnt out fairly early because the demand to see him in action was so great..He was ,
at his best a human dynamo,who beat the likes of Tippy Larkin, Fritzie Zivic 2, Henry Armstrong,
Bob Montgomery, Sammy Angott, Johnny Bratton, Eric Boon,all top fighters in the great era of the 1940s,which was much superior to the lightweights that Roberto Duran had to fight. Yes Duran was a great fighter who was better than Beau in the heavier weight classes, and better defensive minded, than Jack was, but in a LW H2H matchup at their 135 lb bests, I take the most exciting fighter I ever saw..Of course i could be wrong....

[barry]

The wins of Beau Jack that you mention were all against fighters that had seen better days by the time they fought Jack! That doesn't take away from the exciting-style that Jack had, but they were against fighters that had passed their prime. I don't see Jack being able to stand up to the power of Duran...too reckless and if you thought you could take two, or three to land one against Duran then it would be a short night! Duran is top 3 lightweight and the debate of the greatest lightweight ever is a debate between Duran, Benny Leonard and Joe Gans! The IBRO have several members who saw Beau Jack live and he is not even ranked in the IBRO's top 20 lightweight list, although I would list him higher than a few of those fighters he was not in Duran's league! Beau Jack was an all-action fan-favorite and certainly an A class lightweight. However, Roberto Duran was a super-fighter and there are not a whole lot of fighters that fall into that category! Duran only lost one fight at lightweight against Esteban DeJesus...aside from that he beat Ernesto Marcel, Ken Buchanan, Angel Garcia, Hector Thompson, Guts Ishimata, and avenged the DeJesus loss with two stoppages over DeJesus all at lightweight! Add to that wins over Carlos Palomino, Sugar Ray Leonard, Pipino Cuevas, Davey Moore, Iran Barkley and a close fight with Marvin Hagler...well that stands up to any fighters competition! I agree about the 40s having better competition overall and Beau Jack is one fo my favorites, but as I said, Duran was a "Super-fighter," who at lightweight had a record of 62-1-0 (52 KO)...he was a class above Beau Jack!

[beaujack]

The wins of Beau Jack that you mention were all against fighters that had seen better days by the time they fought Jack! That doesn't take away from the exciting-style that Jack had, but they were against fighters that had passed their prime. I don't see Jack being able to stand up to the power of Duran...too reckless and if you thought you could take two, or three to land one against Duran then it would be a short night! Duran is top 3 lightweight and the debate of the greatest lightweight ever is a debate between Duran, Benny Leonard and Joe Gans! The IBRO have several members who saw Beau Jack live and he is not even ranked in the IBRO's top 20 lightweight list, although I would list him higher than a few of those fighters he was not in Duran's league! Beau Jack was an all-action fan-favorite and certainly an A class lightweight. However, Roberto Duran was a super-fighter and there are not a whole lot of fighters that fall into that category! Duran only lost one fight at lightweight against Esteban DeJesus...aside from that he beat Ernesto Marcel, Ken Buchanan, Angel Garcia, Hector Thompson, Guts Ishimata, and avenged the DeJesus loss with two stoppages over DeJesus all at lightweight! Add to that wins over Carlos Palomino, Sugar Ray Leonard, Pipino Cuevas, Davey Moore, Iran Barkley and a close fight with Marvin Hagler...well that stands up to any fighters competition! I agree about the 40s having better competition overall and Beau Jack is one fo my favorites, but as I said, Duran was a "Super-fighter," who at lightweight had a record of 62-1-0 (52 KO)...he was a class above Beau Jack!

Barry, let me say right off, you know your stuff. Yes Henry Armstrong and Fritzie Zivic had seen their best days before losing to Beau Jack. But Zivic a WW was just 30 years old when he lost to the smaller Beau Jack. I still believe fervently that Beau Jack met in general better lightweights than Duran did. The Beau Jack I saw flatten Tippy Larkin and Allie Stolz would be tough for Roberto to handle. Strong as a bull throwing hooks, crosses , uppercuts, bolo punches for 15 rounds if needed.
I agree that Roberto Duran was a greater fighter in longevity than Beau was, no doubt.
But what a war that would have been, oh my!
P.S. Barry ,would you be considered an "oldtimer" ?

[CNorkusJr]

i've a press photo of his fists close up and they do look huge

I had the honor of shaking the great man's hand. His hands weren't the biggest I've ever seen on a heavyweight but they were big.

Nobodys hands come close to Primo Carnera's fists that were casted and shown up in Canastota, NY.
How the heck he fit them into 14 or 16 oz gloves is beyond me.

Here is another angle of Dempseys hands separating Hurricane Jackson vs C. Norkus before their 1954 bout. Having met Ken Norton-he has big fists also.

[barry]

I'm 40, but I have 30+ years of research, 25+ years of very dedicated research, which my favorite era is 1895-1920, but then again I enjoy the 30s and 40s just as much, but in my personal library of boxing material I do have more memorabilia from the 1950s onward! As to competition, I agree that Beau Jack fought the better opposition overall, but again, Duran is a top-3 all-time lightweight. In terms of style Jack is right there with the Danny Lopez's, Rocky Graziano's and Henry Armstrong's in terms of excitement, but a prime Armstrong, in my opinion wins pretty handily over Beau Jack! I have researched Beau Jack about as much as I have any fighter with maybe the exception of Terry McGovern, Sam Langford and "Barbados" Joe Walcott and he was a great fighter who truly deserves Hall of Fame status...I just don't rate him in the same class as Duran, Gans, or Leonard! In terms of excitement, he would not have been at MSG as much as he was if he had not been great! I never met him, but from what I have read he was a real good guy as well and unfortunately, like so many other greats, he was not able to hold on to what he made in the ring, but then again, when people give fighters flack for losing miliions they don't take into count that a lot of the fighters never finished school and few, although intelligent, could not be called highly educated, with execptions like Chuck Davey, and also they are very young when they make a fortune. I'm sure if I had 10 million dollars when I was 20 I would be broke. I have a hard time rating fighters of today with the old-timers, with the exception of a few of course who could fight in any era, so I guess I am an "old-timer" at heart, certainly physically I am on the down-side! I know I certainly would have loved to have seen the fights and fighters live that you have, which hopefully if I make it to Heaven my version will be one in which I get to watch all the mythical matches that we all love to argue about...it would great to see a couple of rounds of Graziano vs Ketchel and others of the like!

[barry]

A couple of nights ago I was just reading about how they threw Dan Bucceroni in with Tommy Jackson, which pretty much ended Bucceroni as a possible heavyweight threat! Was it Jackson, or Tommy Harrison who later pretended to be Bob Satterfield?

[Jaclem]

...it was tommy harrison.

[beaujack]

I'm 40, but I have 30+ years of research, 25+ years of very dedicated research, which my favorite era is 1895-1920, but then again I enjoy the 30s and 40s just as much, but in my personal library of boxing material I do have more memorabilia from the 1950s onward! As to competition, I agree that Beau Jack fought the better opposition overall, but again, Duran is a top-3 all-time lightweight. In terms of style Jack is right there with the Danny Lopez's, Rocky Graziano's and Henry Armstrong's in terms of excitement, but a prime Armstrong, in my opinion wins pretty handily over Beau Jack! I have researched Beau Jack about as much as I have any fighter with maybe the exception of Terry McGovern, Sam Langford and "Barbados" Joe Walcott and he was a great fighter who truly deserves Hall of Fame status...I just don't rate him in the same class as Duran, Gans, or Leonard! In terms of excitement, he would not have been at MSG as much as he was if he had not been great! I never met him, but from what I have read he was a real good guy as well and unfortunately, like so many other greats, he was not able to hold on to what he made in the ring, but then again, when people give fighters flack for losing miliions they don't take into count that a lot of the fighters never finished school and few, although intelligent, could not be called highly educated, with execptions like Chuck Davey, and also they are very young when they make a fortune. I'm sure if I had 10 million dollars when I was 20 I would be broke. I have a hard time rating fighters of today with the old-timers, with the exception of a few of course who could fight in any era, so I guess I am an "old-timer" at heart, certainly physically I am on the down-side! I know I certainly would have loved to have seen the fights and fighters live that you have, which hopefully if I make it to Heaven my version will be one in which I get to watch all the mythical matches that we all love to argue about...it would great to see a couple of rounds of Graziano vs Ketchel and others of the like!

Barry, a delight to know about your love of boxing history and the great fighters of the past.
As to the relative merits of Beau Jack and Roberto Duran, I agree with you that Duran was the greater fighter career-wise. No doubt about that...I too know a bit about Beau Jack considering Beau was in the first main event bout my dad took me to see..Against a tough S.O.B. Terry Young, a tough pal of Rocky Graziano at St Nicks Arena, NY. I also saw Beau Jack beat a past peak Henry Armstrong ,
Bob Montgomery, Al [Bummy ] Davis, Ike Williams and quite a few other top fighters in the talent rich 1940s...The Beau Jack I saw against Henry Armstrong after Beau Jack whipped the bigger Fritzie Zivic
twice in a row was a human dynamo at this time...I truly believe THIS Beau Jack ,before his brave mgr
overfought him, would have decisioned any version of the 135 pound Duran. This Beau was a powerfully built minuature version of a Harry Greb, who would have out volleyed Duran at the 135 pound weight. Beau Jack at the start of his career fought weekly against the toughest LWs of that time
and was burnt out by the time he was kod by the great Ike Williams in Philly in 1948, in which I
as a teenager traveled by bus to Philly to see that bout...
So yes Roberto Duran was a better all around fighter who went up in weight with success. No doubt about it. But were Beau Jack from the Henry Armstrong Zivic victories, hooked up with the 135 pound Duran, my dough would be on my namesake, 15 rounds... Take care ...
P.S. It is too bad that you and other board members only see ONE remaining film of Beau in action
against Ike Williams, when he was burnt out by 1948...But I was lucky to see him ringside....

[raylawpc]

I think we all tend to favor the heros of our youth. When I was a kid, a remember my Dad and Granddad having a similar "discussion" about the merits of Joe Louis and Jack Dempsey. My Dad (born 1927) favored Louis. Grandpa (born 1900) favored Dempsey. After going back and forth, I remember my Grandpa stopped, smiled, and then said, "I remember having a similar discussion with my Dad (born 1852). He didn't think anybody was better than John L. Sullivan."

[beaujack]

I think we all tend to favor the heros of our youth. When I was a kid, a remember my Dad and Granddad having a similar "discussion" about the merits of Joe Louis and Jack Dempsey. My Dad (born 1927) favored Louis. Grandpa (born 1900) favored Dempsey. After going back and forth, I remember my Grandpa stopped, smiled, and then said, "I remember having a similar discussion with my Dad (born 1852). He didn't think anybody was better than John L. Sullivan."

Some truth to that RAY. My grandfather who attended the David vs Goliath bout, always thought David was the greatest giantkiller of alltime...

[barry]

When I was a kid my favorites were Larry Holmes, his fight with Norton is what really turned me on to boxing, Marvin Hagler, of course, Danny Lopez...rarely does a fighter have the kind of firepower that Lopez had with a chin to match, which Lopez fought bombers, ko specialists, so Lopez getting dropped would be expected against the kind of punchers he faced, but he got back up to out-bomb his opponent...p4p one of the most exciting fighters ever, then there was Wilfredo Gomez, who at his peak, and in tip-top shape, was near perfection. A little later was Chavez and Julian Jackson, my two favorite late 80s, early 90s fighters. I could go on with the names, but I always find myself looking back to the fights prior to 1950. I would bet on a prime Chavez to beat Jack at 135 as well, which I am not trying to disparage against Beau Jack, it's just that I do not rate him in the same class as a "super-fighter." He was one hell of a lightweight with the exact kind of style that I love in a fighter. In a rough 'em up street brawl I may probably pick Jack, but the accuracy in which Duran, Chavez and others had it would greatly outweigh overall toughness because the only fighters that Duran and Chavez had trouble against were boxers extraordinaire. Jack would take a couple to land one, he was perpetual motion, just like McGovern, Dempsey, Armstrong, Ketchel and that just would not sit well with punchers, who were just as tough in their prime and a lot more accurate with heavier punches. Duran and Chavez had a lot better defense, a chin to match and the power to not just hurt an opponent, but a power that shook opponents in their boots and as tough as Beau Jack was I don't think, with his style, that he could stand up to 12, much less 15 rounds from a Chavez...that left hook to the liver would break down most any fighter. Meldrick Taylor was the only fighter that was able to stand with Chavez, but in the end look at the overall damage...he destroyed Taylor, who prior to that bout was one of the best boxers in the game, but then again, Jack was no boxer extraordinaire and a face-first style never bodes well against accurate power-punchers with a pretty solid defense rarely, if ever recieved a cut in any bout.

[fatcity69]

I actually think the peak Duran at lightweight is often underrated, his sheer ferocity and power overshadowed the fact that he had very superior boxing skills and brilliant speed... his skills only really started being appreciated when he moved up in the divisions. Duran at his peak was the best infighter I have ever seen and I really feel that at his lightweight best no other fighter would be able to outfight him, for this reason I would pick him over Jack quite clearly... a hell of a fight to be sure but Duran loved to fight sluggers... the nuances of his defence was beautiful to watch, especially on the inside... he could be right in range and make an opponent miss by a meres hairs breath and even when caught he would ride the shot like few other fighters I have seen. Its no accident that Duran was seldom marked up in fights, let alone cut... even into his dotage. All respect to Beau, but Duran was a special one.

[beaujack]

I actually think the peak Duran at lightweight is often underrated, his sheer ferocity and power overshadowed the fact that he had very superior boxing skills and brilliant speed... his skills only really started being appreciated when he moved up in the divisions. Duran at his peak was the best infighter I have ever seen and I really feel that at his lightweight best no other fighter would be able to outfight him, for this reason I would pick him over Jack quite clearly... a hell of a fight to be sure but Duran loved to fight sluggers... the nuances of his defence was beautiful to watch, especially on the inside... he could be right in range and make an opponent miss by a meres hairs breath and even when caught he would ride the shot like few other fighters I have seen. Its no accident that Duran was seldom marked up in fights, let alone cut... even into his dotage. All respect to Beau, but Duran was a special one.

f, good post by you...I agree that Roberto Duran was something "special ". A minuature Dempsey
on the attack, meaness and all. Ike Williams [uncuffed] and Duran were the 2 best lightweights i ever saw . However we are debating not who was a greater fighter career -wise, but who would win in their primes at 135 pounds...i think that seeing young Beau Jack fight at his prime against a class of better LWs in that great LW era, Bob Montgomery, Henry Armstrong, Fritzie Zivic, Tippy Larkin, [who would
outclass Ken Buchanan in boxing ability],Willie Joyce, Al Bummy Davis, Allie Stolz, etc, gives me a better perspective than you, wouldn't you think ? You truly cannot accurately visualize the all out attack of Beau Jack,for 15 rounds if necessary...He had a great chin. He fought the best left-hooker
of that time Al Bummy Davis, who I saw Flatten the formidable Bob Montgomery in one round. A few weeks later [they were very busy those days] Al Davis met Beau Jack at MSG, and in the first round Davis unloaded his lethal hook on Beau's chin and nada..Beau Jack shook off a couple of those left-hooks and proceeded to batter Al Davis for a one sided decision...So, I feel that H2H at lighweight,
I think that the dynamo that was Beau Jack would win a close decision over the great Duran, but I woudn't WAGER on it...

[fatcity69]

I actually think the peak Duran at lightweight is often underrated, his sheer ferocity and power overshadowed the fact that he had very superior boxing skills and brilliant speed... his skills only really started being appreciated when he moved up in the divisions. Duran at his peak was the best infighter I have ever seen and I really feel that at his lightweight best no other fighter would be able to outfight him, for this reason I would pick him over Jack quite clearly... a hell of a fight to be sure but Duran loved to fight sluggers... the nuances of his defence was beautiful to watch, especially on the inside... he could be right in range and make an opponent miss by a meres hairs breath and even when caught he would ride the shot like few other fighters I have seen. Its no accident that Duran was seldom marked up in fights, let alone cut... even into his dotage. All respect to Beau, but Duran was a special one.

f, good post by you...I agree that Roberto Duran was something "special ". A minuature Dempsey
on the attack, meaness and all. Ike Williams [uncuffed] and Duran were the 2 best lightweights i ever saw . However we are debating not who was a greater fighter career -wise, but who would win in their primes at 135 pounds...i think that seeing young Beau Jack fight at his prime against a class of better LWs in that great LW era, Bob Montgomery, Henry Armstrong, Fritzie Zivic, Tippy Larkin, [who would
outclass Ken Buchanan in boxing ability],Willie Joyce, Al Bummy Davis, Allie Stolz, etc, gives me a better perspective than you, wouldn't you think ? You truly cannot accurately visualize the all out attack of Beau Jack,for 15 rounds if necessary...He had a great chin. He fought the best left-hooker
of that time Al Bummy Davis, who I saw Flatten the formidable Bob Montgomery in one round. A few weeks later [they were very busy those days] Al Davis met Beau Jack at MSG, and in the first round Davis unloaded his lethal hook on Beau's chin and nada..Beau Jack shook off a couple of those left-hooks and proceeded to batter Al Davis for a one sided decision...So, I feel that H2H at lighweight,
I think that the dynamo that was Beau Jack would win a close decision over the great Duran, but I woudn't WAGER on it...

Well I'm always happy to agree to disagree, after all if we all saw the world through the same eyes what a bore it would be!. However, for the sake of argument, regarding your point about having a better perspective due to seeing Jack 'live' ...this is a flawed argument in my opinion as it is my belief that the best way to judge the overall merits of a fighter is overwhelmingly by film rather than live at ringside. The reason for this is that when we watch fighters live our judgements are distorted, the sound and smells, the noise of the crowd, the whole excitement of the occasion itself is not congenial to developing our best and unbiased judgement. This is even not to mention the often erratic veiw of the action at hand even when one has a ringside seat. Fighters can be both over built or under appreciated when viewed purely live. It is only when watching with a more dispassionate mindset and the clear view that film gives us that we can really see the little moves and tell tale signs during a fight which are too often lost when viewed from ringside. And I say all this havine been at live fights 100s of times in the past 30 years. There is no better judgement than watching a fight/fighter on tv imo. Having said that I feel well placed after watching a fair bit of Jack on film and after reading a lot about him in the past 20 years plus and having also seen all of Durans available fights and read everything I could on him, to say that I feel that Duran as the technically better fighter and also having the edge in speed, would just have too much for Jack. You agree yourself that Duran was the better 135 pounder, so it makes sense that a prime Duran would beat a Prime Jack. I would go for a late stoppage in Durans favour. Jack would not stop coming and this aspect of his style would be his ultimate undoing against Duran.

[Tomasino]

Beaujack, what's this reference to Ike Williams uncuffed? I've tried to look into it a little but the search brings up comments by yourself on this and other sites. Please enlighten me.

[beaujack]

Beaujack, what's this reference to Ike Williams uncuffed? I've tried to look into it a little but the search brings up comments by yourself on this and other sites. Please enlighten me.

D, good question. It is a fact that Ike Williams COULDN'T and DIDN"T go all out in his bouts.
Ike Williams had to toe the mark in many fights those days. He then was blackballed when he tried to change manager by the Boxing Guild of New Jersey. He receIved no support from fellow fighters AND LOST QUITE A BIT OF HIS PRIME THOSE DAYS...But when Ike was "trying", he was the most feared fighter outside a man named Ray Robinson...

[raylawpc]

Beaujack, what's this reference to Ike Williams uncuffed? I've tried to look into it a little but the search brings up comments by yourself on this and other sites. Please enlighten me.

D, good question. It is a fact that Ike Williams COULDN'T and DIDN"T go all out in his bouts.
Ike Williams had to toe the mark in many fights those days. He then was blackballed when he tried to change manager by the Boxing Guild of New Jersey. He receIved no support from fellow fighters AND LOST QUITE A BIT OF HIS PRIME THOSE DAYS...But when Ike was "trying", he was the most feared fighter outside a man named Ray Robinson...

In Peter Heller's book, In This Corner . . ., Ike explains everything that happened to him back in those days. It's very interesting . . . and sad . . . to read. He was blackballed and treated shamefully when he demanded fair treatment.

[Tomasino]

Thanks guys, I have just ordered the book off amazon.

[raylawpc]

Thanks guys, I have just ordered the book off amazon.

I guarantee you will enjoy it for more than just Ike's interview. It is a great book - one of my favorites.

[Tomasino]

Thanks guys, I have just ordered the book off amazon.

I guarantee you will enjoy it for more than just Ike's interview. It is a great book - one of my favorites.

Cheers

[yancey]

Beaujack, did you ever have any interaction with Don Dunphy and Win Elliot?

Seems to me they teamed up quite a bit in the late '50s/early '60s calling fights.

I was small kid back then but I so enjoyed watching many of those Gillette MSG fights with my Dad and Uncle.

[beaujack]

Beaujack, did you ever have any interaction with Don Dunphy and Win Elliot?

Seems to me they teamed up quite a bit in the late '50s/early '60s calling fights.

I was small kid back then but I so enjoyed watching many of those Gillette MSG fights with my Dad and Uncle.

Y, I met Don Dunphy several times in the golf club he belonged to in Nassau County. A thin guy and a gentleman..