Who was the greatest heavyweight boxer of all time?

[raylawpc]

You're definitely wrong, he doesn't have to go beyond that.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

You're definitely wrong, he doesn't have to go beyond that.

[yancey]

You're definitely wrong, he doesn't have to go beyond that.

Probably shouldn't let yourself get dragged into a pissing contest, Saad.

He isn't likely to man up and admit he is wrong. I've seen this situation before.

Best to let it go, imo.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Probably shouldn't let yourself get dragged into a pissing contest, Saad.

He isn't likely to man up and admit he is wrong. I've seen this situation before.

Best to let it go, imo.

Sometimes you have to let an old man enjoy himself. He can't be the only senile fight fan babbling about Rocky Marciano while he spits mashed potatoes into the air.

Soon he will be telling us how Samson DutchBoy Gym is greater than Galaxy, Mayweather is greater than Robinson and Jemal Hinton is greater than Wilfredo Gomez.

[BoxBuzz]

This should clear up any ongoing controversy regarding this subject. When in doubt...go with the experts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWvDao-MpOk

[raylawpc]

Probably shouldn't let yourself get dragged into a pissing contest, Saad.

He isn't likely to man up and admit he is wrong. I've seen this situation before.

Best to let it go, imo.

Sometimes you have to let an old man enjoy himself. He can't be the only senile fight fan babbling about Rocky Marciano while he spits mashed potatoes into the air.

Soon he will be telling us how Samson DutchBoy Gym is greater than Galaxy, Mayweather is greater than Robinson and Jemal Hinton is greater than Wilfredo Gomez.

Read what I wrote. I never said Marciano was a greater fighter overall than Ali or Louis. I said if you are doing the evaluation in terms of achievement, I favor Rocky's achievement of going undefeated in the heavyweight division over all others. You add in other factors like natural talent, technique and skill, "heart" and dedication, head-to-head, historical impact, etc., both Ali and Louis are ahead of Rocky. (And, I hate to tell you Yancey, they are ahead of Smokin' Joe too. . .)

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Probably shouldn't let yourself get dragged into a pissing contest, Saad.

He isn't likely to man up and admit he is wrong. I've seen this situation before.

Best to let it go, imo.

Sometimes you have to let an old man enjoy himself. He can't be the only senile fight fan babbling about Rocky Marciano while he spits mashed potatoes into the air.

Soon he will be telling us how Samson DutchBoy Gym is greater than Galaxy, Mayweather is greater than Robinson and Jemal Hinton is greater than Wilfredo Gomez.

Read what I wrote. I never said Marciano was a greater fighter overall than Ali or Louis. I said if you are doing the evaluation in terms of achievement, I favor Rocky's achievement of going undefeated in the heavyweight division over all others. You add in other factors like natural talent, technique and skill, "heart" and dedication, head-to-head, historical impact, etc., both Ali and Louis are ahead of Rocky. (And, I hate to tell you Yancey, they are ahead of Smokin' Joe too. . .)

[Giancarlo]

Did someone just mention Smokin' Joe Frazier?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Did someone just mention Smokin' Joe Frazier?

The same guy who thinks Marciano is more accomplished than Ali or louis. Nobody to bother with.

[raylawpc]

Learn to read.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Learn to read.

[beaujack]

Please bear in mind that when Ali fought Frazier & Norton in particular, he was not at this best.

If you want to talk about Ali at his peak, you have to take him on his very best night in 1966 or 1967.

Ok, take Ali at his best 1966-1967 as you say. And i will take the Joe Louis of the Max Baer fight,who was the greatest combination EVER. Witness those triple left-hooks landing on Baer's chin like a Gatling gun.THIS Joe Louis was rightfully described "as a coil spring unwinding". No way any version of Clay/Ali ever beats the young Brown Bomber. Look at the problem Norton's left jab caused Ali !
Louis's jab was expressed by one victim as "a light bulb exploding in your face". Followed by great leverage and handspeed.
Louis's fists did the talking,not his mouth...Louis winner by ko 9th round...

BJ, first you say you're only talking Ali at his best and mention 1966-67.

Then you start rambling on about the problems he had with Norton's jab.

G, Clay/Ali in 1966-67 would have had trouble with Ken Norton's jab at any stage. I'm sorry if
trying to explain my position is called "rambling" to you, but to me this post requires more than a simple sentence...
I am quite certain G, were I to have agreed with you that Ali would have beaten the prime Joe Louis
you wouldn't have thought that i rambled...

[Goodnight, Irene]

Giancarlo (and his various aliases) is the forum clown, Beau. If you're picking against Ali, I wouldnt expect anything from him.

Except maybe an invitation to a street fight for besmirching his idol's good name, mind. Right, Collie?

[Crease]

Larry Holmes was right, he couldn't have carried his jock.

If Larry ever fought Rocky Marciano he would have been very surprised...

[SaadOffTheDeck]

No he wouldn't have, Holmes was always prepared and that was more frustration with the media than it was he thought Rocky was utter shit. That jab would have turned Marciano's face into a river of blood. 12-3 or 11-4 kind of decision if it doesn't get stopped on cuts.

[Goodnight, Irene]

^^^Sometimes I think this, and then others I recall Holmes struggling a whole hell of a lot in what should have been far easier situations with notably inferior guys to Marciano.

[Crease]

No he wouldn't have, Holmes was always prepared and that was more frustration with the media than it was he thought Rocky was utter shit. That jab would have turned Marciano's face into a river of blood. 12-3 or 11-4 kind of decision if it doesn't get stopped on cuts.

As GI said before me, Holmes struggled with much more inferior fighters than Marciano. Please allow me to ask you a question:

What victory/performance in Holmes career makes you think that he would have been a guarantee to beat Marciano?

Larry never ever fought anyone like Marciano. Marciano was a relentless beast and Larry wouldn't have the speed to stay away from him. His jab would be his most effective weapon, but it would have been his ONLY weapon....
I don't believe that Holmes could have overpowered Rocky.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

That's a beautiful argument. Marciano didn't struggle with inferior fighters to Holmes? What victory/performance in marciano's career would make you think he would be a guarantee to beat Larry Holmes? Rocky never saw anything like a prime Larry holmes. He was a beautiful and fluid Boxer with heart for days and a rock solid chin. That's an easy game to play Crease when you're dealing with two all-time greats from shallow eras. I'd expect more from you if you want an actual debate.

Marciano's struggles with laStarza and the undressing at the hands of Walcott are more indicative to me who the favorite is than any of Larry's fights. Holmes was very accurate and he couldn't miss Rocky with a blindfold on. He wouldn't hurt him and I'm sure Rocky would hurt Larry along the way, but I have no reason to think he wouldn't work out of it. He always did.

Relentless as rocky was, those jabs would be pounding his face when he was nowhere near range to land a punch.Holmes uppercut wouldn't be effective against Marciano? Really? I can only laugh at that. And I never said he would overpower him, he would out-box him.

[Counter-puncher]

Larry Holmes was right, he couldn't have carried his jock.

If Larry ever fought Rocky Marciano he would have been very surprised...

'technically speaking...', was what Holmes said, I think, and he was right. technically speaking Marciano couldn't carry Holmes' jockstrap. you're talking about one of the 2 or 3 most technically skilled heavyweight champs vs one of the least skilled ever, here.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Larry Holmes was right, he couldn't have carried his jock.

If Larry ever fought Rocky Marciano he would have been very surprised...

'technically speaking...', was what Holmes said, I think, and he was right. technically speaking Marciano couldn't carry Holmes' jockstrap. you're talking about one of the 2 or 3 most technically skilled heavyweight champs vs one of the least skilled ever, here.

[Counter-puncher]

people miss out the 'technically speaking' bit, i assume because it makes Holmes seem (even) less magnanimous, but it bugs me a little.

[Giancarlo]

Ok, take Ali at his best 1966-1967 as you say. And i will take the Joe Louis of the Max Baer fight,who was the greatest combination EVER. Witness those triple left-hooks landing on Baer's chin like a Gatling gun.THIS Joe Louis was rightfully described "as a coil spring unwinding". No way any version of Clay/Ali ever beats the young Brown Bomber. Look at the problem Norton's left jab caused Ali !
Louis's jab was expressed by one victim as "a light bulb exploding in your face". Followed by great leverage and handspeed.
Louis's fists did the talking,not his mouth...Louis winner by ko 9th round...

BJ, first you say you're only talking Ali at his best and mention 1966-67.

Then you start rambling on about the problems he had with Norton's jab.

G, Clay/Ali in 1966-67 would have had trouble with Ken Norton's jab at any stage. I'm sorry if
trying to explain my position is called "rambling" to you, but to me this post requires more than a simple sentence...
I am quite certain G, were I to have agreed with you that Ali would have beaten the prime Joe Louis
you wouldn't have thought that i rambled...

Unfortunately, BJ, I fancy peak Louis over peak Ali. He's the only one of the past greats who I think had the tools to do it.

But do keep up the act; it's great to see an expert at work.

[Giancarlo]

Giancarlo (and his various aliases) is the forum clown, Beau. If you're picking against Ali, I wouldnt expect anything from him.

Except maybe an invitation to a street fight for besmirching his idol's good name, mind. Right, Collie?

Why don't you just stick to trading pictures with that other sicko Nancy?

Also, no more PMs thanks or I'll start forwarding them to Shep again.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Collie, are you telling lies again? Nobody has sent you a PM. Its an indictment on you that when we trade barbs, I use the truth, and you use fantasy.

And all the smiling emoticons in the world dont hide the fact that I p!ss you off so much, you have tried to arrange a street fight. OVER INTERNET FORUM POSTS WHICH PORTRAYED A NEGATIVE OPINION OF ALI

Hey Darling...

[Giancarlo]

Collie, are you telling lies again? Nobody has sent you a PM. Its an indictment on you that when we trade barbs, I use the truth, and you use fantasy.

And all the smiling emoticons in the world dont hide the fact that I p!ss you off so much, you have tried to arrange a street fight. OVER INTERNET FORUM POSTS WHICH PORTRAYED A NEGATIVE OPINION OF ALI

Hey Darling, I'm home and ready for action...

Was the last comment meant for Nancy?