hya B. A couple of points...First off i regard Bob Fitzimmons as a heavyweight posing in a middleweights body. A force of nature in that from the waist up he had heavyweight proportions, so he truly was astounding. Some old boxing expert who saw prime Fitz in action, was quoted as saying"itBoilermaker wrote:Beau,beaujack wrote:Ray, there is only one #1...Harry Greb, the most amazing Middleweight and P4P fighter ever...raylawpc wrote: Who is your #1, and does he make your cut?
Just think in 300 bouts he was stopped only in prelim days by a heavier more experienced Joe Chip
,and when he broke a bone against Kid Graves when a youngster. In the following 280 or so fights
Harry Greb was never stopped...weighing about 158-160 ,Harry Greb took on anyone and everyone and whipped such truly great fighters as Gene Tunney, Tommy Gibbons, Jack Dillon, Tommy Loughran, Battling Levinsky, Mike Gibbons, Gunboat Smith, Maxie Rosenbloom, Mickey Walker,
Big Bill Brennan, etc. He spotted many of these great fighters 15-35 pounds time and again, and get this, in the last 5 years of his great career, Harry Greb was BLIND in one eye,and very little sight in his remaining eye ! Ray Robinson, [best fighter I saw ringside] never would go after an Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Lloyd Marshall, Harold Johnson etc. Ray knew his limitations....Harry Greb in his long career took on EVERYONE regardless of size...Truly # 1...
It really is hard to fathom just how great Harry was. I know it probably seems like i downgrade him in the other thread where i compare him unfavourably to Fitz, but that is an unfair comparison. Greb's record is simply astonishing. I think there is no doubt whatsoever in my mind, that he beats Sugar Ray Robinson at middleweight which i think is an astonishing feat. Not just because he is teh bigger fighter, but also because he is perhaps the only person i can think who would be favoured to pull off such a feat, when Ray will be the bigger and harder hitter and who will not really have the bone jarring power at a level anything above which ray hasnt triumphed over many times before. Certainly i cant think of anyone else who might fit that bill.
The other astonishing thing about Greb is his longevity. Of its own it is as impressive as anyones. But, consider that Harry was best described as a swarmer. And as we all know, Swarmers traditionally have a style which burns them out and results in a very short career. Imagine if Greb had been an outside boxer with height and reach advantage like the Klitchskos. He might still be alive and boxing today.
I think i agree with you regarding how great Harry was (of course everything Harry Greb did, Bob Fitzsimmons did, and imo did it that little bit better) but I think that Harry is probably deserved at number 2, although some time soon i would like to have a good comparison of the careers of Monzon and Greb. Lots of simiarities there, and i am not so sure that Harry will come out ahead in that one, but he easily might.
Anyway back to the comparisons with another great middleweight such as Monzon, who i rate as a great, even though he didnt beat the opposition Langford, Greb, fitz and many others did, because he didnt challenge himself against bigger fighters, but who is still great. Greb has definitely lost to worse middleweights than Monzon, so there is no doubt that Carlos would be right in it. I think they would have a great series. In ability at least Monzon reminds me a bit of a better version of the Gibbons brothers which mean Harry despite his great record would have a real fight on his hands.
Actually while i think of it, can i ask your opinion of how the gibbons brothers series went and whether either has a chance with Harry, with both at their very best.
And of course dont forget Les Darcy who was about the same age and time as Harry, was considered the better fighter while he was alive, and a definite wildcard and unknown that could very easily have a place in these discussions.
is cruel to match any MW with Fitz at his best". Maybe he was right.
I choose Harry Greb because contrary to his reputation he was a "swarmer", Harry was more than that. A swarmer was Henry Armstrong, who never tried to avoid punches by using his legs, thus
absorbing MUCH more punishment than Greb did. Greb besides frenetic and voluminous punching
and unlimited stamina, had a set of wheels that made it very, very dificult for his opponemnts to tag solidly. Gene Tunney, who should know, said" Greb was never in the same place for a seond or less"
and Greb could " never be timed"...At his peak, you couldn't ko him, and you couldn't throw and land more punches, so this is why I have him as the best MW that ever lived...
Yes Les Darcy was a monster in Australia, before his ill-fated trip to America...Would he ,were he to have lived beaten Greb ,both at 160 ? I favor Greb because of his amazing ability to scoot out of danger when necessary...Both great fighters...
Ray Robinson who I regard as the greatest Welterweight,and the fighter with the most tools, was beautiful to see ringside as a WW, BUT Ray NEVER could have as a MW accomplished what the amazing Greb did in tackling and beating much larger men as Tunney, Tommy Gibbons [underated]
Jack Dillon, Battling Levinsky, Tommy Loughran, Kid Norfolk, Maxie Rosenbloom,and also gave a whipping to the prime great Mickey Walker, whe Greb was badly fading in 1925, one year before his tragic death..And this is pertinent B, Greb was fighting with but ONE EYE the last few years of his
amazing career...The courage it took for Greb to enter the Ring , knowing that one blow to his remaining orbit would render him BLIND in front of his opponent and the audience...And he lived with this ANXIETY before EVERY bout...My alltime idol...
