Which is best?

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 22 Aug 2005, 11:23

Boxing is an art that must be practised but some seem blessed with physical talents that are awe inspiring.

If you could choose one of the following physical gifts for a boxer you were managing which would it be?

Hearns' punching power (welter)
Hagler's chin
Leonard's hand speed
Ali's foot speed

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 22 Aug 2005, 11:50

I would Argue that Ali's chin is no less than Hagler's.
But Id go with Ali's footwork first. I think you build from the ground up.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 22 Aug 2005, 11:58

BoxBuzz, please choose who you like to represent the various abilities. I just didn't want to use the same person twice...

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 22 Aug 2005, 12:05

I'd go for a good chin first as you can have speed, power and skill yet if you can't take a punch then you will always be limited in how far you can go.

ShoeShine · Post by **ShoeShine** » 22 Aug 2005, 14:50

I would take hand speed, I have yet to see a fighter excellent hand speed do bad as a pro.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 22 Aug 2005, 15:10

Who's chin, Who's handspeed? is that the idea?

You can be the best and not have a great chin....E.G. RJJ so long as you have foot and hand speed to play keep away.

Hand Speed is just about as important I had a hard time deciding actually.

If I could only have one I take the speed over the power I think.

kingpawn · Post by **kingpawn** » 22 Aug 2005, 21:55

Tough question. I already started and quit on this reply three or four times. Originally I thought I'd take Hagler's chin, since I figured the other three attributes could be taught to some extent. Then, as Buzzy points out, many a great fighter didn't have the best chin.

So then my answer is going to be Leonard's handspeed followed closely by Hearns' power. If you have fast hands, you probably have fast reflexes, too, which is usually synonymous with good defensive skills. Then, if you can bang, well then ...

Foot speed is probably the least important. Ali's foot speed was an artform when he was younger, but he won many a big fight post-Frazier I, when the great foot speed was already beginning to wane.

meade95 · Post by **meade95** » 22 Aug 2005, 22:13

I'd have to go with hand-speed (speed kills - in basically all sports) -

From hand speed can also come power, quickness, etc -

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 22 Aug 2005, 23:06

for some does handspeed come power guys like joe louis, mike tyson, sugar ray robinson.

but other guys dont throw fast punches and have a lot of power liek liston, foreman, marciano, shavers.

but idsay overall speed is the biggest asset. the rule is the way to beat power is with speed. well whats the way to beat speed????

examples: lets say roy jones really does have a glass jaw (which he doesnt) and that tarver finally exposed him because jones aged and lost speed. but jones is one of the all time greats and he basically didnt get hit with a punch for several years. so that means jones could have accomplished all that based on speed which gave him the power. but the fact is, he was so fast he was impossible to hit and thus his chin wasnt a big factor.

but guys like

earnie shavers: incredible power. but didnt have much else. could run a 100 yard dash in 10.64 but couldnt run circles aroudn people in the ring. and he didnt have a succesful career as jones did cause he didnt have the speed in his punches or his body. he would simply have a toe to toe slug out and when he faced a speedy boxer he would get outboxed and lose. when ur a puncher u have to have a chin or u will lose ( w klitschko). when u have the hand and foot speed u dont always need the chin. shavers always had a punchers chance but with the lack of handspeed, he couldnt throw his bombs in combinations like jones could and he couldnt dance away from people when he was hurt.

i think speed kills everything. i put hand and foot speed in one category .

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 23 Aug 2005, 01:28

BoxBuzz wrote:I would Argue that Ali's chin is no less than Hagler's.
But Id go with Ali's footwork first. I think you build from the ground up.

Well, Ali was floored a few times and stopped as well.

Hagler only touched canvas once and I think he slipped or something.

IMO, Hagler's was better.

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 23 Aug 2005, 01:33

If I could only pick one.........I would be in a toss up.

It would be between footspeed and chin, sometimes you could end up going forever without getting hit if you have good footspeed, but you are bound to get caught sooner or later.

I'll have to say footspeed though, it's a pretty good way to avoid brain damage.

Why get hit when you don't have to?

tiredoldngrey · Post by **tiredoldngrey** » 23 Aug 2005, 02:07

Am I allowed to select Benny Leonard's or Ricardo Lopez's boxing IQ? To me, that is the great, and overlooked, intangible that separates good from very good and both of those from great.

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 23 Aug 2005, 02:23

I think speed has to be the most important aspect of a decent fighter, no speed, you are not going to score very well. A fighter is usually born with the chin and power. As for Ali's chin, it has to rank even or better than Marvin's. Ali was fighting in the heavy division...this has to have a greater risk. Grimm, Ali was stopped, this had NOUT to do with his chin by the way...

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 23 Aug 2005, 04:24

tiredoldngrey wrote:Am I allowed to select Benny Leonard's or Ricardo Lopez's boxing IQ? To me, that is the great, and overlooked, intangible that separates good from very good and both of those from great.

I agree but Boxing IQ is learned and developed. I was trying to see which physical attribute was considered most important

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 23 Aug 2005, 04:26

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:for some does handspeed come power guys like joe louis, mike tyson, sugar ray robinson.

but other guys dont throw fast punches and have a lot of power liek liston, foreman, marciano, shavers.

but idsay overall speed is the biggest asset. the rule is the way to beat power is with speed. well whats the way to beat speed????

examples: lets say roy jones really does have a glass jaw (which he doesnt) and that tarver finally exposed him because jones aged and lost speed. but jones is one of the all time greats and he basically didnt get hit with a punch for several years. so that means jones could have accomplished all that based on speed which gave him the power. but the fact is, he was so fast he was impossible to hit and thus his chin wasnt a big factor.

but guys like

earnie shavers: incredible power. but didnt have much else. could run a 100 yard dash in 10.64 but couldnt run circles aroudn people in the ring. and he didnt have a succesful career as jones did cause he didnt have the speed in his punches or his body. he would simply have a toe to toe slug out and when he faced a speedy boxer he would get outboxed and lose. when ur a puncher u have to have a chin or u will lose ( w klitschko). when u have the hand and foot speed u dont always need the chin. shavers always had a punchers chance but with the lack of handspeed, he couldnt throw his bombs in combinations like jones could and he couldnt dance away from people when he was hurt.

i think speed kills everything. i put hand and foot speed in one category .

But I don't think this is a fair comparison. You're not really comparing like for like. Earnie could bang but he was quite ponderous and he wasn't the most skillful. RJJ had great speed but he was also a decent puncher and was more skilled. Really we're looking for someone who just has speed but no punch and a chin on a par with Shavers. What about Howard Davis Jr?

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 23 Aug 2005, 13:18

POWER.

You always have a chance of winning with KO power.

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 23 Aug 2005, 14:27

walshb wrote:I think speed has to be the most important aspect of a decent fighter, no speed, you are not going to score very well. A fighter is usually born with the chin and power. As for Ali's chin, it has to rank even or better than Marvin's. Ali was fighting in the heavy division...this has to have a greater risk. Grimm, Ali was stopped, this had NOUT to do with his chin by the way...

I'm sure we are going by pound for pound and not actually comparing Ali's chin to Hagler's.

If that was the case then we would not have Thomas Hearns on there for power.

Hagler took some shots from the hardest punchers in the game without going down.

Ali on the other hand was dropped a few times by nobodys.

I definitely take Hagler's chin over Ali's.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 23 Aug 2005, 14:34

So when Wepner knocked Ali down that had something to do with his chin?
Or when the Holmes fight was stopped? I think for the most part what he experienced were flash knockdowns more to do with balance than chin.

Although their may be some exceptions Frazier and maybe Cooper?

Not sure but hey Hagler and Ali both had rugged whiskers.

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 23 Aug 2005, 14:56

BoxBuzz wrote:So when Wepner knocked Ali down that had something to do with his chin?
Or when the Holmes fight was stopped? I think for the most part what he experienced were flash knockdowns more to do with balance than chin.

Although their may be some exceptions Frazier and maybe Cooper?

Not sure but hey Hagler and Ali both had rugged whiskers.

Maybe not the stoppage.

But I see it as him getting rattled by Frazier is equal to Hagler and Mugabi, Hagler never went down though.

kingpawn · Post by **kingpawn** » 23 Aug 2005, 15:51

A lot of people don't realize that what happened in the Wepner fight was that Ali's foot was stepped on. It's not shown on the version that plays on ESPN Classics practically every week. However, in the original broadcast of the fight (e.g. ABC's Wide World of Sports, or whatever program it was that televised it), there was a camera angle that showed the fighters' feet getting tangled.

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 23 Aug 2005, 16:04

kingpawn wrote:A lot of people don't realize that what happened in the Wepner fight was that Ali's foot was stepped on. It's not shown on the version that plays on ESPN Classics practically every week. However, in the original broadcast of the fight (e.g. ABC's Wide World of Sports, or whatever program it was that televised it), there was a camera angle that showed the fighters' feet getting tangled.

Well I never did bring up the Wepner knockdown. But Ali has been dropped from punches before.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 23 Aug 2005, 17:07

Yep but not all knockdowns have to do with the chin giving way.

Off Balance flash knockdowns are not "near knockouts" very different than that momentary dizziness that precedes or even is part of a very brief unconcious state. And of course a liver shot would not be a "chin"related KD

Am I remembering correctly from Ali's writing the only time he felt he was on the verge of a KO was with Foreman? Though youd'd never known it at the time. The others including the Frazier shot had to do with balance not the "twilite" of a near KO. At least that's the way I'm remembering it. Cooper, Jones Wepner Frazier all had him down I think.

But I will give you that Hagler never gave an inch in that regard so I understand why you hold him in high regard. Does Monzon fall in that catagory as well? Can't remember if I saw him decked or not. Think either of them could take the shots delilvered by Foreman or Frazier?

I'm not answering just questioning.

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 23 Aug 2005, 17:12

BoxBuzz wrote:Yep but not all knockdowns have to do with the chin giving way.

Off Balance flash knockdowns are not "near knockouts" very different than that momentary dizziness that precedes or even is part of a very brief unconcious state. And of course a liver shot would not be a "chin"related KD

Am I remembering correctly from Ali's writing the only time he felt he was on the verge of a KO was with Foreman? Though youd'd never known it at the time. The others including the Frazier shot had to do with balance not the "twilite" of a near KO. At least that's the way I'm remembering it. Cooper, Jones Wepner Frazier all had him down I think.

But I will give you that Hagler never gave an inch in that regard so I understand why you hold him in high regard. Does Monzon fall in that catagory as well? Can't remember if I saw him decked or not. Think either of them could take the shots delilvered by Foreman or Frazier?

I'm not answering just questioning.

They probably couldn't take shots from Foreman or Frazier, I'm sure that it was a p4p type of discussion otherwise Hearns would not be in there for power.

jwizard · Post by **jwizard** » 23 Aug 2005, 22:59

This may be dumb question but....I see people comparing the chins of Hagler and Ali....

I know that size matters when comparing POWER..since the added weight will give you more to put behind a punch but....

Does a person's CHIN improve with weight?

Say Hagler and Ali had matching chins....would Hagler be hurt more by an Earnie Shavers shot than Ali would by that same shot just because Hagler weighed 30-50 pounds less? The only difference I could see is that the heavier guy may have a stronger neck and not get as much of a jolt from a shot..but other than that I don't really see how weight would play a fact in absorbing a HEAD shot...

Rory McCloskey · Post by **Rory McCloskey** » 23 Aug 2005, 23:52

i would have to say power... if u can knock anyone out at any time with 1 punch, then u are never out of a fight, and having extremely great power lets u focus on boxing techniques and u can develop quiker feet and faster hands, but the ability to punch really powerfully is usually a natural thing.