Sonny Liston's punching power

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 23 Aug 2005, 17:15

how high do you guys rate it???

i think he was one of the hardest hitting heavyweights of all time in his prime. but i tend to see peple rate foreman, and shavers power over liston. and liston had three punches that he could KO you with, a left hook, right hand, and JAB. i think if liston had better hand speed, he would have been the hardest hitting heavyweight, but he doesnt. his hand speed was slow and later in his career before the 2nd ali fight, it became so slow tthat his camp paid the sparring partners to make liston look good just to give him some confidence.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 23 Aug 2005, 17:23

I'd put Listons power right up there with the top Heavies of all time.
Have to disagree with you about his speed... from the fights I've seen of him against Williams, Machen, and whitehurst he had very swift hands for someone of his size. Look at him against Patterson, its his hand speed as well as his power that Patterson couldn't deal with. Even against Ali Liston wasn't really slow its just that Ali was so fast. All through his career Liston had good handspeed and its this as well as the power itself that made him so successful. His jab was one of the best I've seen... I have a '58 article in which Marciano says that Liston has the best jab since Louis and tips Liston to be the next heavyweight champ.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 23 Aug 2005, 17:45

can u send me a link to the article?

john2345 · Post by **john2345** » 24 Aug 2005, 05:12

Yes, I'm with Silkov on this one! Liston had great hand speed and his jab was a real punch, not just a "pawing" motion as with many others, particularly today's heavys.

People often point to the Machen fight as suggesting that Liston somehow lacked skill and was out-thought by Machen (although Liston won, of course) - but when I saw that fight on ESPN a few years back (never having seen it before) I was amazed by the speed and skill that Liston showed. I saw another clip of him blasting out someone (don't know who it was) with a cluster of punches - all delivered as the opponent slid down, and all landed dead on target.

I admit to a certain bias in that I grew up thinking that Liston was one of the all time great heavyweights, and I still do. I base that view not on the way he took out Patterson, but on the displays he gave as he fought and beat every other ranked heavyweight while he waited for the title shot.

If he hadn't been so reviled by the press - and thus always portrayed as the "bad guy" - history may have been kinder to him. Hopefully it eventually will be

J

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 24 Aug 2005, 05:58

john2345 wrote:Yes, I'm with Silkov on this one! Liston had great hand speed and his jab was a real punch, not just a "pawing" motion as with many others, particularly today's heavys.

People often point to the Machen fight as suggesting that Liston somehow lacked skill and was out-thought by Machen (although Liston won, of course) - but when I saw that fight on ESPN a few years back (never having seen it before) I was amazed by the speed and skill that Liston showed. I saw another clip of him blasting out someone (don't know who it was) with a cluster of punches - all delivered as the opponent slid down, and all landed dead on target.

I admit to a certain bias in that I grew up thinking that Liston was one of the all time great heavyweights, and I still do. I base that view not on the way he took out Patterson, but on the displays he gave as he fought and beat every other ranked heavyweight while he waited for the title shot.

If he hadn't been so reviled by the press - and thus always portrayed as the "bad guy" - history may have been kinder to him. Hopefully it eventually will be

J

Theres a lot been made about Liston being a slow lumbering bear type fighter but this is all a myth. Liston while no Ali speed wise was quite nimble footwise and very good at cutting off the ring and his handspeed as has already been mentioned was excellent. I think it was only after the Ali fights that this myth of Listons slowness came about.
Many of the articles I have on Liston in the late 50s and early 60s talk about his speed for such a big man.

Sherlock · Post by **Sherlock** » 24 Aug 2005, 09:26

One punch power I would put him behind Foreman, Shavers, Baer, and guys like that, but overall punching ability (ability to put punches together and take guys out) I'd put him second to Joe Louis.

And its been covered pretty well already, but Liston did not have slow hands. Watch his fights with Patterson, he is just as quick as Patterson. And you have to remember he was at least in his thirties when he fought Ali and hand speed doesn't stay with you forever.

I truly believe ability wise he could have been up their with Louis or Johnson in the all time greats, but was mentally fragile (though I don't believe he was a bully figure like Tyson) and that hurt him.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 24 Aug 2005, 10:44

Sherlock wrote:One punch power I would put him behind Foreman, Shavers, Baer, and guys like that, but overall punching ability (ability to put punches together and take guys out) I'd put him second to Joe Louis.

And its been covered pretty well already, but Liston did not have slow hands. Watch his fights with Patterson, he is just as quick as Patterson. And you have to remember he was at least in his thirties when he fought Ali and hand speed doesn't stay with you forever.

I truly believe ability wise he could have been up their with Louis or Johnson in the all time greats, but was mentally fragile (though I don't believe he was a bully figure like Tyson) and that hurt him.

As far as being mentally fragile I think that only showed up against Ali... Liston just could not belive that Ali was so fast and so strong I think.
On the other hand he showed heart to fight on against Marty Marshall with a broken jaw, he beat Williams in their first fight after having his nose busted and he took a late rounds shellacking late in his career from Martin to show that he wasn't simply a front runner lacking heart.

Sherlock · Post by **Sherlock** » 24 Aug 2005, 13:00

silkov wrote: As far as being mentally fragile I think that only showed up against Ali... Liston just could not belive that Ali was so fast and so strong I think.
On the other hand he showed heart to fight on against Marty Marshall with a broken jaw, he beat Williams in their first fight after having his nose busted and he took a late rounds shellacking late in his career from Martin to show that he wasn't simply a front runner lacking heart.

I don't think he lacked heart, just that he seemed emotionally upset. He never seemed happy inside or outside the ring and the rumours of heavy drug use seems to me like he was depressed. He never got the fanfare he wanted and was, and sadly, will be remembered by the average fan as an angry bear-like figure.

I don't see Liston as a bully or quitter that some experts and fans have tried to label him as. I think he was and is very underrated by the boxing public.