Middleweight Top 10

[klompton]

I agree about McTigue. Fullmer would dominate him. I have no doubt.

It is true I dont like Fullmer, but that is because of what I see, not some vendetta.

I would not have said Fullmer-Basilio 2 was a bad decision. Fullmer dominated Basilio. The point was that Fullmer had a stoppage on his record that he didnt deserve which makes it look glossier than it really was. Just like all of those draws and gift decisions. Its pretty hard to name a lot of fighters who had three draws in title fights which he clearly deserved to lose.

[raylawpc]

From memory, Dick Ellis, Bill Slavin and Mick Dooley are good heavyweights who were beaten by the middleight Fitz. The results of Paddy Slavin and Tom Lees fights are not ever listed anywhere but it seems clear that at the very least, Fitz didnt lose these figths and he certainly wasnt over the middleweight limit for them. Boxrec, seems to list the Ruhlin fight as a middleweight result, although this would seem doubtful if their other weights are correct. Quite a few of fitz other wins were over heavyweights, including one win over the South African Heavyweight champion (whose name escapes me at the moment) and I am fairly sure that Joe Godfrey was the World Coloured Heavyweight champion when Fitz KOd him as a middleweight. In reality, there was no weigh in recorded for most of these fights and we are guessing which fights were and werent over the limit but one thing is for sure, Fitz was capable of trimming down to the middleweight limit if he had to (same goes for McTigue and Greb if they had to). Fitzsimmons, by the way, weighed 158 lbs against Corbett according to the only person who actually weighed him for the fight that we know of, although there are quite a few who guessed by eye that he might weight 5 or 6 lbs more than this. They could have had better eyes back in the day and been able to guess weights more accurately by looks, but i tend to think it is better to go with the estimate by the person who actually weighed him, even if that person is biased (although is there a real reason for him to be biased in relation to weights, one way or the other).

1. You are thinking of George Godfrey. Joe Godfrey was a run-of-the-mill middleweight.

2. The idea Fitz weighed 158 v. Corbett is a myth perpetrated by Fitz (you know, the same guy who told us he had 300 fights - 200 of which we have not found a trace of evidence). The person who weighed him became his biographer and friend.

George Godfrey (the coloured champion) campained as Joe Godfrey at the time that Fitz fought Joe Godfrey. There was though apparently a middleweight Joe Godfrey (a white fighter from philadelphia from memory) as well, so it isnt 100% clear, although i have seen mention of Fitz defeating the coloured champion also. It is a little unclear and could go either way but i think it more likely than not that it was the coloured champion.

We have been around the Fitz argument. Fitz knew what he weighed and he said he weighed 158. Some papers reported him below 160, some above. none more so than a couple of pounds. no one would ahve known better than Fitz, i doubt he got that wrong. NOt much point in boring everyone with teh same argument, when neither knows and there is only one definite known first hand source, isnt there.

As for the 300 fights, i think it crazy to think that there were no unreported fights. If you think that he only fought a couple of fights in his first couple of years in Timaru for example, i really think you are kidding himself. From memory there is a tour of Rockhampton which remains unrecorded. And again, you surely dont think that their were not a lot of fights unrecorded at Foleys Hotel. Obviously it is hard to know what were exhibitions and what were real fights. As for the actual number, well it is probably most likely that fitz himself didnt keep exact counts. However it is interesting to note that without counting them all up there seems pretty close to 300 fights (probably more) listed on his record at Cyberboxing Zone and they left off a lot of "exhibitions" that are regularly discovered. I dare say that quite a few of those exhibitions were indeed considered real fights even if Fitz probably did ease up from time to time. I do think the number is nothing more than estimate that was probalby a little high.

If you think he fought George Godfrey, there is a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you. And yeah, Fitz had absolutely NO motive to claim he weighed 158 pounds when he fought Corbett. And . . . you really think he had over TWO HUNDRED (!) unreported fights? Like I said, there's this bridge in Brooklyn I have for sale . . . (P.S., most of the fights listed on the cyberboxing record ARE exhibitions . . . About that bridge . . .)

[Brute]

22. Jack Dempsey

Ezzard,
I am quite interested to hear how the Non pareil ranks at 23, ahead of Bob Fitzsimmons.

Bob Fitzsimmons KOed Tom Sharkey in a fight billed as for the Heavyweight title but was disqualified by brothel keeping back shooter Wyatt Earp. You don't argue with the referee when he is pointing a revolver at you.

[Boilermaker]

1. You are thinking of George Godfrey. Joe Godfrey was a run-of-the-mill middleweight.

2. The idea Fitz weighed 158 v. Corbett is a myth perpetrated by Fitz (you know, the same guy who told us he had 300 fights - 200 of which we have not found a trace of evidence). The person who weighed him became his biographer and friend.

George Godfrey (the coloured champion) campained as Joe Godfrey at the time that Fitz fought Joe Godfrey. There was though apparently a middleweight Joe Godfrey (a white fighter from philadelphia from memory) as well, so it isnt 100% clear, although i have seen mention of Fitz defeating the coloured champion also. It is a little unclear and could go either way but i think it more likely than not that it was the coloured champion.

We have been around the Fitz argument. Fitz knew what he weighed and he said he weighed 158. Some papers reported him below 160, some above. none more so than a couple of pounds. no one would ahve known better than Fitz, i doubt he got that wrong. NOt much point in boring everyone with teh same argument, when neither knows and there is only one definite known first hand source, isnt there.

As for the 300 fights, i think it crazy to think that there were no unreported fights. If you think that he only fought a couple of fights in his first couple of years in Timaru for example, i really think you are kidding himself. From memory there is a tour of Rockhampton which remains unrecorded. And again, you surely dont think that their were not a lot of fights unrecorded at Foleys Hotel. Obviously it is hard to know what were exhibitions and what were real fights. As for the actual number, well it is probably most likely that fitz himself didnt keep exact counts. However it is interesting to note that without counting them all up there seems pretty close to 300 fights (probably more) listed on his record at Cyberboxing Zone and they left off a lot of "exhibitions" that are regularly discovered. I dare say that quite a few of those exhibitions were indeed considered real fights even if Fitz probably did ease up from time to time. I do think the number is nothing more than estimate that was probalby a little high.

If you think he fought George Godfrey, there is a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you. And yeah, Fitz had absolutely NO motive to claim he weighed 158 pounds when he fought Corbett. And . . . you really think he had over TWO HUNDRED (!) unreported fights? Like I said, there's this bridge in Brooklyn I have for sale . . . (P.S., most of the fights listed on the cyberboxing record ARE exhibitions . . . About that bridge . . .)

you already sold me that bridge didnt you?

If you go to CBZ, Fitz is recorded as having 400 fights up to the time of the corbett fight. Obviously many of these were not real fights, but many would have been also. Often the word exhibition was used to get around the law. Fitz had plenty of fights. Does it really matter whether it was 100, 200 or 300? I doubt he would lose on experience by the time he won his first world title.

[raylawpc]

George Godfrey (the coloured champion) campained as Joe Godfrey at the time that Fitz fought Joe Godfrey. There was though apparently a middleweight Joe Godfrey (a white fighter from philadelphia from memory) as well, so it isnt 100% clear, although i have seen mention of Fitz defeating the coloured champion also. It is a little unclear and could go either way but i think it more likely than not that it was the coloured champion.

We have been around the Fitz argument. Fitz knew what he weighed and he said he weighed 158. Some papers reported him below 160, some above. none more so than a couple of pounds. no one would ahve known better than Fitz, i doubt he got that wrong. NOt much point in boring everyone with teh same argument, when neither knows and there is only one definite known first hand source, isnt there.

As for the 300 fights, i think it crazy to think that there were no unreported fights. If you think that he only fought a couple of fights in his first couple of years in Timaru for example, i really think you are kidding himself. From memory there is a tour of Rockhampton which remains unrecorded. And again, you surely dont think that their were not a lot of fights unrecorded at Foleys Hotel. Obviously it is hard to know what were exhibitions and what were real fights. As for the actual number, well it is probably most likely that fitz himself didnt keep exact counts. However it is interesting to note that without counting them all up there seems pretty close to 300 fights (probably more) listed on his record at Cyberboxing Zone and they left off a lot of "exhibitions" that are regularly discovered. I dare say that quite a few of those exhibitions were indeed considered real fights even if Fitz probably did ease up from time to time. I do think the number is nothing more than estimate that was probalby a little high.

If you think he fought George Godfrey, there is a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you. And yeah, Fitz had absolutely NO motive to claim he weighed 158 pounds when he fought Corbett. And . . . you really think he had over TWO HUNDRED (!) unreported fights? Like I said, there's this bridge in Brooklyn I have for sale . . . (P.S., most of the fights listed on the cyberboxing record ARE exhibitions . . . About that bridge . . .)

you already sold me that bridge didnt you?

If you go to CBZ, Fitz is recorded as having 400 fights up to the time of the corbett fight. Obviously many of these were not real fights, but many would have been also. Often the word exhibition was used to get around the law. Fitz had plenty of fights. Does it really matter whether it was 100, 200 or 300? I doubt he would lose on experience by the time he won his first world title.

I've been to the CBZ. There is a big difference between an exhibition in your training camp with a sparring partner (you know, your employee?) and a real competitive fight.

[Boilermaker]

If you think he fought George Godfrey, there is a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you. And yeah, Fitz had absolutely NO motive to claim he weighed 158 pounds when he fought Corbett. And . . . you really think he had over TWO HUNDRED (!) unreported fights? Like I said, there's this bridge in Brooklyn I have for sale . . . (P.S., most of the fights listed on the cyberboxing record ARE exhibitions . . . About that bridge . . .)

you already sold me that bridge didnt you?

If you go to CBZ, Fitz is recorded as having 400 fights up to the time of the corbett fight. Obviously many of these were not real fights, but many would have been also. Often the word exhibition was used to get around the law. Fitz had plenty of fights. Does it really matter whether it was 100, 200 or 300? I doubt he would lose on experience by the time he won his first world title.

I've been to the CBZ. There is a big difference between an exhibition in your training camp with a sparring partner (you know, your employee?) and a real competitive fight.

True, but is there a big difference between a fight called an exhibition to stop the parties from being arrested and real competive fight.?

the reality is we dont really know how many fights Fitz had. We do know though that he had more than what is generally known. 300 certainly seems a stretch and very unlikely but not impossible. I presume that there were several unrecorded tournaments where several opponents were fought in a night was not too uncommon. We know virtually nothing about the NZ days, and it is pretty much accepted that unrecorded fights were happening in Foleys hotel on a nightly basis. We just dont know, though as i said, does it really matter. It isnt as if the wins were over big names or anything, or that Fitz had only a small number of known fights.

[raylawpc]

you already sold me that bridge didnt you?

If you go to CBZ, Fitz is recorded as having 400 fights up to the time of the corbett fight. Obviously many of these were not real fights, but many would have been also. Often the word exhibition was used to get around the law. Fitz had plenty of fights. Does it really matter whether it was 100, 200 or 300? I doubt he would lose on experience by the time he won his first world title.

I've been to the CBZ. There is a big difference between an exhibition in your training camp with a sparring partner (you know, your employee?) and a real competitive fight.

True, but is there a big difference between a fight called an exhibition to stop the parties from being arrested and real competive fight.?

the reality is we dont really know how many fights Fitz had. We do know though that he had more than what is generally known. 300 certainly seems a stretch and very unlikely but not impossible. I presume that there were several unrecorded tournaments where several opponents were fought in a night was not too uncommon. We know virtually nothing about the NZ days, and it is pretty much accepted that unrecorded fights were happening in Foleys hotel on a nightly basis. We just dont know, though as i said, does it really matter. It isnt as if the wins were over big names or anything, or that Fitz had only a small number of known fights.

You are missing the point: The point is that Fitz said he had 300 fights. (He didn't.) He gave two or three different stories about how he became a boxer. He claimed he knocked out Herbert Slade (All the evidence shows he didn't.) Fitz had a propensity to stretch the truth to his advantage. I'm not willing to take Fitz's word that he weighed 158 for Corbett.

[Boilermaker]

Wanted to comment on Fitzsimmons, Greb, and McTigue at middleweight.
Many of Greb and Mctigues wins over lightheavyweights and heavyweights took place when they were well over the middlweight limit. All of Fitzsimmons wins of note over heavyweights or light heavyweights were when he himself was well over the middleweight limit.

When a fighter is 4, 5,6 pounds or more over 160, he is not really a middleweight at that time.
It should count when rating Fitz, Greb or McTigue in a pound for pound sense, or if you are rating them at lightheavyweight, or even heavyweight if they beat a heavyweight. However, these wins should not be factored in when rating them as a middleweight.

From memory, Dick Ellis, Bill Slavin and Mick Dooley are good heavyweights who were beaten by the middleight Fitz. The results of Paddy Slavin and Tom Lees fights are not ever listed anywhere but it seems clear that at the very least, Fitz didnt lose these figths and he certainly wasnt over the middleweight limit for them. Boxrec, seems to list the Ruhlin fight as a middleweight result, although this would seem doubtful if their other weights are correct. Quite a few of fitz other wins were over heavyweights, including one win over the South African Heavyweight champion (whose name escapes me at the moment) and I am fairly sure that Joe Godfrey was the World Coloured Heavyweight champion when Fitz KOd him as a middleweight. In reality, there was no weigh in recorded for most of these fights and we are guessing which fights were and werent over the limit but one thing is for sure, Fitz was capable of trimming down to the middleweight limit if he had to (same goes for McTigue and Greb if they had to). Fitzsimmons, by the way, weighed 158 lbs against Corbett according to the only person who actually weighed him for the fight that we know of, although there are quite a few who guessed by eye that he might weight 5 or 6 lbs more than this. They could have had better eyes back in the day and been able to guess weights more accurately by looks, but i tend to think it is better to go with the estimate by the person who actually weighed him, even if that person is biased (although is there a real reason for him to be biased in relation to weights, one way or the other).

1. You are thinking of George Godfrey. Joe Godfrey was a run-of-the-mill middleweight.

2. The idea Fitz weighed 158 v. Corbett is a myth perpetrated by Fitz (you know, the same guy who told us he had 300 fights - 200 of which we have not found a trace of evidence). The person who weighed him became his biographer and friend.

I cant remember if this was the thread where you asked for this or not, but here is one of those next day contemporary reports of Fitz weight being below 160, that you asked for.

http://fultonhistory.com/Newspaper%209/ ... ehtml&.pdf

When i get time, i will find some joe godfrey (world coloured champion) articles. By the way, as a side issue, did you know that Joe Godfrey isnt the only world coloured champion that Bob Fitzsimmons fought and dominated?