Greatest Achievements of the 1980s

[SaadOffTheDeck]

That wasn't Leonard's first fight at Middleweight. The rest of your points are valid. Then again, the decisive nature of the fights shouldn't be disregarded. Leonard didn't beat the dog shit out of Hagler.

[Giancarlo]

No doubt about that. I still think Ali was better after the layoff.

Are you saying you think the version of Ali who fought Frazier the first time was better than the Ali who fought Zora Folley?

[Giancarlo]

i can see why he said that. i mean physically as far as speed and reflexes went ali was better before the lay-off, but, ali after the lay-off showed a little more toughness and heart. it's hard to say. it is a shame that that lay-off occurred. maybe he would have ended his career sooner had that lay-off not happened.

I can understand what Saad said and also the points you make Barry.

And I agree to a certain extent.

I am asking about two specific points in time though, not for an overall asessment of the two distinct bodies of work.

[Goodnight, Irene]

well i will say that the ali who fought frazier proved more than the one who fought zolley. hard to say which was better.

Also muddying the waters is the quality of foe.

A washed-up Folley is not a prime Frazier, to put it mildly.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

No doubt about that. I still think Ali was better after the layoff.

Are you saying you think the version of Ali who fought Frazier the first time was better than the Ali who fought Zora Folley?

Yes, Ali, great as he was, gets a pass for a performance that I view as a positive. I don't think there was a day in his life that he would have walked out of MSG with his arms raised. The craziest thing to me is that the big time accomplishment of stopping Bonavena is shoved aside by his fans for fear of crediting Frazier for what he did, whip Muhammad Ali at his very best.

[Giancarlo]

well i will say that the ali who fought frazier proved more than the one who fought zolley. hard to say which was better.

Also muddying the waters is the quality of foe.

A washed-up Folley is not a prime Frazier, to put it mildly.

I take your point.

However, can I assume that you don't think the Ali of '67 would have had a better chance with Frazier in the FOTC?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

well i will say that the ali who fought frazier proved more than the one who fought zolley. hard to say which was better.

Also muddying the waters is the quality of foe.

A washed-up Folley is not a prime Frazier, to put it mildly.

I take your point.

However, can I assume that you don't think the Ali of '67 would have had a better chance with Frazier in the FOTC?

Not aimed at me, but I am quite sure the Ali of 67 couldn't have endured what the Ali did in MSG. Could he have prevented it? I don't think so. But even I am not so arrogant to say for sure. He was faster before the layoff, but I have always thought he was more durable after. And do be frank, on that one night, I think it would have taken 10 Ali's to beat Frazier.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I find it difficult to say.

A lot of people subscribe to the idea Ali was physically tougher (which would always be important when battling Frazier) after the lay-off, and I think maybe Id agree with that...but on the other hand, he seemed a little faster and sharper reflexively in 1966-67 (IMO, his peak), so its hard to be sure.

One thing I will state is I seem to view the FOTC as a lot closer, scoring-wise, than many people.

[Giancarlo]

No doubt about that. I still think Ali was better after the layoff.

Are you saying you think the version of Ali who fought Frazier the first time was better than the Ali who fought Zora Folley?

Yes, Ali, great as he was, gets a pass for a performance that I view as a positive. I don't think there was a day in his life that he would have walked out of MSG with his arms raised. The craziest thing to me is that the big time accomplishment of stopping Bonavena is shoved aside by his fans for fear of crediting Frazier for what he did, whip Muhammad Ali at his very best.

Stopping Bonavena was a great result; I'm sure it helped convince Ali (if he ever needed any convincing) that he was back to his best and ready for Frazier.

My feeling is that he got it wrong in that he badly underestimated Joe and he wasn't really ready for someone that good.

Still, he put up up a creditable showing against an excellent champ, and I suspect it taught him a lot that he didn't know about himself. And about Joe. This surely helped him get back to the top.

Both guys gained from that fight in the bigger scheme of things.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Also muddying the waters is the quality of foe.

A washed-up Folley is not a prime Frazier, to put it mildly.

I take your point.

However, can I assume that you don't think the Ali of '67 would have had a better chance with Frazier in the FOTC?

Not aimed at me, but I am quite sure the Ali of 67 couldn't have endured what the Ali did in MSG. Could he have prevented it? I don't think so. But even I am not so arrogant to say for sure. He was faster before the layoff, but I have always thought he was more durable after. And do be frank, on that one night, I think it would have taken 10 Ali's to beat Frazier.

See, I agree with everything here, except the last part. Its a minority view, but I really thought in scoring, Frazier only just nicked the bout --- a fact hidden by his sweeping domination in the final third of the fight, but I had Ali positively drubbing him early.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I take your point.

However, can I assume that you don't think the Ali of '67 would have had a better chance with Frazier in the FOTC?

Not aimed at me, but I am quite sure the Ali of 67 couldn't have endured what the Ali did in MSG. Could he have prevented it? I don't think so. But even I am not so arrogant to say for sure. He was faster before the layoff, but I have always thought he was more durable after. And do be frank, on that one night, I think it would have taken 10 Ali's to beat Frazier.

See, I agree with everything here, except the last part. Its a minority view, but I really thought in scoring, Frazier only just nicked the bout --- a fact hidden by his sweeping domination in the final third of the fight, but I had Ali positively drubbing him early.

I had Ali winning early too, he looked as good as I have ever seen him. It was more what Frazier did than what Ali couldn't do. 9-6 for me

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Are you saying you think the version of Ali who fought Frazier the first time was better than the Ali who fought Zora Folley?

Yes, Ali, great as he was, gets a pass for a performance that I view as a positive. I don't think there was a day in his life that he would have walked out of MSG with his arms raised. The craziest thing to me is that the big time accomplishment of stopping Bonavena is shoved aside by his fans for fear of crediting Frazier for what he did, whip Muhammad Ali at his very best.

Stopping Bonavena was a great result; I'm sure it helped convince Ali (if he ever needed any convincing) that he was back to his best and ready for Frazier.

My feeling is that he got it wrong in that he badly underestimated Joe and he wasn't really ready for someone that good.

Still, he put up up a creditable showing against an excellent champ, and I suspect it taught him a lot that he didn't know about himself. And about Joe. This surely helped him get back to the top.

Both guys gained from that fight in the bigger scheme of things.

Frazier fought the fight of his life and Ali had another level. That happens in sports. All I'm saying is the minions that label Ali's victory over a useless Cleveland Williams as his greatest performance need some smelling salts. He was much better in defeat than he ever was there.

[Goodnight, Irene]

What would you say was Ali's best effort 1960-67, Saad?

If Ali was better after the lay-off, what would you say were his prime years? 1970 to when?

[Boilermaker]

Roberto Duran over Ray Leonard has to rate a mention, doesnt it?

[NazNaci1]

Roberto Duran over Ray Leonard has to rate a mention, doesnt it?

To be fair, I think Ezzard lists that amongst his inital selection

[yancey]

It is utter nonsense to postulate that Ali "badly underestimated" Frazier going into the FOTC.

Ali, along with his camp, knew damn good and well he was facing the fight of his life that night.

I have long maintained that Ali fought a great, great fight that night. I was a bit surprised he went the distance when I heard the result. The fact that he went the distance was great testimony to his tremendous toughness.

I only wish that Frazier would have been at HIS BEST that night. He had health issues going into that fight, later disclosed. It always seemed to me that Frazier seemed a bit quicker around the Ellis fight and a little before. He showed his best bobbing-weaving movement in the first Quarry fight, imo. I always wondered if the broken ankle he suffered sometime after the Ellis fight was a bit of a hindrance.

Haven't seen the fight in a long time, but 9-6 seems about right.

[Giancarlo]

It is utter nonsense to postulate that Ali "badly underestimated" Frazier going into the FOTC.

Utter nonsense, eh?

For a 60 year old man, you still don't appear to understand that what we are discussing here are mainly opinions.

[Giancarlo]

Even Frazier believed Ali underestimated him going into FOTC.

http://www.nbcuniversalarchives.com/nbc ... 627_001.do

No need to apologise Yancey. After 60 years of knowing everything, it will be way too hard for you to get down off your pedestal.

[yancey]

It is utter nonsense to postulate that Ali "badly underestimated" Frazier going into the FOTC.

Utter nonsense, eh?

For a 60 year old man, you still don't appear to understand that what we are discussing here are mainly opinions.

Is that what you have been giving?

Opinions, eh?

Well, I suggest you take your "opinions" + about 10 bucks to the nearest IHOP. That might get you a few pancakes and a cup of coffee. You probably will have to wash dishes for a hour or two afterwards, but I suspect you are use to that.

That is about how much your "opinions" are worth.

p.s. I'm not 60 yet, but you are still an ass clown.

Have a nice day.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Fight him, Giancarlo! Fight him good!

[Giancarlo]

Oh dear...

[Giancarlo]

Fight him?

He's 60 years old and in a wheelchair.

Anyway, he's too busy thinking up an excuse for Joe saying Ali underestimated him.

[yancey]

Fight him, Giancarlo! Fight him good!

Nah, Connie can't fight.

She just needs to go adjust her tampon and she'll be okay for a while.

[Giancarlo]

Tampons?

Really, for a 60 year old man you do come across as rather immature.

Do you get out much?

[yancey]

Tampons?

Really, for a 60 year old man you do come across as rather immature.

Do you get out much?

A whole lot more than you probably do, bud.

Plus, I have a car.