Best Heavyweights of the 1950s

[Boilermaker]

I will try something a little bit different with this one. Same rules, Results based only. But, this list is not finished, so others are able to offer up possibilities of the boxers that have been left out. I must say, it is surprising just how competitive this decade was. Which other fighters must be on the list.


1. Rocky Marciano – W Walcott, Charles, Moore, Cockell
2. Walcott – W Charles, Johnson L Marciano
3. Charles – W Louis, maxim, bivins L Walcott, Marciano, Valdes
4. Johansen – W Patterson, Machen, Neuhaus
5. Patterson – W Moore L Johansen
6. Moore – W Johnson, Valdes, Baker, Maxim, Bivins, Johnson L Paterson, Marciano
7. Machen – W Valdes, Maxim, Baker L Johansen D Folley
8. Valdes - W Charles, Neuhaus L Machen, Folley, Satterfield, Baker, Liston
9. Cockell – W La Starza, Mathews L Marciano, Valdes
10. Bivins – W Henry L Charles, Harrison, baker, Louis, Harrison
11. Mathews – W Layne L Cockell, Marciano

[Goodnight, Irene]

If you cant spell their names, you shouldnt be analysing their careers.

[Boilermaker]

If you cant spell their names, you shouldnt be analysing their careers.

Maybe you could correct the spelling then. Should be a lot of fun.

[Goodnight, Irene]

It would be the only accurate thing in these threads of yours.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

It would be the only accurate thing in these threads of yours.

Indeed, what a fool.

[Ambling Alp]

I will try something a little bit different with this one. Same rules, Results based only. But, this list is not finished, so others are able to offer up possibilities of the boxers that have been left out. I must say, it is surprising just how competitive this decade was. Which other fighters must be on the list.


1. Rocky Marciano – W Walcott, Charles, Moore, Cockell
2. Walcott – W Charles, Johnson L Marciano
3. Charles – W Louis, maxim, bivins L Walcott, Marciano, Valdes
4. Johansen – W Patterson, Machen, Neuhaus
5. Patterson – W Moore L Johansen
6. Moore – W Johnson, Valdes, Baker, Maxim, Bivins, Johnson L Paterson, Marciano
7. Machen – W Valdes, Maxim, Baker L Johansen D Folley
8. Valdes - W Charles, Neuhaus L Machen, Folley, Satterfield, Baker, Liston
9. Cockell – W La Starza, Mathews L Marciano, Valdes
10. Bivins – W Henry L Charles, Harrison, baker, Louis, Harrison
11. Mathews – W Layne L Cockell, Marciano

It is kind and odd decade. You have guys like Marciano, Charles and Walcott in the early part, then Liston, Patterson, Johansson take over in the latter part.

I think one guy that has to belong is Harold Johnson. He had wins over Charles and Valdes; as well as guys like Marshall,Whitehurst, and Satterfield.
Perhaps Rex Layne as well. He had some losses, but did beat both Charles and Walcott.

[yancey]

Does any heavyweight, on his best night in the '50s, beat Sonny Liston at his best in the '50s?

[Goodnight, Irene]

Does any heavyweight, on his best night in the '50s, beat Sonny Liston at his best in the '50s?

Probably not, would be my estimation.

[Boilermaker]

I will try something a little bit different with this one. Same rules, Results based only. But, this list is not finished, so others are able to offer up possibilities of the boxers that have been left out. I must say, it is surprising just how competitive this decade was. Which other fighters must be on the list.


1. Rocky Marciano – W Walcott, Charles, Moore, Cockell
2. Walcott – W Charles, Johnson L Marciano
3. Charles – W Louis, maxim, bivins L Walcott, Marciano, Valdes, Johnson
4. Johansen – W Patterson, Machen, Neuhaus
5. Patterson – W Moore L Johansen
6. Moore – W Johnson, Valdes, Baker, Maxim, Bivins, Johnson L Paterson, Marciano
7. Machen – W Valdes, Maxim, Baker L Johansen D Folley
8. Valdes - W Charles, Neuhaus L Machen, Folley, Satterfield, Baker, Liston
9. Cockell – W La Starza, Mathews L Marciano, Valdes
10. Bivins – W Henry L Charles, Harrison, baker, Louis, Harrison
11. Mathews – W Layne L Cockell, Marciano

It is kind and odd decade. You have guys like Marciano, Charles and Walcott in the early part, then Liston, Patterson, Johansson take over in the latter part.

I think one guy that has to belong is Harold Johnson. He had wins over Charles and Valdes; as well as guys like Marshall,Whitehurst, and Satterfield.
Perhaps Rex Layne as well. He had some losses, but did beat both Charles and Walcott.

This is a good call. he is one of the guys i hadnt got to yet. I make it,
Johnson: W Charles, Valdes, Marshall, Henry, Bethea, Whitehurst D Satterfield L Walcott, Moore, Smith

At a guess, i would probably rate him one place below Moore.

This lets us look at Oakland Billy Smith. He has the win over Johnson but no other wins over notable heavyweights. But he has losses Moore, Andrews and Holman. The Moore loss is no problem, but Andrews and Holman appear unranked. Holman does have some good but inconsistent wins, but i dont see how he can be top 10 of the decade. it must count against Smith. Andrews was a good fighter and ran some good fighters close, including a Split decision with Ezzard Charles where he knocked Charles down, but i never credit losses so i cant see him ranking either. I think these losses must rank Billy Smith Well below the top 10 tier, meaning that his one win over Johnson was overshadowed by his losses.

Clarence Henry is another i havent got to yet.

Henry: W Baker, Saterfield, Thompson, Bivins L Moore, Johnson, Slade, Jackson. It is hard to really rate Henry at this stage, until Baker, Satersfield and possibly even Thompson are ranked. But tentatively, you would think that one place above Bivins might by a starting point.

I agree with you about this being a strange decade split into the early and late dominant runs. Of course, it is arguable and perhaps even likely that the reason for this split was that the retirement of Marciano allowed the later fighters to take their place.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I will try something a little bit different with this one. Same rules, Results based only. But, this list is not finished, so others are able to offer up possibilities of the boxers that have been left out. I must say, it is surprising just how competitive this decade was. Which other fighters must be on the list.


1. Rocky Marciano – W Walcott, Charles, Moore, Cockell
2. Walcott – W Charles, Johnson L Marciano
3. Charles – W Louis, maxim, bivins L Walcott, Marciano, Valdes, Johnson
4. Johansen – W Patterson, Machen, Neuhaus
5. Patterson – W Moore L Johansen
6. Moore – W Johnson, Valdes, Baker, Maxim, Bivins, Johnson L Paterson, Marciano
7. Machen – W Valdes, Maxim, Baker L Johansen D Folley
8. Valdes - W Charles, Neuhaus L Machen, Folley, Satterfield, Baker, Liston
9. Cockell – W La Starza, Mathews L Marciano, Valdes
10. Bivins – W Henry L Charles, Harrison, baker, Louis, Harrison
11. Mathews – W Layne L Cockell, Marciano

It is kind and odd decade. You have guys like Marciano, Charles and Walcott in the early part, then Liston, Patterson, Johansson take over in the latter part.

I think one guy that has to belong is Harold Johnson. He had wins over Charles and Valdes; as well as guys like Marshall,Whitehurst, and Satterfield.
Perhaps Rex Layne as well. He had some losses, but did beat both Charles and Walcott.

This is a good call. he is one of the guys i hadnt got to yet. I make it,
Johnson: W Charles, Valdes, Marshall, Henry, Bethea, Whitehurst D Satterfield L Walcott, Moore, Smith

At a guess, i would probably rate him one place below Moore.

This lets us look at Oakland Billy Smith. He has the win over Johnson but no other wins over notable heavyweights. But he has losses Moore, Andrews and Holman. The Moore loss is no problem, but Andrews and Holman appear unranked. Holman does have some good but inconsistent wins, but i dont see how he can be top 10 of the decade. it must count against Smith. Andrews was a good fighter and ran some good fighters close, including a Split decision with Ezzard Charles where he knocked Charles down, but i never credit losses so i cant see him ranking either. I think these losses must rank Billy Smith Well below the top 10 tier, meaning that his one win over Johnson was overshadowed by his losses.

Clarence Henry is another i havent got to yet.

Henry: W Baker, Saterfield, Thompson, Bivins L Moore, Johnson, Slade, Jackson. It is hard to really rate Henry at this stage, until Baker, Satersfield and possibly even Thompson are ranked. But tentatively, you would think that one place above Bivins might by a starting point.

I agree with you about this being a strange decade split into the early and late dominant runs. Of course, it is arguable and perhaps even likely that the reason for this split was that the retirement of Marciano allowed the later fighters to take their place.

My favourite among the myriad of reasons your system sucks.

[Boilermaker]

Does any heavyweight, on his best night in the '50s, beat Sonny Liston at his best in the '50s?

It is hard to say. I think Prime Sonny probably starts favourite against most if not all.

But,

Marciano would make a war with anyone. His duck might allow him to get unerneath the jab of Liston quite well. He would take him to war, as he did with anyone and Sonny would need to show tremendous heart to win. Something which he has been accused of lacking.

Johanson would be a big underdog. But, his Right hand was lethal. It seemed to come from nowhere and was timed to perfection despite not being super fast or anything. Johansen could land huge, even against the run of the fight, and score the KO from nowhere. Liston in two of his losses (three if you count the second Ali fight) was capable of being caught and KOd by a shot from lesser hitters than Johansen.

Walcott was an exceptional boxer mover, almost in the Ali mold. Most would say Walcott was not as good as Ali, but his speed and style gave the great Joe Louis major problems. No reason whatsoever why it wouldnt do the same to Liston. He has a chance.

Charles, you would expect to lose and maybe even get dominated or KOd early. But he was very good, certainly an improvement on Marty Marshall who beat Liston. I dont think it would be an easy fight.

I cant see many others with much of a chance of beating Liston, but it is certainly not unthinkable.

[Boilermaker]

It is kind and odd decade. You have guys like Marciano, Charles and Walcott in the early part, then Liston, Patterson, Johansson take over in the latter part.

I think one guy that has to belong is Harold Johnson. He had wins over Charles and Valdes; as well as guys like Marshall,Whitehurst, and Satterfield.
Perhaps Rex Layne as well. He had some losses, but did beat both Charles and Walcott.

This is a good call. he is one of the guys i hadnt got to yet. I make it,
Johnson: W Charles, Valdes, Marshall, Henry, Bethea, Whitehurst D Satterfield L Walcott, Moore, Smith

At a guess, i would probably rate him one place below Moore.

This lets us look at Oakland Billy Smith. He has the win over Johnson but no other wins over notable heavyweights. But he has losses Moore, Andrews and Holman. The Moore loss is no problem, but Andrews and Holman appear unranked. Holman does have some good but inconsistent wins, but i dont see how he can be top 10 of the decade. it must count against Smith. Andrews was a good fighter and ran some good fighters close, including a Split decision with Ezzard Charles where he knocked Charles down, but i never credit losses so i cant see him ranking either. I think these losses must rank Billy Smith Well below the top 10 tier, meaning that his one win over Johnson was overshadowed by his losses.

Clarence Henry is another i havent got to yet.

Henry: W Baker, Saterfield, Thompson, Bivins L Moore, Johnson, Slade, Jackson. It is hard to really rate Henry at this stage, until Baker, Satersfield and possibly even Thompson are ranked. But tentatively, you would think that one place above Bivins might by a starting point.

I agree with you about this being a strange decade split into the early and late dominant runs. Of course, it is arguable and perhaps even likely that the reason for this split was that the retirement of Marciano allowed the later fighters to take their place.

My favourite among the myriad of reasons your system sucks.

It doesnt surpise me that you value a loss so highly. Winners never do.

[hhaehre]

Does any heavyweight, on his best night in the '50s, beat Sonny Liston at his best in the '50s?

It is hard to say. I think Prime Sonny probably starts favourite against most if not all.

Yet he's not on your list because?

[Boilermaker]

Does any heavyweight, on his best night in the '50s, beat Sonny Liston at his best in the '50s?

It is hard to say. I think Prime Sonny probably starts favourite against most if not all.

Yet he's not on your list because?

Because (as i stated) the list is not finished. WHo do you say are his best wins in the 50s, and would you say that these wins place Sonny Liston?

[hhaehre]

It is hard to say. I think Prime Sonny probably starts favourite against most if not all.

Yet he's not on your list because?

Because (as i stated) the list is not finished. WHo do you say are his best wins in the 50s, and would you say that these wins place Sonny Liston?

Good wins: Williams, Valdes, DeJohn, Marshall and Summerlin. He should be on the list because:

Prime Sonny probably starts favourite against most if not all

[Boilermaker]

Yet he's not on your list because?

Because (as i stated) the list is not finished. WHo do you say are his best wins in the 50s, and would you say that these wins place Sonny Liston?

Good wins: Williams, Valdes, DeJohn, Marshall and Summerlin. He should be on the list because:

Prime Sonny probably starts favourite against most if not all

That is a good list of wins. But here is the difficult part. Do you really think that those 5 guys stand up to say, Charles, Walcott, Moore, Louis and Layne. I dont think it gets anywhere near it. So i cant see Liston number 1. I think you will agree that while Liston ranks highly, his best run started in 1960 and maybe late 1959. If Liston had retired in 1960 or even worse, started drinking and lost all form completely and started losing fights, no one would give him a snowballs chance against Marciano and others in the 50s. Marshall was not one of the 10 best in the 50s, and he only lost 1-1. Plus the second win against Marshall although in impressive fashion was essentially the same result as satterfield and Johnson just had. Williams was a good young fighter but there is a lot of unkownds in him, had had the early loss to Satterfield by KO. Valdes may have been Liston's biggest win, but others including Satterfield had already scorred the win.

Satterfield is an interesting one. Some good results and some losses. He lost to: Layne, Henry, Charles & others D: Marshall, Johnson W Valdes, Summerlin, Baker, Oma. This one means that he would rank somewhere around Valdes at best but below Layne, Henry and Charles presumably.

Mike De John was listed as one of Liston's good wins and rightly so. I wonder how he fares and who he had beaten. The best fighter he beat was Baker and he drew a series with Besmanoff. He lost to Liston, Valdes, Bivins and Folley.

Folley beat Valdes, bethea and Besmanoff he drew with Machen and he only lost to Cooper, Summerlin, Young Jack Johnson. With the last to probably being pre prime. The Valdes bethea wins may lift him to somewhere towards the bottom of the top 10, around the Valdes level, just above probably.

Bethea has the win over Charles, but this cant really count, because Charles was clearly past it by this stage and losing to lots of top fighters. Whitehurst was his next best win, but he lost to Liston, Folley, Carter Johnson and others. He must rank below all of those, i would have thought and at best he would rank ahead of Whitehurst.

Summerlin beat Whitehurst and Foley who are pretty good names. He lost to Liston, Satterfield, Machen and others. Realistically, he must rate somewhere just below Satterfield and Machen.

Williams won a lot of fights. The only two times he really stepped up in the decade, he lost to Satterfield and Liston. He didnt really actually beat anyone too impressive. Maybe deleon or Holman are the two biggest names. I dont think Williams coudl even make the current ratings because he had not yet beat a decent figther.

Marshall lost to Baker, Johnson, Liston and others. His best result was technically a draw with Liston and Satterfield.


Looking back honestly (and without considering what he did in the early 60s) I would consder that Liston has to rank ahead of Valdes and probably he shades Machen also, because he didnt have the loss to Folley (who was beaten by liston victims) although he did have the Marshall blemish. I think he has to slot in at number 7. I dont think that he has a win as good as Harold johnson on his list. And certainly not a win as good as Patterson's Archie Moore, or Johansen's win over Patterson.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Thats so full of holes, I wouldnt even know where to start. My fault for reading it, I guess.

You are a Boxing diletantte and a buffoon.

[Boilermaker]

1. Rocky Marciano – W Walcott, Charles, Moore, Cockel
2. Walcott – W Charles, Johnson L Marciano
3. Charles – W Louis, maxim, bivins L Walcott, Marciano, Valdes, Johnson
4. Johansen – W Patterson, Machen, Neuhaus
5. Patterson – W Moore L Johansen
6. Moore - W Johnson, Valdes, Baker, Maxim, Bivins, Johnson L Paterson, Marciano
7. Johnson: W Charles, Valdes, Marshall, Henry, Bethea, Whitehurst D Satterfield L Walcott, Moore, Smith
8. Liston - Williams, Valdes, DeJohn, Summerlin D Marshall
9. Machen – W Valdes, Maxim, Baker L Johansen D Folley
10. Satterfield - Layne, Henry, Charles & others D: Marshall, Johnson W Valdes, Summerlin, Baker, Oma
11. Summerlin - W Whitehurst, Foley L Liston, Satterfield, Machen and others
12. Folley – w Valdes, bethea Besmanoff d Machen L Cooper, Summerlin, Johnson
13. Valdes - W Charles, Neuhaus L Machen, Folley, Satterfield, Baker, Liston
14. Marshall - Baker, Johnson, Liston and others
15. Cockell – W La Starza, Mathews L Marciano, Valdes
16. Henry: W Baker, Saterfield, Thompson, Bivins L Moore, Johnson, Slade, Jackson
17. Bivins – W Henry L Charles, Harrison, baker, Louis, Harrison
18. Mathews – W Layne L Cockell, Marciano
19. De John – W Baker d Besmanoff. L Liston, Valdes, Bivins and Folley
20. Bethea - W Charles, Whitehurst L Liston, Folley, Carter Johnson and others

Here is an updated list. I can see that Sonny Liston's placing is not going to go down too well.

Also, it hasnt been mentioned, but Charles looks like he might be a little high for the decade, given who he actually beat and the loss of form towards the end of the decade. Off hand, consideration needs to be given to the ranking of Baker, Layne, LaStarza and that should be most of the main guys for the decade.

[Giancarlo]

Where would I be without this site!

[Ambling Alp]

I don't think Walcott's win over Johnson means much at all. Johnson was not even a top 10 light-heavyweight when the bout took place. It early in his career.