Jeffries, Tunney, Louis, Marciano, Ali, Lewis...

[Goodnight, Irene]

These are the six men to retire on top of the HW division.

For how much longer could each have held on had they continued as champ, and who would you pick to de-throne them? Assume each man goes straight to their toughest foe without ducking or fighting lesser threats. All listed ages are correct to the year.

Jeffries - Retired in 1905, aged 30. Top contenders were Hart, Johnson, Langford, Jeanette, Burns. The pick of the bunch is Johnson for the job IMO, but as I believe a peak Jeffries to be Johnson's superior, its easy to say who, but harder to determine when. I'll say around 1907-08.

Tunney - Called time in 1928, aged 31. Top contenders were Sharkey and Schmeling. I think he has both licked around 1928-30, after which one of them wins a rematch with the ageing champ.

Louis - Gave it away in 1949, aged 35. Top contenders were Charles and Walcott. This ones a synch, IMO. Charles would get his shot ahead of Walcott, given his two failures, and he was ready by then. Louis was already far enough gone in 49 to fall victim to Charles, so I say he got out at just the right time.

Marciano - Rode off into the sunset in 1956, aged 33. Top contenders were Patterson and Moore. One had already fallen comprehensively to Marciano, and the other, most would agree with me was not upto beating the champ. My verdict? An ageing Marciano, slowed further by his back, gets the job done until a 1959 encounter with Johansson.

Ali - Goodnight, Irene (for now) in 1979, aged 37. Top contenders were Holmes, Norton, Shavers, and Tate. Like Louis, an easy one, this. Ali goes straight to Holmes in late-79, does not pass go, does not collect $200, and does not leave the arena with his belt. He and Louis were one bout away from being succeeded by force.

Lewis - Wrote the final chapter and closed his book in 2004, aged 39 (the oldest to retire on top). Top contenders were the Klitschko bros, Peter, and Sanders. I am not of the opinion Vitali wins a rematch with what would have been a fitter Lewis, but the other three inspire no confidence in me. I leave this one open-ended. Im not sure who gets to Lewis, or when they do it.

[BoxBuzz]

These are the six men to retire on top of the HW division.

For how much longer could each have held on had they continued as champ, and who would you pick to de-throne them? Assume each man goes straight to their toughest foe without ducking or fighting lesser threats. All listed ages are correct to the year.

Jeffries - Retired in 1905, aged 30. Top contenders were Hart, Johnson, Langford, Jeanette, Burns. The pick of the bunch is Johnson for the job IMO, but as I believe a peak Jeffries to be Johnson's superior, its easy to say who, but harder to determine when. I'll say around 1907-08.

Tunney - Called time in 1928, aged 31. Top contenders were Sharkey and Schmeling. I think he has both licked around 1928-30, after which one of them wins a rematch with the ageing champ.

Louis - Gave it away in 1949, aged 35. Top contenders were Charles and Walcott. This ones a synch, IMO. Charles would get his shot ahead of Walcott, given his two failures, and he was ready by then. Louis was already far enough gone in 49 to fall victim to Charles, so I say he got out at just the right time.

Marciano - Rode off into the sunset in 1956, aged 33. Top contenders were Floyd Patterson and Archie Moore. One had already fallen comprehensively to Marciano, and the other, most would agree with me was not upto beating Marciano. My verdict? An ageing Marciano, slowed further by his back, gets the job done until a 1959 encounter with Ingemar Johansson.

Ali - Goodnight, Irene (for now) in 1979, aged 37. Top contenders were Larry Holmes, Kenny Norton, Earnie Shavers, and John Tate. Like Louis, an easy one, this. Ali goes straight to Holmes in late-79, does not pass go, does not collect $200, and does not leave the arena with his belt. He and Louis were one bout away from being succeeded by force.

Lewis - Wrote the final chapter and closed his book in 2004, aged 39 (the oldest to retire on top). Top contenders were the Klitschko bros, Vitali and Wlad, Sam Peter, and Corrie Sanders. I am not of the opinion Vitali wins a rematch with what would have been a fitter Lewis, but the other three inspire no confidence in me. I leave this one open-ended. Im not sure who gets to Lewir, or when they do it.

From what I read (a lot on this forum), and if one should subscribe to such literature...lol...... Lewis was just one nervous referee away from having Big Klit force him out. If only Vitali was given the ever popular Crimson "Basilio Pass".

[Ezzard]

Agree with most…

Marciano would eventually lost sooner, I think. Not because there was anyone out there to beat him. His body would have given out on him sooner than 59.

Ali could have gone sooner, Young, Shavers, Norton… If he had lost to one of those three he wouldn’t have got it back.

Lennox would have most likely gone to Vitali in a rematch.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Who would have bested Marciano?

Johansson (earlier)? Patterson? Someone else, a Liston, Williams or Machen?

I doubt battles with Norton, Young or Shavers would have materialised ahead of a fight with Holmes, since those bouts had all happened and Holmes, with new bargaining power in the form of the WBA belt, had not. Either Holmes or Tate would be Ali's next foe after beating Spinks, IMO.

[Ezzard]

Who would have bested Marciano?

Johansson (earlier)? Patterson? Someone else, a Liston, Williams or Machen?

I doubt battles with Norton, Young or Shavers would have materialised ahead of a fight with Holmes, since those bouts had all happened and Holmes, with new bargaining power in the form of the WBA belt, had not. Either Holmes or Tate would be Ali's next foe after beating Spinks, IMO.

Regarding Rocky, I don't know who. I think it would be less about the opponent and more about the fact he was asking too much of his body.

Regarding Ali, you're probably right. His next fight would have been the end. Would have been better for him if he had lost the title earlier. I don't think any of it did him any good.

[Goodnight, Irene]

He should have, too.

His first hint of a gift came against Lyle (no, to all you conscientious objectors, I dont want to get into THAT debate again. Thats my view of the bout, deal with it), then outright losses to Young and Norton were written off as wins.

[yancey]

Who would have bested Marciano?

Johansson (earlier)? Patterson? Someone else, a Liston, Williams or Machen?

I doubt battles with Norton, Young or Shavers would have materialised ahead of a fight with Holmes, since those bouts had all happened and Holmes, with new bargaining power in the form of the WBA belt, had not. Either Holmes or Tate would be Ali's next foe after beating Spinks, IMO.

Machen, possibly.

I think Marciano's camp would have kept him about three time zones away from Liston at all times.

[BoxBuzz]

He should have, too.

His first hint of a gift came against Lyle (no, to all you conscientious objectors, I dont want to get into THAT debate again. Thats my view of the bout, deal with it), then outright losses to Young and Norton were written off as wins.

Outright? The degree of the error appears to be subject to inflation. Another side affect of a bad economy?

[fatcity69]

He should have, too.

His first hint of a gift came against Lyle (no, to all you conscientious objectors, I dont want to get into THAT debate again. Thats my view of the bout, deal with it), then outright losses to Young and Norton were written off as wins.

Outright? I disagree, as you say thats your view of the bouts but the facts are that both fights were very close and usually a challenger has to win clearly to beat a champion. Imo Norton let the fight slip with his late fade, while Young was simply too negative to win their bout, yes he made ali look bad and was great defensively but you need to do more than show a great defense and be ducking throught the ropes to win a world title imo...

[yancey]

He should have, too.

His first hint of a gift came against Lyle (no, to all you conscientious objectors, I dont want to get into THAT debate again. Thats my view of the bout, deal with it), then outright losses to Young and Norton were written off as wins.

Outright? I disagree, as you say thats your view of the bouts but the facts are that both fights were very close and usually a challenger has to win clearly to beat a champion. Imo Norton let the fight slip with his late fade, while Young was simply too negative to win their bout, yes he made ali look bad and was great defensively but you need to do more than show a great defense and be ducking throught the ropes to win a world title imo...

Nah, Ali absolutely lost that third Norton bout and the bout against Young. No doubt what so ever on that one.

Agree 100%.

[Goodnight, Irene]

He should have, too.

His first hint of a gift came against Lyle (no, to all you conscientious objectors, I dont want to get into THAT debate again. Thats my view of the bout, deal with it), then outright losses to Young and Norton were written off as wins.

Outright? The degree of the error appears to be subject to inflation. Another side affect of a bad economy?

Well, lets see. I had him winning four or five rounds against Young, and he himself said Norton beat him straight after the 76 fight.

[Goodnight, Irene]

He should have, too.

His first hint of a gift came against Lyle (no, to all you conscientious objectors, I dont want to get into THAT debate again. Thats my view of the bout, deal with it), then outright losses to Young and Norton were written off as wins.

Outright? I disagree, as you say thats your view of the bouts but the facts are that both fights were very close and usually a challenger has to win clearly to beat a champion. Imo Norton let the fight slip with his late fade, while Young was simply too negative to win their bout, yes he made ali look bad and was great defensively but you need to do more than show a great defense and be ducking throught the ropes to win a world title imo...

I didnt see the bouts as close at all. An example of a very close fight Ali won a decision in would be Shavers --- people shouldnt complain at that one, but such was not the case here, not at all.

Ali and I disagree with your assertion that Norton didnt win the last clash, and two things I can always count on when the Young fight comes up are...

1) Everyone whinges about Young's tactics

2) No one scoring for Ali can actually mount a case he out-scored Young.

[BoxBuzz]

No one can make the case that any of the judges saw it your way.....

[Goodnight, Irene]

Gee, how meaningful

Could you be any more redundant?

[BoxBuzz]

Gee, how meaningful

Could you be any more redundant?

\

possibly, however it would require repetition.....

[Crease]

Good thread, should make for some interesting reading.


Here are my thoughts on each one:

James Jeffries:
Jeffries would have continued holding his title until the arrival of Jack Johnson. Remember back in the early 1900s, sometimes Heavyweights would go 2 years without defending the title. That said, I could see Jeffries having 3/4/5 fights against Tommy Burns.
But I'd fancy Jeffries to best Burns in that series of fights but eventually losing to Johnson and retiring afte rlosing the rematch.

Gene Tunney:
Well the question on this one is: Could Tunney hold on to the title until Joe Louis comes 'A-calling. I think it he would've beat Jack Sharkey, but the bout(s) against Schmeling would have been a tough one to call.
But I think Tunney eventually loses it to Joe Louis.

Joe Louis:
Obviously would have lost the title to Ezzard Charles. And I reckon in the 50s, he would have lost to Jersey Joe Walcott had they fought around that time (with Louis getting worse and Walcott getting better).

Rocky Marciano:
This is a difficult one to call. I think Rocky successfully defends against Nino Valdez (contrary to the myths) and he would have beat Johannson... And regarding Patterson - Floyd could be intimidated by heavy handers (as he sowed with Liston)... So I fancy Rocky to beat him as well.
I'd probably say Sonny Liston on this one.

Muhammad Ali:
Loses to Larry Holmes in the late 70s.

Lennox Lewis:
Lewis loses the rematch to Vitali Klitschko. And if there is a third fight, he loses that too.

[Crease]

Marciano would eventually lost sooner, I think. Not because there was anyone out there to beat him. His body would have given out on him sooner than 59.

Excellent point that... But Rocky was strongly resolute. If he had;ve kept pushing himself, there would be no formidable foes in his way until Sonny Liston comes along.

[Crease]

I think Marciano's camp would have kept him about three time zones away from Liston at all times.

I wouldn't have thought so. Marciano always took on all-comers. That's one thing that you have to give him credit for, the man was not afraid of getting into a scrap with anyobdy.

[Crease]

Nah, Ali absolutely lost that third Norton bout and the bout against Young. No doubt what so ever on that one.

The same thing was said about his 1963 fight with Doug Jones, quite a number of sports writers scored the bout in Jones' favour.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Nah, Ali absolutely lost that third Norton bout and the bout against Young. No doubt what so ever on that one.

The same thing was said about his 1963 fight with Doug Jones, quite a number of sports writers scored the bout in Jones' favour.

Ali didnt say after the bout he felt he lost, though (which he did after Norton III).

[Goodnight, Irene]

Marciano would eventually lost sooner, I think. Not because there was anyone out there to beat him. His body would have given out on him sooner than 59.

Excellent point that... But Rocky was strongly resolute. If he had;ve kept pushing himself, there would be no formidable foes in his way until Sonny Liston comes along.

I think you're forgetting one formidable foe --- can you guess who Im thinking of?

Hint: He was as unstoppable as Marciano himself.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Good thread, should make for some interesting reading.


Here are my thoughts on each one:

James Jeffries:
Jeffries would have continued holding his title until the arrival of Jack Johnson. Remember back in the early 1900s, sometimes Heavyweights would go 2 years without defending the title. That said, I could see Jeffries having 3/4/5 fights against Tommy Burns.
But I'd fancy Jeffries to best Burns in that series of fights but eventually losing to Johnson and retiring afte rlosing the rematch.

Gene Tunney:
Well the question on this one is: Could Tunney hold on to the title until Joe Louis comes 'A-calling. I think it he would've beat Jack Sharkey, but the bout(s) against Schmeling would have been a tough one to call.
But I think Tunney eventually loses it to Joe Louis.

Joe Louis:
Obviously would have lost the title to Ezzard Charles. And I reckon in the 50s, he would have lost to Jersey Joe Walcott had they fought around that time (with Louis getting worse and Walcott getting better).

Rocky Marciano:
This is a difficult one to call. I think Rocky successfully defends against Nino Valdez (contrary to the myths) and he would have beat Johannson... And regarding Patterson - Floyd could be intimidated by heavy handers (as he sowed with Liston)... So I fancy Rocky to beat him as well.
I'd probably say Sonny Liston on this one.

Muhammad Ali:
Loses to Larry Holmes in the late 70s.

Lennox Lewis:
Lewis loses the rematch to Vitali Klitschko. And if there is a third fight, he loses that too.

Pretty good post --- I disagree with Klitschko beating Lewis, but I suppose the champ was slowing down, so who knows.

However, I cant possibly see Tunney lasting until 1937, or Marciano making it to 1962. There were fairly strong contenders in both times (Sharkey, Baer, Schmeling, & Williams, Machen, Johansson), with both Tunney being 40 & Marciano 39 by the time Louis and Liston fought for the crown. Someone would have got to each of them before then, IMO.

[Crease]

I think you're forgetting one formidable foe --- can you guess who Im thinking of?

Hint: He was as unstoppable as Marciano himself.

Who do you mean? Patterson or Johansson?

Or are you talking about Tommy Jackson?

[loaded_gloves]

Liston emerged on the big scene with his exciting kayo of the Big Cat in April 59 - he ploughed through a series of top contenders but could have easily been tackling Marciano around 1960 - assuming Marciano made it past Floyd Patterson.

Just because D'Amato put off fighting Liston till 62 doesn't mean Rock would have.

[loaded_gloves]

Ingo was pretty tasty round that time as well. Deftly moved men into his lethal right. The KO of Machen was pretty astonishing. Could have been some very stern tests for an ageing Marciano with Floyd, Ingo and Sonny.