Best Olympic team

[zurdo]

Which Olympic team was the best?
The Two Obvious Choices would be the 1976 team
106 Leo Randolph (GM)
112 Louis Curtis
118 Charles Mooney(SM)
126 Davey Armstrong
132 Howard Davis Jr(GM)
139 Ray Leonard(GM)
147 Clint Jackson
154 Chuck Walker
165 Michael Spinks(GM)
178 Leon Spinks(GM)
Heavyweight John Tate(BM)

and the 1984 Team
106 Paul Gonzalez(GM)
112 Steve McCrory(GM)
119 Robert Shannon
126 Meldrick Taylor(GM)
132 Pernell Whitaker(GM)
139 Jerry Page(GM)
147 Mark Breland(GM)
154 Frank Tate(GM)
165 Virgil Hill(SM)
178 Evander Holyfield(BM)
Heavyweight Henry Tillman(GM)
Super Heavy Tyrell Biggs(GM)
Those are my two canidates
discuss.

[Pod]

Both are excellent teams, but I think the accomplisments of Sugar Ray and the Spinks brothers seperate the two teams.


Close but,
1976

[Pod]

Accomplishments with an h

[Tomato-Can]

I liked the 76 team because it had two local fighters on it but check the records. Collectively the 84 team did better both as olympians and pros.

[Guest]

Ah yes, but the 76 team produced 3 HW champs/titlests, and I believe that trumps the 84 team. Being that the HW/open division is the premier division. And I don't believe anyone on the 84 team had quite the 'personality' of Sugar Ray Leonard. Both great teams though!

[Chicago Man]

I think 1980 was the year a lot of good fighters did not get a real opportunity. Though the gold was slightliy tainted, guys like LeRoy Murphy shined as both amateur and pros. Maybe the team was number 3, 4 or 5 on the list ??????

[Double Jab]

Ah yes, but the 76 team produced 3 HW champs/titlests, and I believe that trumps the 84 team. Being that the HW/open division is the premier division. And I don't believe anyone on the 84 team had quite the 'personality' of Sugar Ray Leonard. Both great teams though!

I think also that you have to consider the fact that during the 84 Olympics, there was an East Bloc/Communist boycott. Meaning that Cuba, Russia and approximately 11 (?) other nations were not represented.

[Guest]

It is true that the 76 team most likely faced stiffer competition because many of the top amatuer boxers came from the Soviet Bloc and especially Cuba...so my personal choice would be the 76 team

although there was also another US team in the fifties (I think it was the 52 team featuring Floyd Patterson) Which won a bunch of medals It would also merit consideration..

[zurdo]

The 1980 team was also very good. But seemed to be cursed with incrediblebad luck. The US boycotted the olympics. Many of the top US amatuer prospects and coaches were killed in a plane crash in Poland a few months before the trials. Many of the fighters who did make the team were also cursed with bad luck and made some very bad life descions
James Broad: Career ruined by alcholism
Tony Tucker: Substance abuse problems
Tony Ayala : 16 years in prison for rape derails potential superstardom
Charles Carter Substance abuse problems destroyed career
Donald Curry:early career flameout spent some time in prison for drug trafficing
Johnny Bumpus Severe substance abuse problems
Jackie Beard and Jerome Coffee both talented fighters but underachieved in the pros

[zurdo]

Oh I forgot Richie Sandoval who had to retire abruptly from a promising career because of a brain injury...
and Hard luck Robert Shannon who was also on the 84 team and was the only member not to get a medal...
The 1980 team was very talented but cursed with terrible luck

[Justin]

1984 team, by far... McCrory, Taylor, Whitaker, Breland, Hill, Holyfield... takes a lot to top that! and no team with it's only truly good pro's being the spinks brothers and Leonard comes close.

[Smart Guy]

LEO RANDOLPH, DAVEY ARMSTRONG AND HOWAR DAVIS JR. Come on these guy only do not look GREAT Because they were with the Spinks bros and Sugar Ray. But they round off a great team at least equal to any if not the best. When elese has a light heavy champ won the heavy title, Never. and Who other than Leon won the heavy title with seven pro fights under his belt , No one. and Sugar did it all they are a team in themselves but the others I mentioned above make it a well rounded TEAM With a capital T !!!!!!!!!!!!

[dmille]

How are the teams being compared? As amatuers? On later pro success?

Both teams produced two all-time greats; 1976 - Leonard and Michael Spinks, 1984 - Holy and Whitaker.

84 produced more titleholders but they didn't have to face the russians or cubans in LA.

[dmille]

Louis Curtis
1976 us golden gloves light flyweight champion

Leo Randolph
1975 us golden gloves flyweight champion
1976 us flyweight champion

Charles Mooney
no major titles

Davey Armstrong
1972 us light flyweight champion
1975 us featherweight champion
1975 pan-american featherweight champion
1976 us golden gloves featherweight champion
1976 us featherweight champion
1978 us golden gloves lightweight champion
1979 us lightweight champion

Howard Davis Jr
1973 us featherweight champion
1974 world featherweight champion
1976 us lightweight champion

Ray Leonard
1973 us golden gloves lightweight champion
1974 us golden gloves light welterweight champion
1974 us light welterweight champion
1975 us light welterweight champion
1975 pan-american light welterweight champion

Clint Jackson
1974 us golden gloves welterweight champion
1974 us welterweight champion
1975 us golden gloves welterweight champion
1975 us welterweight champion
1975 pan-american welterweight champion
1976 us golden gloves welterweight champion
1976 us welterweight champion
1977 us light middleweight champion

Chuck Walker
1975 us light middleweight champion

Michael Spinks
1974 us golden gloves light middleweight champion
1976 us golden gloves middleweight champion

Leon Spinks
1974 us light heavyweight champion
1975 us light heavyweight champion
1976 us light heavyweight champion

John Tate
no major titles

16 us national
11 golden gloves
3 pan-am
1 world

27 us total
31 total

[dmille]

Paul Gonzalez
1983 us light flyweight champion

Steve McCrory
1980 us golden gloves light flyweight champion
1982 us flyweight champion
1983 us flyweight champion
1983 world championship challenge flyweight champion

Robert Shannon
1980 us light flyweight champion
1984 us golden gloves bantamweight champion

Meldrick Taylor
1982 us golden gloves bantamweight champion

Pernell Whitaker
1982 us lightweight champion
1983 pan-american lightweight champion
1983 world championship challenge lightweight champion
1984 world championship challenge lightweight champion

Jerry Page
no major titles

Mark Breland
1982 us welterweight champion
1982 world welterweight champion
1983 us welterweight champion
1983 world championship challenge welterweight champion
1984 world championship challenge welterweight champion

Frank Tate
1983 us golden gloves light middleweight champion
1983 us light middleweight champion
1984 world championship challenge light middleweight champion

Virgil Hill
1984 us golden gloves middleweight champion

Evander Holyfield
1984 us golden gloves light heavyweight champion

Henry Tillman
no major titles

Tyrell Biggs
1981 us super heavyweight champion
1982 us super heavyweight champion
1982 world super heavyweight champion
1983 us super heavyweight champion
1984 world championship challenge super heavyweight champion

11 us national
6 golden gloves
1 pan-am
2 world
7 world challenge*

17 us total
27 total*

* world championship challenge established in 1983

[dmille]

When judged only on achievement, the 76 team is clearly superior. One less fighter, much more accomplished.

Take away the 7 world challenge titles and it is not even close.

On top of it, consider that Jackson's and Armstrong's olympic losses were almost as outrageous as Jones' in 88.

Note: I can find no source listing military or PAL championships.

[zurdo]

Well if you judge amateur accomplishments the 76 team is better...
The 84 team collected more professional titles (but there were also more alphabet titles to go around in their time)

[Smart Guy]

If they could fight each other I say the 1976 team wins two more bouts versus any of the other teams. Especially if they fight as pros

What lightheavy, or cruiserweight could beat Spinks None!

[Guest]

What lightheavy, or cruiserweight could beat Spinks None!

I'd say Evander Holyfield from the 84 team would have a pretty good chance... we're talking about a hall of famer vs a future hall of famer
nobody is a sure thing over Evander...even today

Virgil Hill might also have a chance to spring an upset...Hill wasn't a great fighter but he was just below the level of a great fighter..he was as least as good as anybody Spinks fought at light heavy.. He'd be a live underdog

[dmille]

I'd say Evander Holyfield from the 84 team would have a pretty good chance... we're talking about a hall of famer vs a future hall of famer nobody is a sure thing over Evander...even today

Virgil Hill might also have a chance to spring an upset...Hill wasn't a great fighter but he was just below the level of a great fighter..he was as least as good as anybody Spinks fought at light heavy.. He'd be a live underdog

Evander at cruiser was too green for Spinks. Look at the first Qawi fight, it was life and death. Spinks lost one round to the guy.

Virgil Hill? He was imtimidated by the power of Thoams Hearns, a natural/prime welter-jr middle. Dog look on a completely different meaning for Hill in that fight.

[6 Pack]

Spinks ran like he was an Olympic Gold medalist sprinter when he fought Qawi, Holyfield has way too much pride to do that. Plus you fail to mention Qawi dropped Spinks when he did catch him. Qawi would never drop Holyfield.

ANd last, Holyfield was no longer green when he left Cruiser as his 4 round destruction of cement chinned Qawi would suggest. Compare Holyfield of that fight with the Spinks that ran like a dog against Qawi. Holyfield looked much more convincing. Holyfield would beat SPinks at Cruiserweight and you would be hard pressed to find may he could not beat at that weight.

I think as pros the 84 wins. Some one mentioned the 76 team had 3 heavyweight titlist. So what. The 84 team has one of the greatest heavyweights of all-time.

The 76 team had pound for pound great Sugar Ray who won titles at many different weight classes. But the 84 team had long time pound for pound king Whitaker who also dominated many weight class.

Hill did more as a pro than Leon ever did. SO if Holyfield did more as a pro than M. Spinks (I think he did) and WHitaker and Leonard are even, and Hill beats out LEon, then who else is there on the 76 team that can compare to the pro accomplishments of Meldrick Taylor, Mark Breland and Frank Tate?

As far as which team did more as pros the 84 team wins. As for who did more in the Olympics...the 76 team looks better.

[dmille]

Spinks ran like he was an Olympic Gold medalist sprinter when he fought Qawi, Holyfield has way too much pride to do that. Plus you fail to mention Qawi dropped Spinks when he did catch him. Qawi would never drop Holyfield.

And last, Holyfield was no longer green when he left Cruiser as his 4 round destruction of cement chinned Qawi would suggest. Compare Holyfield of that fight with the Spinks that ran like a dog against Qawi. Holyfield looked much more convincing. Holyfield would beat Spinks at Cruiserweight and you would be hard pressed to find many he could not beat at that weight.

I think as pros the 84 wins. Some one mentioned the 76 team had 3 heavyweight titlist. So what. The 84 team has one of the greatest heavyweights of all-time.

The 76 team had pound for pound great Sugar Ray who won titles at many different weight classes. But the 84 team had long time pound for pound king Whitaker who also dominated many weight class.

Hill did more as a pro than Leon ever did. So if Holyfield did more as a pro than M. Spinks (I think he did) and Whitaker and Leonard are even, and Hill beats out Leon, then who else is there on the 76 team that can compare to the pro accomplishments of Meldrick Taylor, Mark Breland and Frank Tate?

As far as which team did more as pros the 84 team wins. As for who did more in the Olympics...the 76 team looks better.

So Spinks ran like a dog? That's funny. A fighter using good footwork and a stiff jab makes him a dog? Spinks fought a smart fight against Braxton. He didn't end up in the hospital afterwards the way Holy did. I don't know how you scored their fight, but the eighth round was the only one I gave to Dwight.

I agree that the 84 team did more as pros, but Davey Armstrong and Clint Jackson didn't turn pro after the olympics. They stayed ams to long and they burnt themselves out.

If the Cubans and Russians had been in LA, many of those guys would not have won golds and might not have even medaled depending on their opponent draws. Without a medal, they wouldn't have gotten the same career opportunities.

Whitaker and Leonard are even? In what way? Leonard defeated Benitez, Duran, Hearns and Hagler. Who did Sweet Pea defeat that was on that level? Chavez is only one guy.

Hill had a chance to move from titleholder to superstar when he faced Thomas Hearns. First major fight outside of Bismark and he choked.

[6 Pack]

WHitaker also beat in many's opinions Oscar De La Hoya (who is a super star in his own right), Buddy McGirt twice, As you said another pound for pound king in Chavez, Azumah Nelson( a hell of a fighter) and other champions. True Sugar Ray fought the more high profile fights, but WHitaker fought some pound for pound kings in his day and until Trinidad had arguably never lost.

I am not the only one who thought Spinks ran all night. Read the news paper accounts of that time ( I am too lazy to go back and dig some up). I agree it was a smart fight, but it was not the stuff legends are made of. I never eluded that Spinks did not deserve to win, just he did not show anything that would make me think he could beat Holyfield at cruiserweight during that fight (that was the discussion).

Sure Holyfield went to the hospital in their first fight, it was his 12th fight and he was taking on the best cruiserweight in the division (and second best of all-time behind Evander him self). But Evander still won and I think by more than 1 point.

My main point was it is not fair to call Evander too green at Cruiserweight to beat Spinks because he struggled with Qawi and Spinks won almost all of the rounds in their fight. It is not fair because That was Evander's first title fight. If it had ended there than sure he had not done much at cruiser.

But Evander stayed at cruiser and cleaned it up convincingly (granted over a weak lot) and by the time he left he had destroyed Qawi. Compare the Holyfield who destroyed Qawi to the spinks that ran all night. WHo looked more convincing? WHo would you bet on?

You know Holyfield. BY the time Evander matured at cruiser he was unstoppable. THe night he KOed Qawi vs. any light heavyweight Spinks who dared move up to face him you would have gotten a Holyfield KO.

If we wanted to nit pick I could bring up SPinks less than spectacular fight with Eddie Davis. THe truth is if both were at thier best Evander wins. That some put a best SPinks against a still growing Evander speaks volumes.

As pros the 84 did more. Period.

Sure Hill lost to Hearns but come on. Every one always brings that up, it was one fight and it was to an all-time great. Hill was on top for far too long to sum up his career with one fight. Hill did more than most on the 76 Olympic team.
He did beat Fabrice Tiozzo, Henry Maske, Lou Del Valle, Adolpho Washington, Bobby Czyz, and James Kinchen. All but one were champions.

He deserves his just due.

[dmille]

Whitaker also beat in many opinions Oscar De La Hoya (who is a super star in his own right), Buddy McGirt twice, As you said another pound for pound king in Chavez, Azumah Nelson (a hell of a fighter) and other champions. True, Sugar Ray fought the more high profile fights, but Whitaker fought some pound for pound kings in his day and until Trinidad had arguably never lost.

I am not the only one who thought Spinks ran all night. Read the news paper accounts of that time (I am too lazy to go back and dig some up). I agree it was a smart fight, but it was not the stuff legends are made of. I never eluded that Spinks did not deserve to win, just he did not show anything that would make me think he could beat Holyfield at cruiserweight during that fight (that was the discussion).

Sure Holyfield went to the hospital in their first fight, it was his 12th fight and he was taking on the best cruiserweight in the division (and second best of all-time behind Evander himself). But Evander still won and I think by more than 1 point.

My main point was it is not fair to call Evander too green at Cruiserweight to beat Spinks because he struggled with Qawi and Spinks won almost all of the rounds in their fight. It is not fair because that was Evander's first title fight. If it had ended there than sure he had not done much at cruiser.

But Evander stayed at cruiser and cleaned it up convincingly (granted over a weak lot) and by the time he left he had destroyed Qawi. Compare the Holyfield who destroyed Qawi to the Spinks that ran all night. Who looked more convincing? Who would you bet on?

You know Holyfield. By the time Evander matured at cruiser, he was unstoppable. The night he KOed Qawi vs. any light heavyweight Spinks who dared move up to face him you would have gotten a Holyfield KO.

If we wanted to nit pick, I could bring up Spinks less than spectacular fight with Eddie Davis. The truth is if both were at their best, Evander wins. That some put a best Spinks against a still growing Evander speaks volumes.

As pros the 84 did more. Period.

Sure Hill lost to Hearns but come on. Every one always brings that up, it was one fight and it was to an all-time great. Hill was on top for far too long to sum up his career with one fight. Hill did more than most on the 76 Olympic team.

He did beat Fabrice Tiozzo, Henry Maske, Lou Del Valle, Adolpho Washington, Bobby Czyz, and James Kinchen. All but one were champions.

He deserves his just due.

I don't talk about what is fair, I talk about what is true. I guess that Evander didn't know that it was his first title fight. You say use the word "truth" when you are expressing your opinion? I never confuse my opinion with fact.

Being an active top 10 pound-for-pound fighter is not the same as being an all-time great. We obviously disagree on the quality of Sweet Pea's comp. If you think it comes anywhere near to Leonard's, then we have nothing to discuss. It is funny that you simply refer to "high profile" fights. Duran, Hearns and Hagler are unquestionable all-time greats on a level higher than anyone Whitaker ever fought.

It is one thing to say that Spinks ran against Qawi, it is another to say that he ran like a dog. Spinks controlled Qawi from the first round. And you can talk about the eighth round all you want. I say that the "knockdown" was about a legit as the one in the Hagler-Roldan fight. Spinks' win was so one-sided that the KD is barely remembered.

When comparing unification bouts, I say that Spinks-Qawi was more one-sided than Lewis-Holy 1 and the worst thing about it is that (unlike Holy) Qawi was supposed to have been in his prime. Talk about Qawi's performance in that fight before you go talking about performances that do or don't make a legend.

When you compare the Spinks that defeated Braxton to the Holy that stopped him, are you also gonna compare the same two Dwights? IMO, Braxton never showed the same kind of fire after getting jobbed against Ozzie Ocasio.

I agree that Hill deserves his just due and that is what I am giving him. Hill did NOT fight Dennis Andries, Jeff Harding, Michael Moorer or Charles Williams. Maybe you think he would have defeated them. It would be a hell of a lot more impressive to say that he DID defeat them. Hell it would be impressive just to say that he fought them. Hill's title defense record at 175 is no more impressive in my mind than Artur Grigorian's is at lightweight.

We must have a different definition for the word champion, because IMNSHO Hearns and Dariusz are the only champions that Hill ever faced. You say that Hearns-Hill was only one fight. Well, I say it is the only fight of his career that matters. Hearns tamed him even easier than Spinks did Qawi. You still wanna talk about the stuff that legends are or are not made of?

Both teams produced two all-time greats. BUT I say that Spinks and Leonard are on a higher plane than Holy and Pernell. You can look at that as a put down of the latter two. I think it is simply me give the former their just due.

You wanna talk about all the "titleholders" that the 84 team produced as a great achievement, then fine. But when push came to shove in fights that could have moved Tate or Breland or Taylor to a higher level, they failed.

[6 Pack]

"I guess Evander did not know it was his first title fight?" What is that supposed to mean? I am pretty sure he did.

I think CHavez is unquestionably an all-time great and one of the best in a couple different weight classes. It was also a prime-time Chavez that WHitaker did a masterfull job of out-boxing.

Oscar De La Hoya is also unquestionbly an all-time great. Some don't like to admit that, apparently you are one of them, but he is. Whitaker agian fought him while he was in his prime.

You are right, if you don't consider those guys all-time greats than we real do have nothing to discuss.

But that is fine if you don't think WHitaker stakes up to Leonard. Leonard was an amazing fighter and certainly an all-time great himself, I just think WHitaker is aswell.

As for this talk about Qawi-Spinks...

WHy are you comparing that fight to Holyfield-Lewis? I think you are wandering too far here. The argument is who would win against a prime Holyfield at cruiser and a prime Spinks moving up to meet him at that division.

I really could not careless if you think that Spinks-Qawi was a great fight or not, or whether Qawi was in his prime or not. You are dodging the real point. It really does not matter because Qawi was not Holyfield, nor is he even similar, and comparing Spinks fight with Holyfield's fights with Qawi has taken on too much focus in this discussion.

SOme one brought it up to back up his selection of Spinks over Holyfield. I disagree. Do you honestly think SPinks could have beaten Holyfield at cruiserweight?

ENough talk about Qawi or these guys fighting him. They both beat him. Holyfield went to war with guys that Tyson did or could have blown out, but we all know what happened when those two fought.

The point is saying one guy would beat the other because he beat some other guy more convincingly is not how boxing works.

SO lets have it. Do you think SPinks would beat Evander? If yes, then why?

By the way, I never even hinted that Hill was a legend. Not even close, so lets not get dramatical.

I am saying as pros Virgil Hill, Meldrick Taylor, Mark Breland, Pernell WHitaker and Evander Holyfield did more than the 76 team did.
I don't care if Breland, Hill and Taylor lost in their mega fights, they won enough and did enough that puts that when combined with all-time greats WHitaker and Holyfied above the guys from the 76 team. That is the point.

I am not saying they are all-time greats or legends. I am saying when you look at the acheivements as a whole by the 76 team and the 84 team, the 84 team did more in the pros.

Do you agree or not. You seem to some what agree, but sway off topic a bit. Sure Hill did not beat the greatest of guys but he did more than most from the 76 team.


One last thing because this really bugs me...
Michael Spinks did not do more than Evander Holyfield. I will give you Sugar Ray over WHitaker ( I can be argued that way as both did alot), but Spinks over Holyfield!

After those two(SPinks and Leonard) who does the 76 team have to compare to the rest of the 84 team?