Rate These Feats Of Glory (Part II)...

[SaadOffTheDeck]

That's Boilermaker's memoirs. Fitzsimmons is about as comparable to Greb as Marvis is to Joe.

[hhaehre]

I remember watching Spinks come up the ranks, I figured he was too green, but I was not terribly dissapointed having someone who I had actually met on more than one occasion ascend. I really did think that Leon had potential, and thought maybe just maybe he could continue to improve. I watched/ ok more "heard about" a relentless partying routine starting immediately after this fight. I thought to myself "if only he had his brother's discipline". I felt I knew he was going to go out in a quick blaze. Which he did.


I'd like some feedback, did anyone think he could have been a great? Did anyone think he even showed any promise in his early fights?

I honestly did, but "promises" are OFTEN broken. And maybe I was just caught up in the local hysteria. He seemed very unorthodox and appeared to show an interesting relentlessness seldom seen. I wondered if what he had would be effective at the top of the ladder, and when he pulled it off, I was as interested as I was mystified.

From afar, Leon winning the title was refreshing and he seemed a likeable character, but I never got the feeling he could be truly great, at least not in the heavyweight division.

I don't quite recall exactly when the cruiserweight division came about, but maybe that was Leon's true calling in the ring.

Ali at his best would have pitched a virtual shut out against Leon, assuming it went 15.

Leon always took too many punches. When he won the title he looked quite good and won it comfortably but even a totally shot Ali landed quite a few right hands on him. Ali had nothing on his punches by then but we all saw what happend when he fought a contender with a potent right hand. He also fought in the cruiserweight division where he received a gift decision over Burnett and suffered two brutal beat downs at the hands of DeLeon and Qawi. Leon was actually too big for CW, he looked very drained at that weight. I'd say he had fringe contender in him, nothing more. Very lucky he was getting Ali when he did, just a few years earlier Ali would have beaten him in his sleep.

[BoxBuzz]

That's Boilermaker's memoirs. Fitzsimmons is about as comparable to Greb as Marvis is to Joe.

Saad, just for clarity, I think you are endorsing that Greb's resume is completely superior to Fitz's. Which though a hefty claim, I'm inclined to go along with. And once again....I'm winding people up needlessly with my Fitz statement.

I thought I had seen this debate earlier....with some taking the Fitz side of the argument.


The power of the written word in Greb's behalf is powerful mojo. But not being able to view the goods just "is what it is".

[SaadOffTheDeck]

People can take Fitz side if they are so inclined. Without wrong, right wouldn't be very satisfying.

[BoxBuzz]

I remember watching Spinks come up the ranks, I figured he was too green, but I was not terribly dissapointed having someone who I had actually met on more than one occasion ascend. I really did think that Leon had potential, and thought maybe just maybe he could continue to improve. I watched/ ok more "heard about" a relentless partying routine starting immediately after this fight. I thought to myself "if only he had his brother's discipline". I felt I knew he was going to go out in a quick blaze. Which he did.


I'd like some feedback, did anyone think he could have been a great? Did anyone think he even showed any promise in his early fights?

I honestly did, but "promises" are OFTEN broken. And maybe I was just caught up in the local hysteria. He seemed very unorthodox and appeared to show an interesting relentlessness seldom seen. I wondered if what he had would be effective at the top of the ladder, and when he pulled it off, I was as interested as I was mystified.

From afar, Leon winning the title was refreshing and he seemed a likeable character, but I never got the feeling he could be truly great, at least not in the heavyweight division.

I don't quite recall exactly when the cruiserweight division came about, but maybe that was Leon's true calling in the ring.

Ali at his best would have pitched a virtual shut out against Leon, assuming it went 15.

Leon always took too many punches. When he won the title he looked quite good and won it comfortably but even a totally shot Ali landed quite a few right hands on him. Ali had nothing on his punches by then but we all saw what happend when he fought a contender with a potent right hand. He also fought in the cruiserweight division where he received a gift decision over Burnett and suffered two brutal beat downs at the hands of DeLeon and Qawi. Leon was actually too big for CW, he looked very drained at that weight. I'd say he had fringe contender in him, nothing more. Very lucky he was getting Ali when he did, just a few years earlier Ali would have beaten him in his sleep.

I'll add that his opposition was so light previous to the Ali fight, that he was hard to quanitfy...he was getting hit by nobody's and looking like it didn't phase him...so one never knew just what he was made of...and until the Ali fight he looked the part of an exciting fighter.....but I have to say in the end he NEVER showed the goods not even once IMHO. His brother? He was another story....and I'll never figure out why Mike just up and ended his career with the Tyson fight. Sa la vie.

[BoxBuzz]

People can take Fitz side if they are so inclined. Without wrong, right wouldn't be very satisfying.

And Greb's case would easily meet the "preponderance of the evidence" litmus test. And it borders on "beyond a reasonable doubt"....and once the tapes are available I believe we should call the jury in.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

It wasn't that light. Righetti & LeDoux were pretty solid opponents for so early in a career. Certainly nothing to prep him for Ali, but he looked the role of an up and comer. Even after the Ali fights he pulled together once in a while like in the Mercado fight.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

People can take Fitz side if they are so inclined. Without wrong, right wouldn't be very satisfying.

And Greb's case would easily meet the "preponderance of the evidence" litmus test. And it borders on "beyond a reasonable doubt"....and once the tapes are available I believe we should call the jury in.

How does that differ from Fitzsimmons?

[BoxBuzz]

Just to be straight Saad, I believe that the written record for Greb is superior.

I read the info and render judgment.

That's just my take.


My very erratic take on Leon comes from personal dissapointment. I'll even offer you up a thanks for reminding me of his good moments.

I really liked those two they were sort of St Louis heros and Corey even filled the coliseum a few times based on their family "brand", and I wanted better for Leon for sure. They both (Mike and Leon) had good hearts I can assure you of that.

[scallum]

Frazier UD15 Ali


Pep
Moore
Jofre
Spinks

Same as this person

[raylawpc]

That's Boilermaker's memoirs. Fitzsimmons is about as comparable to Greb as Marvis is to Joe.

I'm sorry, but that is a ridiculous statement! (I hope you are just engaging in a bit of hyperbole.)

Fitzsimmons . . .

. . . won the world's middleweight title by defeating an all-time great;

. . . was only one of two middleweight champions to win the world's heavyweight title;

. . . was the first fighter to win a championship in three different divisions; and

. . . was one of the oldest champions to win a title when he took the light-heavyweight title in 1903. (He might have been the oldest by that time.)

And, like Greb, he regularly beat men who were bigger than him. (Not as regularly and not as frequently, but he did it.)

[klompton]

Greb would have easily secured the LHW championship if FIVE successive LHW champions hadnt ducked him. He was also given a good chance to annex the HW championship but was ducked there as well (and Dempsey is/was considered a more formidible opponent than Corbett). His eventual reign at MW would have easily been SIX years longer had he been given a title shot in 1917 when he was first promised one and at the very least by TWO years had he been given a title shot in 1921 when Johnny Wilson signed for such a fight and then promptly ran out on the match. Fitzsimmons accomplishments are glossy but he was fighting in a different era when it wasnt nearly as easy to duck someone.

[raylawpc]

Greb would have easily secured the LHW championship if FIVE successive LHW champions hadnt ducked him. He was also given a good chance to annex the HW championship but was ducked there as well (and Dempsey is/was considered a more formidible opponent than Corbett). His eventual reign at MW would have easily been SIX years longer had he been given a title shot in 1917 when he was first promised one and at the very least by TWO years had he been given a title shot in 1921 when Johnny Wilson signed for such a fight and then promptly ran out on the match. Fitzsimmons accomplishments are glossy but he was fighting in a different era when it wasnt nearly as easy to duck someone.

Okay.

But that doesn't mean that Fitz compares to Greb like "Marvis is to Joe." That's silly. Both Fitz and Greb were great fighters, with great resumes.

Saying somebody else was also a great fighter does not denigrate Greb's accomplishments.

[dempseyfire]

Spinks SD15 Ali (1978)
Jofre MD15 Legra (1973)
Frazier UD15 Ali (1971)
Moore KO11 Durelle (1958)
Pep UD15 Saddler (1949)

Frazier
Pep
Jofre
Moore
Spinks

Leon-Ali was a huge upset but Ali at that stage would've lost to a fair amount of the top 10 IMO. The other Ws here were vs fighters who wern't completely shot . .

[SaadOffTheDeck]

That's Boilermaker's memoirs. Fitzsimmons is about as comparable to Greb as Marvis is to Joe.

I'm sorry, but that is a ridiculous statement! (I hope you are just engaging in a bit of hyperbole.)

Fitzsimmons . . .

. . . won the world's middleweight title by defeating an all-time great;

. . . was only one of two middleweight champions to win the world's heavyweight title;

. . . was the first fighter to win a championship in three different divisions; and

. . . was one of the oldest champions to win a title when he took the light-heavyweight title in 1903. (He might have been the oldest by that time.)

And, like Greb, he regularly beat men who were bigger than him. (Not as regularly and not as frequently, but he did it.)

It was an exaggeration, but there is no way in hell Fitzsimmons rates as greater than Greb.

[raylawpc]

That's Boilermaker's memoirs. Fitzsimmons is about as comparable to Greb as Marvis is to Joe.

I'm sorry, but that is a ridiculous statement! (I hope you are just engaging in a bit of hyperbole.)

Fitzsimmons . . .

. . . won the world's middleweight title by defeating an all-time great;

. . . was only one of two middleweight champions to win the world's heavyweight title;

. . . was the first fighter to win a championship in three different divisions; and

. . . was one of the oldest champions to win a title when he took the light-heavyweight title in 1903. (He might have been the oldest by that time.)

And, like Greb, he regularly beat men who were bigger than him. (Not as regularly and not as frequently, but he did it.)

It was an exaggeration, but there is no way in hell Fitzsimmons rates as greater than Greb.

Don't think I ever said he did. Thanks for the clarification.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I'm sorry, but that is a ridiculous statement! (I hope you are just engaging in a bit of hyperbole.)

Fitzsimmons . . .

. . . won the world's middleweight title by defeating an all-time great;

. . . was only one of two middleweight champions to win the world's heavyweight title;

. . . was the first fighter to win a championship in three different divisions; and

. . . was one of the oldest champions to win a title when he took the light-heavyweight title in 1903. (He might have been the oldest by that time.)

And, like Greb, he regularly beat men who were bigger than him. (Not as regularly and not as frequently, but he did it.)

It was an exaggeration, but there is no way in hell Fitzsimmons rates as greater than Greb.

Don't think I ever said he did. Thanks for the clarification.

You didn't, Boilermaker did. I don't rate Fitz as highly as most, but he would be in my top 50.

[raylawpc]

Spinks SD15 Ali (1978)
Jofre MD15 Legra (1973)
Frazier UD15 Ali (1971)
Moore KO11 Durelle (1958)
Pep UD15 Saddler (1949)

Frazier over Ali
Jofre over Legra / Pep over Saddler (tie)
Moore over Durelle
Spinks over Ali

Two comments: Ali was shot and ripe for the picking in 1978 - we all knew it was going to happen soon, although many didn't expect Spinks to do it.

Durelle was a limited fighter, and I think most people expected Moore to win. Nobody expected it to be as tough as it was for Archie.

[klompton]

I rate Fitz pretty damn high, and thats coming from a Greb loyalist.

[BoxBuzz]

Spinks SD15 Ali (1978)
Jofre MD15 Legra (1973)
Frazier UD15 Ali (1971)
Moore KO11 Durelle (1958)
Pep UD15 Saddler (1949)

Frazier over Ali
Jofre over Legra / Pep over Saddler (tie)
Moore over Durelle
Spinks over Ali

Two comments: Ali was shot and ripe for the picking in 1978 - we all knew it was going to happen soon, although many didn't expect Spinks to do it.

Durelle was a limited fighter, and I think most people expected Moore to win. Nobody expected it to be as tough as it was for Archie.

Yep, the real story wasn't about Archie's fight with Durelle, Durelle got very lucky, but that can win the day on many occasions. The story was about how he really was all but totaly defeated within that round, no matter who the opponent, and how he simply would not accept defeat.

Similar to if Tyson would have come back let's say....uh come to think of it.....in ANY fight he was ever behind in, and ended up on the winning side lol.