Greatest Middleweights Ever?

[BoxBuzz]

Robinson really must be rated at WW, his MW is top five, but surely not #1. #3 at the highest.

Don't sell Monzon short, he has earned #3.

Acutally pound for pound across all weight classes, Monzon may not crack the top five, but I'm sure he'd be happy to have your support as #3. I'd have to reason with you to bring you to a more "sensible" rating, but with time I might be able to persuede you to temper your exuberance.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Robinson really must be rated at WW, his MW is top five, but surely not #1. #3 at the highest.

Don't sell Monzon short, he has earned #3.

Acutally pound for pound across all weight classes, Monzon may not crack the top five, but I'm sure he'd be happy to have your support as #3. I'd have to reason with you to bring you to a more "sensible" rating, but with time I might be able to persuede you to temper your exuberance.

When the ramblings start coming like this, it's clear you're in need of a nap.

[Ezzard]

Both Good points.

I never saw Monzon's respect for another fighter actually impact his performance. That's something you just might want to chew on a while.

I am on the Monzon side of the Monzon-Hagler debate. But there's not that much in it.

I think possibly was a little respectful of Griffith. He said so in an interview once anyway.

[klompton]

For the record footage does exist of:

Billy Miske
George Chip
Tommy Gibbons
George KO Brown
Mike Gibbons
Al McCoy
Jeff Smith
Battling Levinsky
Terry Keller
Augie Ratner
Mike ODowd
Mike McTigue
Gunboat Smith
Eddie McGoorty
Paul Sampson Koerner
Bill Brennan
Bartley Madden
Larry Williams
Soldier Jones
Bob Roper
Ted Jamieson
Jack Renault
Kid Norfolk
Gene Tunney
Tommy Loughran
Martin Burke
Frank Moody
Jimmy Slattery
Jimmy Delaney
Mickey Walker
and
Roland Todd


We may not know how Greb beat them but we know that every single one of those names had either an official loss to Greb or a newspaper loss to him. You are only as good as your competition (its why Greb is so great and Roy Jones is awful) and based on what we can see in his competition the fact that Greb can go against those guys and beat them (usually dominating them) says a lot.

[Ezzard]

For the record footage does exist of:

Billy Miske
George Chip
Tommy Gibbons
George KO Brown
Mike Gibbons
Al McCoy
Jeff Smith
Battling Levinsky
Terry Keller
Augie Ratner
Mike ODowd
Mike McTigue
Gunboat Smith
Eddie McGoorty
Paul Sampson Koerner
Bill Brennan
Bartley Madden
Larry Williams
Soldier Jones
Bob Roper
Ted Jamieson
Jack Renault
Kid Norfolk
Gene Tunney
Tommy Loughran
Martin Burke
Frank Moody
Jimmy Slattery
Jimmy Delaney
Mickey Walker
and
Roland Todd


We may not know how Greb beat them but we know that every single one of those names had either an official loss to Greb or a newspaper loss to him. You are only as good as your competition (its why Greb is so great and Roy Jones is awful) and based on what we can see in his competition the fact that Greb can go against those guys and beat them (usually dominating them) says a lot.

Klompton

You have done extensive research into Greb. All these guys you list are on film. Greb fought 100s of fights. Yet no footage.

Do you suspect, or have suspected, that footage may exist?

(a) Films are sitting in someone’s dusty old loft (happens a lot with old cinema movies being discovered)
(b) Someone has the films but won’t show them or even admit they exist

[klompton]

I hope footage exists and is waiting to be found but its anyones guess. It could just as likely all be rotten and turned to dust. There was the great find recently of the Mickey Walker-Mike Mctigue footage from 1925. I myself within the last year salvaged the 101 year old film of Jimmy Clabby knocking out Gus DeVitt in Australia. It was on nitrate film and was accompanied by footage of the 1910 Melbourne Cup. Some of the Melbourne Cup footage had deteriorated but all of the boxing footage was good. So there is hope that these films survive its just a matter of finding them and preserving them if they do. Below is a still from the film I found of Clabby standing next to Cyclone Johnny Thompson during a training session:

[Ezzard]

That must have been pretty exciting. And well done.

How much might a film of Greb be worth?

It’s a fascinating topic.

So, you don’t believe someone has a film and is keeping it quiet?

Good luck anyway.

[klompton]

I guess its possible someone is keeping a film of Greb secret but for what reason I wouldnt know. Id say if one exists in someone's property/collection its more likely they either dont know what they have or arent necessarily keeping it a secret they just dont go public with their collection. There are plenty of collectors out there who simply collect and dont really get involved with the community to the point that when they get something good everyone knows about it.

As for the worth of the films, well, I guess whatever the market will bare. It really depends on how much a collector is willing to pay, there isnt really a set value scale like there is for say comic books, or baseball cards. Films themselves, these days, are bulky, costly to store, and basically a dead or dying medium. Only a few guys still really actively collect FILM to them a Greb film might be worth a bundle. To the average fan just interested in SEEING Greb they would be satisfied paying a lot less for a copy of a DVD. Once that DVD is out there the guy with the film has even less bargaining power, this is one of the many reasons why some of these guys dont release stuff from their collection to the chagrin of the average fight buff. I guess the short answer is that anyone expecting to discover a Greb fight and then sell it for a million dollars is going to be disappointed. You might make a little off of it but it wont be enough to put your kids through college or buy a new car or anything even remotely that extravagant.

[raylawpc]

Robinson really must be rated at WW, his MW is top five, but surely not #1. #3 at the highest.

Don't sell Monzon short, he has earned #3.

Acutally pound for pound across all weight classes, Monzon may not crack the top five, but I'm sure he'd be happy to have your support as #3. I'd have to reason with you to bring you to a more "sensible" rating, but with time I might be able to persuede you to temper your exuberance.

I suspect Carlos Monzon wouldn't give a sh*t about what any of us think of him.

[raylawpc]

I hope footage exists and is waiting to be found but its anyones guess.

We do have footage of Greb sparring with Philadelphia Jack O'Brien.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMA6Pd6tT3Q

[klompton]

As a side note/trivia: The photo I posted of Clabby with Cyclone Johnny Thompson was taken at the Sir Joseph Banks Hotel in Botany Bay. When the American contingent of boxers (Clabby, Thompson, Billy Papke, and Ray Bronson led by T. S. Andrews) traveled to Australia in 1910 they set up their base of operations at that hotel and did most of their training there. This was the same hotel where two years earlier Jack Johnson made his training quarters as he prepared to face Tommy Burns for the HW championship.

[BoxBuzz]

Don't sell Monzon short, he has earned #3.

Acutally pound for pound across all weight classes, Monzon may not crack the top five, but I'm sure he'd be happy to have your support as #3. I'd have to reason with you to bring you to a more "sensible" rating, but with time I might be able to persuede you to temper your exuberance.

I suspect Carlos Monzon wouldn't give a sh*t about what any of us think of him.

I was of course speaking of "Carlos' Estate Executors" lol

[raylawpc]

Acutally pound for pound across all weight classes, Monzon may not crack the top five, but I'm sure he'd be happy to have your support as #3. I'd have to reason with you to bring you to a more "sensible" rating, but with time I might be able to persuede you to temper your exuberance.

I suspect Carlos Monzon wouldn't give a sh*t about what any of us think of him.

I was of course speaking of "Carlos' Estate Executors" lol

Well, true that! But I meant even if he was still alive.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Its true. He would threaten to kill half the people posting in this thread were he present.

[klompton]

It boggles the mind that some can actually hold a middleweight dominating LHWs and HWs against his MW status? "What does fighting heavier fighters mean at MW?" Talk about an assinine question. I guess had Hagler or Monzon actually deemed it advisable to step up and fight a bigger fighter we would hold it against them? What if they won? What if they lost? Starts getting pretty hard to justify when you frame the question that way doesnt it?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

It boggles the mind that some can actually hold a middleweight dominating LHWs and HWs against his MW status? "What does fighting heavier fighters mean at MW?" Talk about an assinine question. I guess had Hagler or Monzon actually deemed it advisable to step up and fight a bigger fighter we would hold it against them? What if they won? What if they lost? Starts getting pretty hard to justify when you frame the question that way doesnt it?

What's truly asinine, and that is the correct spelling the next time you want to attempt to belittle someone, is that in all of your research you haven't been able to grasp the concept of weight divisions. Greb's success at higher weights is what makes him one of the top 5 fighters in history, but listing Light heavyweight wins in a Middleweight discussion is quite irrelevant. And who is holding anything against him? You clearly invented that. But I'll answer your silly little question anyway. If Marvin hagler got knocked out in the first round by Vonzell Johnson or Monzon by Vicente Rondon it wouldn't affect their Middleweight standings at all. Brace yourself, I know it's mind boggling,but they would be Light Heavyweight fights.

Like I said, where is the love for Bobby Czyz? Where do you draw the line? I'll tell you, you evaluate fighters careers or you evaluate them in a specific division. Greb's Middleweight credentials are gaudy enough, he doesn't need retarded aid in the debate.

[The End]

I always thought the term was mind bottling .

[Goodnight, Irene]

I always thought the term was mind bottling .

Uh...no

[beaujack]

It boggles the mind that some can actually hold a middleweight dominating LHWs and HWs against his MW status? "What does fighting heavier fighters mean at MW?" Talk about an assinine question. I guess had Hagler or Monzon actually deemed it advisable to step up and fight a bigger fighter we would hold it against them? What if they won? What if they lost? Starts getting pretty hard to justify when you frame the question that way doesnt it?

What's truly asinine, and that is the correct spelling the next time you want to attempt to belittle someone, is that in all of your research you haven't been able to grasp the concept of weight divisions. Greb's success at higher weights is what makes him one of the top 5 fighters in history, but listing Light heavyweight wins in a Middleweight discussion is quite irrelevant. And who is holding anything against him? You clearly invented that. But I'll answer your silly little question anyway. If Marvin hagler got knocked out in the first round by Vonzell Johnson or Monzon by Vicente Rondon it wouldn't affect their Middleweight standings at all. Brace yourself, I know it's mind boggling,but they would be Light Heavyweight fights.

Like I said, where is the love for Bobby Czyz? Where do you draw the line? I'll tell you, you evaluate fighters careers or you evaluate them in a specific division. Greb's Middleweight credentials are gaudy enough, he doesn't need retarded aid in the debate.

With all sincerity. Rating one great MW over another is not a science but a personal opinion based on
a fighters record of the past...For you to imply that if a Harry Greb throughout his career was BOLD enough and SKILLED enough to challenge and BEAT great LHs, time and again, in a 300 fight career
is MEANINGLESS in judging his amazing skills ,than I say to you , I rest my case...
In horse racing the greatest horses are judged by the handicap [WEIGHT] thrust on their backs...
So too in boxing...A Sam Langford, Joe Walcott, Bob Fitzimmons, Jack Dillon, Mickey Walker, YES Harry Greb, Henry Armstrong, are considered immortals BECAUSE they tackled and beat great bigger men than themselves time and again....They all were famous because they accomplished this feat..

[klompton]

It boggles the mind that some can actually hold a middleweight dominating LHWs and HWs against his MW status? "What does fighting heavier fighters mean at MW?" Talk about an assinine question. I guess had Hagler or Monzon actually deemed it advisable to step up and fight a bigger fighter we would hold it against them? What if they won? What if they lost? Starts getting pretty hard to justify when you frame the question that way doesnt it?

What's truly asinine, and that is the correct spelling the next time you want to attempt to belittle someone, is that in all of your research you haven't been able to grasp the concept of weight divisions. Greb's success at higher weights is what makes him one of the top 5 fighters in history, but listing Light heavyweight wins in a Middleweight discussion is quite irrelevant. And who is holding anything against him? You clearly invented that. But I'll answer your silly little question anyway. If Marvin hagler got knocked out in the first round by Vonzell Johnson or Monzon by Vicente Rondon it wouldn't affect their Middleweight standings at all. Brace yourself, I know it's mind boggling,but they would be Light Heavyweight fights.

Like I said, where is the love for Bobby Czyz? Where do you draw the line? I'll tell you, you evaluate fighters careers or you evaluate them in a specific division. Greb's Middleweight credentials are gaudy enough, he doesn't need retarded aid in the debate.

Im not sure how this post got broken out into its own thread but the post below should have been in reply to the above:

Oooh. The grammer police! Original. The idea that a mw dominating higher weightclasses is meaningless is a joke. You mean to tell me that if hagler had challenged spinks or monzon challenged foster, and god forbid actually won, would be meaningless to their legacy in ANY weightclass? I think not.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

It boggles the mind that some can actually hold a middleweight dominating LHWs and HWs against his MW status? "What does fighting heavier fighters mean at MW?" Talk about an assinine question. I guess had Hagler or Monzon actually deemed it advisable to step up and fight a bigger fighter we would hold it against them? What if they won? What if they lost? Starts getting pretty hard to justify when you frame the question that way doesnt it?

What's truly asinine, and that is the correct spelling the next time you want to attempt to belittle someone, is that in all of your research you haven't been able to grasp the concept of weight divisions. Greb's success at higher weights is what makes him one of the top 5 fighters in history, but listing Light heavyweight wins in a Middleweight discussion is quite irrelevant. And who is holding anything against him? You clearly invented that. But I'll answer your silly little question anyway. If Marvin hagler got knocked out in the first round by Vonzell Johnson or Monzon by Vicente Rondon it wouldn't affect their Middleweight standings at all. Brace yourself, I know it's mind boggling,but they would be Light Heavyweight fights.

Like I said, where is the love for Bobby Czyz? Where do you draw the line? I'll tell you, you evaluate fighters careers or you evaluate them in a specific division. Greb's Middleweight credentials are gaudy enough, he doesn't need retarded aid in the debate.

With all sincerity. Rating one great MW over another is not a science but a personal opinion based on
a fighters record of the past...For you to imply that if a Harry Greb throughout his career was BOLD enough and SKILLED enough to challenge and BEAT great LHs, time and again, in a 300 fight career
is MEANINGLESS in judging his amazing skills ,than I say to you , I rest my case...
In horse racing the greatest horses are judged by the handicap [WEIGHT] thrust on their backs...
So too in boxing...A Sam Langford, Joe Walcott, Bob Fitzimmons, Jack Dillon, Mickey Walker, YES Harry Greb, Henry Armstrong, are considered immortals BECAUSE they tackled and beat great bigger men than themselves time and again....They all were famous because they accomplished this feat..

I said his Light Heavyweight wins are irrelevant to his Middleweight placement. You guys are just making shit up as you go. Based on Klompton logic, Charles is the greatest Middleweight of all time, his Heavyweight foray is much more impressive than Greb's. It's really impossible for someone not to be able grasp this so it's on me for bothering with trolls.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

It boggles the mind that some can actually hold a middleweight dominating LHWs and HWs against his MW status? "What does fighting heavier fighters mean at MW?" Talk about an assinine question. I guess had Hagler or Monzon actually deemed it advisable to step up and fight a bigger fighter we would hold it against them? What if they won? What if they lost? Starts getting pretty hard to justify when you frame the question that way doesnt it?

What's truly asinine, and that is the correct spelling the next time you want to attempt to belittle someone, is that in all of your research you haven't been able to grasp the concept of weight divisions. Greb's success at higher weights is what makes him one of the top 5 fighters in history, but listing Light heavyweight wins in a Middleweight discussion is quite irrelevant. And who is holding anything against him? You clearly invented that. But I'll answer your silly little question anyway. If Marvin hagler got knocked out in the first round by Vonzell Johnson or Monzon by Vicente Rondon it wouldn't affect their Middleweight standings at all. Brace yourself, I know it's mind boggling,but they would be Light Heavyweight fights.

Like I said, where is the love for Bobby Czyz? Where do you draw the line? I'll tell you, you evaluate fighters careers or you evaluate them in a specific division. Greb's Middleweight credentials are gaudy enough, he doesn't need retarded aid in the debate.

Im not sure how this post got broken out into its own thread but the post below should have been in reply to the above:

Oooh. The grammer police! Original. The idea that a mw dominating higher weightclasses is meaningless is a joke. You mean to tell me that if hagler had challenged spinks or monzon challenged foster, and god forbid actually won, would be meaningless to their legacy in ANY weightclass? I think not.

This post is as stupid in here as it was when you created a thread for it. You're the one that took a swipe at my intelligence and couldn't properly spell your insult.

[raylawpc]

What's truly asinine, and that is the correct spelling the next time you want to attempt to belittle someone, is that in all of your research you haven't been able to grasp the concept of weight divisions. Greb's success at higher weights is what makes him one of the top 5 fighters in history, but listing Light heavyweight wins in a Middleweight discussion is quite irrelevant. And who is holding anything against him? You clearly invented that. But I'll answer your silly little question anyway. If Marvin hagler got knocked out in the first round by Vonzell Johnson or Monzon by Vicente Rondon it wouldn't affect their Middleweight standings at all. Brace yourself, I know it's mind boggling,but they would be Light Heavyweight fights.

Like I said, where is the love for Bobby Czyz? Where do you draw the line? I'll tell you, you evaluate fighters careers or you evaluate them in a specific division. Greb's Middleweight credentials are gaudy enough, he doesn't need retarded aid in the debate.

With all sincerity. Rating one great MW over another is not a science but a personal opinion based on
a fighters record of the past...For you to imply that if a Harry Greb throughout his career was BOLD enough and SKILLED enough to challenge and BEAT great LHs, time and again, in a 300 fight career
is MEANINGLESS in judging his amazing skills ,than I say to you , I rest my case...
In horse racing the greatest horses are judged by the handicap [WEIGHT] thrust on their backs...
So too in boxing...A Sam Langford, Joe Walcott, Bob Fitzimmons, Jack Dillon, Mickey Walker, YES Harry Greb, Henry Armstrong, are considered immortals BECAUSE they tackled and beat great bigger men than themselves time and again....They all were famous because they accomplished this feat..

I said his Light Heavyweight wins are irrelevant to his Middleweight placement. You guys are just making shit up as you go. Based on Klompton logic, Charles is the greatest Middleweight of all time, his Heavyweight foray is much more impressive than Greb's. It's really impossible for someone not to be able grasp this so it's on me for bothering with trolls.

There is a major distinction between Greb and Charles. Charles accomplished his heavyweight exploits while a heavyweight; Greb defeated heavyweights while campaigning as a middleweight or small light-heavyweight.

[beaujack]

With all sincerity. Rating one great MW over another is not a science but a personal opinion based on
a fighters record of the past...For you to imply that if a Harry Greb throughout his career was BOLD enough and SKILLED enough to challenge and BEAT great LHs, time and again, in a 300 fight career
is MEANINGLESS in judging his amazing skills ,than I say to you , I rest my case...
In horse racing the greatest horses are judged by the handicap [WEIGHT] thrust on their backs...
So too in boxing...A Sam Langford, Joe Walcott, Bob Fitzimmons, Jack Dillon, Mickey Walker, YES Harry Greb, Henry Armstrong, are considered immortals BECAUSE they tackled and beat great bigger men than themselves time and again....They all were famous because they accomplished this feat..

I said his Light Heavyweight wins are irrelevant to his Middleweight placement. You guys are just making shit up as you go. Based on Klompton logic, Charles is the greatest Middleweight of all time, his Heavyweight foray is much more impressive than Greb's. It's really impossible for someone not to be able grasp this so it's on me for bothering with trolls.

There is a major distinction between Greb and Charles. Charles accomplished his heavyweight exploits while a heavyweight; Greb defeated heavyweights while campaigning as a middleweight or small light-heavyweight.

Ray, well said...Greb did these heroic deeds whilst a MW, while Charles beat great opposition weighing 175 pounds to 190 lbs...A SLIGHT distinction We might add...

[klompton]

With all sincerity. Rating one great MW over another is not a science but a personal opinion based on
a fighters record of the past...For you to imply that if a Harry Greb throughout his career was BOLD enough and SKILLED enough to challenge and BEAT great LHs, time and again, in a 300 fight career
is MEANINGLESS in judging his amazing skills ,than I say to you , I rest my case...
In horse racing the greatest horses are judged by the handicap [WEIGHT] thrust on their backs...
So too in boxing...A Sam Langford, Joe Walcott, Bob Fitzimmons, Jack Dillon, Mickey Walker, YES Harry Greb, Henry Armstrong, are considered immortals BECAUSE they tackled and beat great bigger men than themselves time and again....They all were famous because they accomplished this feat..

I said his Light Heavyweight wins are irrelevant to his Middleweight placement. You guys are just making shit up as you go. Based on Klompton logic, Charles is the greatest Middleweight of all time, his Heavyweight foray is much more impressive than Greb's. It's really impossible for someone not to be able grasp this so it's on me for bothering with trolls.

There is a major distinction between Greb and Charles. Charles accomplished his heavyweight exploits while a heavyweight; Greb defeated heavyweights while campaigning as a middleweight or small light-heavyweight.

Bingo!

Sorry Saad but the point is that trying to pull the grammer police out of your pocket on an internet forum is really the last bastion of hope for someone floating a flimsy argument.