Not sure this had been posted in this forum. If it has please forgive.
1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Willie Pep
4. Joe Louis
5. Harry Greb
6. Benny Leonard
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Roberto Duran
9. Jack Dempsey
10.Jack Johnson
11.Mickey Walker
12.Tony Canzoneri
13.Gene Tunney
14.Rocky Marciano
15.Joe Gans
16.Sam Langford
17.Julio Cesar Chavez
18.Jimmy Wilde
19.Stanley Ketchel
20.Barney Ross
21.Jimmy McLarnin
22.Archie Moore
23.Marcel Cerdan
24.Ezzard Charles
25.Sugar Ray Leonard
26.Joe Walcott
27.Jake LaMotta
28.Eder Jofre
29.Emile Griffith
30.Terry McGovern
31.George Foreman
32.Johnny Dundee
33.Jose Napoles
34.Pasqual Perez
35.Billy Conn
36.Ruben Olivares
37.Joe Frazier
38.Tommy Loughran
39.Sandy Saddler
40.Kid McCoy
41.Abe Attell
42.Evander Holyfield
43.George Dixon
44.Maxie Rosenbloom
45.Larry Holmes
46.Ted Kid Lewis
47.Marvin Hagler
48.Pernell Whitaker
49.Carlos Zarate
50.Thomas Hearns
51.Battling Nelson
52.Beau Jack
53.Ricardo Lopez
54.John L. Sullivan
55.Carlos Monzon
56.Alexis Arguello
57.Carmen Basilio
58.Pete Herman
59.Charley Burley
60.Ike Williams
61.Kid Gavilan
62.Jack Britton
63.Dick Tiger
64.Pancho Villa
65.Panama Al Brown
66.Bob Fitzsimmons
67.Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
68.Tiger Flowers
69.James J. Corbett
70.Tony Zale
71.Tommy Ryan
72.Georges Carpantier
73.Sonny Liston
74.Kid McCoy
75.Bob Foster
76.Freddie Welsh
77.Joe Jeanette
78.Jim Driscoll
79.Jersey Joe Walcott
80.Peter Jackson
81.Ad Wolgast
82.Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
83.Manuel Ortiz
84.James J. Jeffries
85.Salvador Sanchez
86.Jimmy Barry
87.Carlos Ortiz
88.Roy Jones Jr.
89.Wilfredo Gomez
90.Aaron Pryor
91.Bernard Hopkins
92.Mike Gibbons
93.Jack Delaney
94.Johnny Kilbane
95.Willie Ritchie
96.Wilfred Benitez
97.Packy MacFarland
98.Rocky Graziano
99.Lew Jenkins
100.Mike Tyson
Sugar's Latest Top 100 All Time Greats.
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dr_devious
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5349
- Joined: 29 Dec 2005, 09:19
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elmersalsa
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 15690
- Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 03:50
We got to see in what Bert bases this list. What are his parameters to place each all time great in history.
I could not swallow guys like Panama Al Brown not being in the top 50. Something is wrong there.
Carlos Monzon, Marvin Hagler, Pernell Whitaker and Sugar Ray Leonard at least they should have been in the top 20.
Joe Gans DEFINATELY is a top 10, so does Sam Langford.
Archie Moore on top of Ezzard Charles??? I would like to know Bert's view on that. Charles whupped him 3 times, convincingly. That is like saying Lamotta is on top of Robinson, even though he got whupped 5 times.
Chavez on top of Leonard????
Whitaker at 48???
I need some anwers Bert.
I could not swallow guys like Panama Al Brown not being in the top 50. Something is wrong there.
Carlos Monzon, Marvin Hagler, Pernell Whitaker and Sugar Ray Leonard at least they should have been in the top 20.
Joe Gans DEFINATELY is a top 10, so does Sam Langford.
Archie Moore on top of Ezzard Charles??? I would like to know Bert's view on that. Charles whupped him 3 times, convincingly. That is like saying Lamotta is on top of Robinson, even though he got whupped 5 times.
Chavez on top of Leonard????
Whitaker at 48???
I need some anwers Bert.
I agree, some top fighers seem to be too low. Rosenbloom is above Hagler, Holmes, Whittaker and Monzon.elmersalsa wrote:We got to see in what Bert bases this list. What are his parameters to place each all time great in history.
I could not swallow guys like Panama Al Brown not being in the top 50. Something is wrong there.
Carlos Monzon, Marvin Hagler, Pernell Whitaker and Sugar Ray Leonard at least they should have been in the top 20.
Joe Gans DEFINATELY is a top 10, so does Sam Langford.
Archie Moore on top of Ezzard Charles??? I would like to know Bert's view on that. Charles whupped him 3 times, convincingly. That is like saying Lamotta is on top of Robinson, even though he got whupped 5 times.
Chavez on top of Leonard????
Whitaker at 48???
I need some anwers Bert.
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Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3627
- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
Bert is a great old guy, but his ratings are very biased. He almost always favors fighters from the 1930's, 1940's and 1950's.
On the special that ESPN had recently, in his top 10 list he had Charles as his #7 heavyweight, of all time. He Joe Louis at #1 (as do some other people) When the other commentator, Brian Kenny, asked how he could put Louis ahead of Ali, all he could say was that Louis a hero to his generation.
I agree that Carlos Monzon at # 55 is just ridiculaus. Michael Spinks wasn't even on the list! Some of his picks were way out out there. Did anyone notice that he has Johnny Dundee at # 32? Marcel Cerdan was a great fighter, but # 24 of all time?
I've heard him on a lot of shows and he often shows favoritism towards guys he likes over those he doesn't. I mean, I hate Mike Tyson as much as anyone, but come on, he is only at #100? He had Jersey Joe Walcott 21 spots ahead of him at #79.
In his defense, no two people would have their top 100 the same. It is difficult to compare fighters from vastly different eras and weight classes. However, that being said, this list is just horrible.
Bert had some good stories, but don't put too much stock in his opinions.
On the special that ESPN had recently, in his top 10 list he had Charles as his #7 heavyweight, of all time. He Joe Louis at #1 (as do some other people) When the other commentator, Brian Kenny, asked how he could put Louis ahead of Ali, all he could say was that Louis a hero to his generation.
I agree that Carlos Monzon at # 55 is just ridiculaus. Michael Spinks wasn't even on the list! Some of his picks were way out out there. Did anyone notice that he has Johnny Dundee at # 32? Marcel Cerdan was a great fighter, but # 24 of all time?
I've heard him on a lot of shows and he often shows favoritism towards guys he likes over those he doesn't. I mean, I hate Mike Tyson as much as anyone, but come on, he is only at #100? He had Jersey Joe Walcott 21 spots ahead of him at #79.
In his defense, no two people would have their top 100 the same. It is difficult to compare fighters from vastly different eras and weight classes. However, that being said, this list is just horrible.
Bert had some good stories, but don't put too much stock in his opinions.
I agree that Carlos Monzon at # 55 is just ridiculaus. Michael Spinks wasn't even on the list! Some of his picks were way out out there. Did anyone notice that he has Johnny Dundee at # 32? Marcel Cerdan was a great fighter, but # 24 of all time?
Yup. That's how great Marcel was. Look at his record. It's incredible. Almost unprecedented for the times.
Yup. That's how great Marcel was. Look at his record. It's incredible. Almost unprecedented for the times.
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iceman21287
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 324
- Joined: 05 May 2005, 00:23
Sugar's early lists had Dempsey ahead of Ali. However, recently he has changed his mind about the placement of Dempsey and Ali.Ezzard wrote:I take it this is Bert Sugar...
Bert's a colourful chap with an eye for self-promotion. Quite a character... I'm pretty sure I heard him say that he ranks Dempsey as the #1 HW. And yet ehre he has Ali higher ina P4P debate...
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iceman21287
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 324
- Joined: 05 May 2005, 00:23
I always say this about Sugar's top 100 list:
He gets the 100 fighters right for the most part (I would only change a few), but the order in which he puts them is spastic, inconceivable, and, well, just plain insane. I really think messes around with the order on purpose just so he can get a kick out of listening to people bitch about it. I remember, oh, 15 years ago or so, Sugar's list had Jack Britton at #28. Now he has Britton at #62. What in the hell did Britton do in order to move 34 slots down his list? There is no rational explanation for this other than Bert doesn't really care how he ranks the top 100 outside the top 10 or so. I'm really starting to think that Bert may just use a random number generator to determine the order of everyone outside the top 20. I mean, I love Slapsie Maxie just as much as the next guy but lets be real here, there is no way anyone can make an argument for him being ahead of guys like Carlos Monzon...and not just ahead, 11 slots ahead! Sugar just does this to generate buzz. He's not any more serious about his rankings then the AP is about their pre-season top 25 rankings. He basically gathers the best fighters into a group, weeds out the ones that are clearly at the top of the list, and just throws the rest of them down onto the list to fill out the rankings.
He gets the 100 fighters right for the most part (I would only change a few), but the order in which he puts them is spastic, inconceivable, and, well, just plain insane. I really think messes around with the order on purpose just so he can get a kick out of listening to people bitch about it. I remember, oh, 15 years ago or so, Sugar's list had Jack Britton at #28. Now he has Britton at #62. What in the hell did Britton do in order to move 34 slots down his list? There is no rational explanation for this other than Bert doesn't really care how he ranks the top 100 outside the top 10 or so. I'm really starting to think that Bert may just use a random number generator to determine the order of everyone outside the top 20. I mean, I love Slapsie Maxie just as much as the next guy but lets be real here, there is no way anyone can make an argument for him being ahead of guys like Carlos Monzon...and not just ahead, 11 slots ahead! Sugar just does this to generate buzz. He's not any more serious about his rankings then the AP is about their pre-season top 25 rankings. He basically gathers the best fighters into a group, weeds out the ones that are clearly at the top of the list, and just throws the rest of them down onto the list to fill out the rankings.
It is a piece of shit. They keep wheeling this guy out. He hasnt got a clue.DoubleM wrote:Piece of shit, ain't it?
I mean, just seeing Carlos Monzon at #55 tells you all you need to know. He's top fifteen.
Sanchez, Arguello, Monzon and Tyson too low.
Holyfield too high.
Sugar is biased towards old timers and biased against fighters he dislikes personally.
Sure there were some great fighters pre 1950 but some of the modern ones were great too.
Stick Sugar in a home to dribble and piss himself.
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Professor X
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 130
- Joined: 22 Jun 2004, 10:42
[quote="KO Atrist"][quote="DoubleM"]Piece of shit, ain't it?
I mean, just seeing Carlos Monzon at #55 tells you all you need to know. He's top fifteen.[/quote]
It is a piece of shit. They keep wheeling this guy out. He hasnt got a clue.
Sanchez, Arguello, Monzon and Tyson too low.
Holyfield too high.
Sugar is biased towards old timers and biased against fighters he dislikes personally.
Sure there were some great fighters pre 1950 but some of the modern ones were great too.
Stick Sugar in a home to dribble and piss himself.[/quote]
Well, Holyfield, undisputeted cruiser champ and three times, at least, heavy champ is in fact too low on that list. So, you're definitely full of shit too, no less than Sugar.
Arguello and Sanchez are too low. Tyson is pure OD shit...totally overrated. Show an ability to put three punches together and that punk falls...you do the math.
Elmersalsa is on time as usual.
I mean, just seeing Carlos Monzon at #55 tells you all you need to know. He's top fifteen.[/quote]
It is a piece of shit. They keep wheeling this guy out. He hasnt got a clue.
Sanchez, Arguello, Monzon and Tyson too low.
Holyfield too high.
Sugar is biased towards old timers and biased against fighters he dislikes personally.
Sure there were some great fighters pre 1950 but some of the modern ones were great too.
Stick Sugar in a home to dribble and piss himself.[/quote]
Well, Holyfield, undisputeted cruiser champ and three times, at least, heavy champ is in fact too low on that list. So, you're definitely full of shit too, no less than Sugar.
Arguello and Sanchez are too low. Tyson is pure OD shit...totally overrated. Show an ability to put three punches together and that punk falls...you do the math.
Elmersalsa is on time as usual.
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
I think, as far as greatest fighter goes...in my personal opinion, was Sam Langford. He fought everywhere from Welterweight to Heavyweight, bested virtually every black fighter there was, when blacks were barred from facing white men---and when he did face white men he put them away easy.
He faced Jack Johnson before he was champion, losing a controversial decision---and when Johnson was champion, he pleed and begged Johnson for a rematch---Johnson did no such thing, and later said it wasn't because he was ducking Langford but that white challengers made him more money.
Pick a name of almost any prominant fighter from the career spanning over 20yrs of Sam Langford---and he faced them at least one time. For a man no bigger than a welterweight he blew away giant sized fighters, truly knocking them out, and in the lighter weights out did them.
As far as Sugar ray Robinson being the best---it can be argued, winning the title 5x's and also holding the Welterweight crown as well...thats hard to beat. But if you think about it he lost and won it back from Gene Fullmer, who was tough as nails and could punch---but would be considered absoloutely horrible today, even then he was considered clumsy.
I could pick and prod over Robinson's career and tear apart Sugar's list and say that Sullivan should be higher than Emile Griffith or whatever...but I won't. Myself I would rather have a debate over each fighter one by one---and rank them by DIVISIONS---cus ALL-TIME rankings are the hardest to determine.
He faced Jack Johnson before he was champion, losing a controversial decision---and when Johnson was champion, he pleed and begged Johnson for a rematch---Johnson did no such thing, and later said it wasn't because he was ducking Langford but that white challengers made him more money.
Pick a name of almost any prominant fighter from the career spanning over 20yrs of Sam Langford---and he faced them at least one time. For a man no bigger than a welterweight he blew away giant sized fighters, truly knocking them out, and in the lighter weights out did them.
As far as Sugar ray Robinson being the best---it can be argued, winning the title 5x's and also holding the Welterweight crown as well...thats hard to beat. But if you think about it he lost and won it back from Gene Fullmer, who was tough as nails and could punch---but would be considered absoloutely horrible today, even then he was considered clumsy.
I could pick and prod over Robinson's career and tear apart Sugar's list and say that Sullivan should be higher than Emile Griffith or whatever...but I won't. Myself I would rather have a debate over each fighter one by one---and rank them by DIVISIONS---cus ALL-TIME rankings are the hardest to determine.
Re: Sugar's Latest Top 100 All Time Greats.
http://img399. .us/img399/934/japan4hi.gifBoxBuzz wrote:9. Jack Dempsey
Re: Sugar's Latest Top 100 All Time Greats.
From: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/5578 ... e/page/101
1 - Sugar Ray Robinson
2 - Henry Armstrong
3 - Willie Pep
4 - Joe Louis
5 - Muhammad Ali
6 - Benny Leonard
7 - Roberto Duran
8 - Jack Dempsey
9 - Jack Johnson
10-Sam Langford
11-Harry Greb
12-Joe Gans
13-Gene Tunney
14-Rocky Marciano
15-Sugar Ray Leonard
16-Julio Cesar Chavez
17-Mickey Walker
18-Archie Moore
19-Jimmy Wilde
20-Stanley Ketchel
21-Tony Canzoneri
22-Barney Ross
23-Ezzard Charles
24-George Foreman
25-Marvin Hagler
26-Marcel Cerdan
27-Manny Pacquaio
28-Jose Napoles
29-Emile Griffith
30-Eder Jofre
31-Floyd Mayweather Jr
32-Jimmy McLarnin
33-Sandy Saddler
34-Ruben Olivares
35-Terry McGovern
36-Jake LaMotta
37-Carlos Monzon
38-Evander Hoylfield
39-Joe Frazier
40-Roy Jones Junior
41-Pernell Whitaker
42-Kid Chocolate
43-Ted Kid Lewis
44-Tommy Hearns
45-Alexis Arguello
46-Bernard Hopkins
47-Larry Holmes
48-Billy Conn
49-Ike Williams
50-Salvador Sanchez
51-Pascual Perez
52-Dick Tiger
53-Oscar De La Hoya
54-Kid Gavilan
55-Carmen Basilio
56-Charley Burley
57-Tommy Loughran
58-Tiger Flowers
59-Aaron Pryor
60-Beau Jack
61-Mike Tyson
62-Panama Al Brown
63-Johnny Dundee
64-Abe Attell
65-Lennox Lewis
66-Pancho Villa
67-Fighting Harada
68-James. J. Corbett
69-Bob Foster
70-Barbados Joe Walcott
71-Wilfredo Gomez
72-Wilfred Benitez
73-Carlos Zarate
74-Sonny Liston
75-Manuel Ortiz
76-Carlos Ortiz
77-Ricardo Lopez
78-Tony Zale
79-Bob Fitzsimmons
80-George Dixon
81-Khaosai Galaxy
82-Michael Spinks
83-Mike McCallum
84-Charles Kid McCoy
85-"Old Bones" Joe Brown
86-Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
87-Felix Trinidad
88-Marco Antonio Barrera
89-Azumah Nelson
90-Erik Morales
91-Joe Calzaghe
92-Floyd Patterson
93-Bob Montgomery
94-Michael Carbajal
95-Max Schmeling
96-Humberto Gonzalez
97-Lew Jenkins
98-Miguel Canto
99-Nicolino Locche
100 Shane Mosley
1 - Sugar Ray Robinson
2 - Henry Armstrong
3 - Willie Pep
4 - Joe Louis
5 - Muhammad Ali
6 - Benny Leonard
7 - Roberto Duran
8 - Jack Dempsey
9 - Jack Johnson
10-Sam Langford
11-Harry Greb
12-Joe Gans
13-Gene Tunney
14-Rocky Marciano
15-Sugar Ray Leonard
16-Julio Cesar Chavez
17-Mickey Walker
18-Archie Moore
19-Jimmy Wilde
20-Stanley Ketchel
21-Tony Canzoneri
22-Barney Ross
23-Ezzard Charles
24-George Foreman
25-Marvin Hagler
26-Marcel Cerdan
27-Manny Pacquaio
28-Jose Napoles
29-Emile Griffith
30-Eder Jofre
31-Floyd Mayweather Jr
32-Jimmy McLarnin
33-Sandy Saddler
34-Ruben Olivares
35-Terry McGovern
36-Jake LaMotta
37-Carlos Monzon
38-Evander Hoylfield
39-Joe Frazier
40-Roy Jones Junior
41-Pernell Whitaker
42-Kid Chocolate
43-Ted Kid Lewis
44-Tommy Hearns
45-Alexis Arguello
46-Bernard Hopkins
47-Larry Holmes
48-Billy Conn
49-Ike Williams
50-Salvador Sanchez
51-Pascual Perez
52-Dick Tiger
53-Oscar De La Hoya
54-Kid Gavilan
55-Carmen Basilio
56-Charley Burley
57-Tommy Loughran
58-Tiger Flowers
59-Aaron Pryor
60-Beau Jack
61-Mike Tyson
62-Panama Al Brown
63-Johnny Dundee
64-Abe Attell
65-Lennox Lewis
66-Pancho Villa
67-Fighting Harada
68-James. J. Corbett
69-Bob Foster
70-Barbados Joe Walcott
71-Wilfredo Gomez
72-Wilfred Benitez
73-Carlos Zarate
74-Sonny Liston
75-Manuel Ortiz
76-Carlos Ortiz
77-Ricardo Lopez
78-Tony Zale
79-Bob Fitzsimmons
80-George Dixon
81-Khaosai Galaxy
82-Michael Spinks
83-Mike McCallum
84-Charles Kid McCoy
85-"Old Bones" Joe Brown
86-Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
87-Felix Trinidad
88-Marco Antonio Barrera
89-Azumah Nelson
90-Erik Morales
91-Joe Calzaghe
92-Floyd Patterson
93-Bob Montgomery
94-Michael Carbajal
95-Max Schmeling
96-Humberto Gonzalez
97-Lew Jenkins
98-Miguel Canto
99-Nicolino Locche
100 Shane Mosley
Re: Sugar's Latest Top 100 All Time Greats.
It's Jack Dempsey, way up in the top ten that gets me.
Re: Sugar's Latest Top 100 All Time Greats.
The same thing annoys me. I don't mean Jack Dempsey in particular but I have found that people rate Heavyweights differently in different lists and it irritates me.DaveBoyMorrison wrote:It's Jack Dempsey, way up in the top ten that gets me.
For example, someone might rate Jack Dempsey as 8th in his top Heavyweight list (behind Frazier and Foreman)
then later he would rank Jack Dempsey around 15ish in the P4P list (ahead of Frazier and Foreman)
There's just no consistency there. And I sometimes think that the Heavyweights should be excluded from the P4P conversations. (As most of them only fought at the one weight anyway)
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Goodnight, Irene
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 9463
- Joined: 24 Sep 2007, 04:43
Re: Sugar's Latest Top 100 All Time Greats.
No HW was good enough for the top-10.