Which fighters had the best chance to defeat a prime Ali????

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 30 Aug 2005, 00:53

i personnaly think ali is the 2nd greatest heavyweight ever and if he fought joe louis the greatest of all time, i think it would have been a close fight and joe would have caught him and knocked ali out in 13.

so i think joe louis knocks out muhammad ali (TKO 13)

other fights i felt would do well against him....

Joe Frazier- I think in alis prime, ali wins unamimous decision. 9 rounds to 6 or 10 rounds to 5. ali was not far from his prime against frazier, but still didnt have his same speed.

Rocky Marciano- I think ali wins close decison perhaps 8 rounds to 7. i think ali will be ahead with marciano winning the last 3 or 4 rounds and possibly flooring ali. ali dances awya and boxed early and builds a large points lead on the rock. marciano picks off where chuvalo left off except he hits a lot harder and it wears ali down late. i see ali possibly dropping marciano early if he catches him off balance.

Jack Dempsey- I think cause of his deadly left hook as well as having KO power in his right hand, i think dempsey has the best chance of beating ali. cuase ali was sucseptible to a left hook, and marcianos punch was a overhand right , but dempseys big punch was the left hook.
dempsey also had the speed and aggresion to get inside and flurry li with punches not giving him any room. i can defintely see ali getting floored in this fight. dempsey would stun ali a lot and ali wopuld have to dance and jab and sometimes dempsey swung to wide and ali would take advantage of that. i see ali or dempsey winning a close decision.

jack johnson- johnsons defensive style could give ali fits much like norton did. i see ali winning the unanimous decision though cause he will be too fast for johnson and johnson will have to generate some offense and show some aggresion if he wants to win the decision. i see ali 9 rounds to 6.

Mike tyson- Mike tyson has a veyr good chance of knocking ali out early and thats his only chance. i can see ali getting cocky and getting cuaght iwth a vicious uppercut. i always said in this fnatasy matchup , ali stops tyson late, but gets floored early.

James jeffries- the computer tournament marty woroner had jeffries beating ali. ali was furious about the outcome, calling jeffries "the slowest and clumsiest heavyweight of all time."

john2345 · Post by **john2345** » 30 Aug 2005, 04:10

What about Liston in HIS prime? A younger Liston would have been faster and less liable to lose confidence against the "float like a butterfly" style - and indeed against the "sting like a bee" blows that would have come his way.

It's difficult to make a case for Sonny based purely on the first Ali fight (ignore the second as a form guide) as he clearly underestimated his opponent, wasn't trained to the minute, and was probably expecting to blast Ali away inside a round or two. Also there was the "My eyes! I can't see..." incident.... but as I recall the fight there were a few moments where Liston started landing and Ali didn't look too confident under fire.

Ali later said that Liston was his toughest opponent.... if the Liston of the Folley, Williams, Valdes, De John, etc etc fights had turned up, who knows...?

Just a bit of wishful thinking from a life long Liston fan maybe...?!

J

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 30 Aug 2005, 05:07

I can see Louis KOing Ali. I think Joe was too much of a shuffler to catch Ali. He'd tag Ali and have him hurt but I see Ali moving to a close 15 round UD.

I think Dempsey has a great chance because of his style and his left hook. Jack could win 1 of 3 on a SD. Frazier the same and Rocky too (but I think Rocky was not quite as quick as Jack and Joe and would have a toughter time). The swarmers would all have good nights against Ali although I think he beats them more often than not.

The other guys are the defensive masters like Johnson, Tunney and Holmes. These guys would give Ali trouble. I'd pick him in close fights against them.

Sherlock · Post by **Sherlock** » 30 Aug 2005, 06:40

I think a prime Louis, possibly a younger Liston than in their real meetings, Jack Johnson, and I think that a Holmes in his prime edges him.

I don't think anyone knockouts him out and all are down to the wire close.

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » 30 Aug 2005, 07:17

Joe Louis is about the only HW I see coming near to beating a prime Ali.

Dempsey, Marciano, Frazier, etc.. would be relentless but I think Ali would have coasted to UD's against Jack & Joe. I still think the Rock would have been cut up too badly to take this the distance. Not taking anything away from Rocky I just think he cut too easily.

In his prime Ali was a step above Holmes. Larry was good but not great.

Tyson like the aforementioned bangers would have given Ali trouble in the early rounds but his mentality was all over the place and a disciplined Ali would have stopped him in the middle to late rounds.

No IMO only the Bomber was equal to or greater than Ali.

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 30 Aug 2005, 09:38

I guess almost every decent HW champion would have a chance in their day to beat any other champ.

But I`d go for Joe Louis, because once he had a fighter hurt he wouldn`t let them off, and Ali could be caught.

Evander Holyfield, because he to would have had all the tools and know-how, and speed.

A younger Liston than the one he did face.
And a real Mike Tyson.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 30 Aug 2005, 17:18

There's a few, can't say as I agree with any of those earlier names but these guys might be able to get the job done.

1. Superman unless ali uses kryptonite gloves
2. Bealzubub unless ali wears a cross into the ring
3. The Hulk unless ali knocks him out before Bruce Banner morphs
4. God Almighty but he would not want the fame or attention and might take a dive
5. The Five headed beast of Algernon 5...but ali would tie the first four heads into a knot before the 5th one pummeled him into a very close 15 round split decision loss.

That's my take on this. But I have to admit I kind of like Ali and could be biased. Now if you start getting into 2 out of 3 he probably eeks out some surprises even against this high caliber opposition.

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 30 Aug 2005, 17:42

Nobody!!!!!

tiredoldngrey · Post by **tiredoldngrey** » 30 Aug 2005, 18:19

I think Louis would have a real live chance as would Marciano and Dempsey as Ali didn't handle pressure well and those two would press him and both offer more offensively than Frazier. I'd like to see Ali in against a guy that would box and move and not necessarily try to chase Ali; thus, I would like to see him fight Tunney or Charles or Walcott. Any of those three would have a decent to better than decent chance of winning. Finally, and here is one that will draw howls but think on it a second, and that would be Max Baer. He was very unorthodox but he could box a bit from time to time, when he was in shape (sort of), he took a real good punch for most of his career and he had that right hand. The way that ali flicked his jab- it didn't come from his shoulder- and rolled it like a wheel while skipping to his left... I think at some point it is inevitable that he'd get nailed with that right hand especially if Baer had any luck at all landing his own telephone pole of a jab.

tennessee · Post by **tennessee** » 30 Aug 2005, 19:50

larry homles, could have beaten a young ali, just like he did an old ali. i love louis, but to think he could have beaten ali is crazy.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 30 Aug 2005, 20:14

tennessee......No difference between the early ali and the Holmes fight? So he stayed in his prime right up until the 14th round with Holmes?
So uh....Holmes exposed him for what he was all along? Old? Hmmm

you know, that might not be the best analysis I have ever heard.

But thats just me.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 30 Aug 2005, 20:16

prime Ali would decisevly outpoint a prime holmes IMO. 11 rounds to 4.

holmes can not beat ali at his own game.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 30 Aug 2005, 20:19

tenessee, how could u say "to think louis would beat a prime ali is crazy".

idk about u, but most people consider louis at least a top 2 heavyweight of all time. and a decent # of people do think joe louis would be the best man to beat ali. as for me i think louis would stop ali late in an even fight.

vagabundo55 · Post by **vagabundo55** » 30 Aug 2005, 20:21

Joe Louis could beat Ali in his prime.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 31 Aug 2005, 14:13

I know I sound like I am just bias in my earlier contribution, it is my sense of humor. But just on skill, talent, ability and nothing more not on popularity, I do beleive ali wins 2 out of 3 with any heavyweight that ever lived to date.

Any of the elite class could probably beat any other elite champion on any given night but I think the odds are he takes any series with any name.

At this point with my humor (stated above) I doubt I have crediblity but it's not just rumpswabbin it's analysis. I know I'm not that far out of line because almost everyone has him in the top 5 and most in the top 2.

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 31 Aug 2005, 16:17

Gordon wrote:
In his prime Ali was a step above Holmes. Larry was good but not great.

Father forgive them they no not what they do(say).

Rory McCloskey · Post by **Rory McCloskey** » 31 Aug 2005, 16:58

boxbuzz those are ridiculous... cmon if anyone can beat ali its most certainly me. i could ko him out in 1-2 rounds

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 31 Aug 2005, 18:12

Who would have the best chance of beating Ali in his prime? I'm taking it that you mean from 1964-1967.
Well nobody would. If Foreman, Frazier, and Shavers couldn't knock him out, then nobody would. They fought him after his prime and landed many more shots than they would have during his prime and never came close.

So to beat him, his opponent would have to win a decision. No one would have been able to do that either. He was way too fast and was a very accurate puncher.

Joe Louis in his prime (1935-1942) was probably the 2nd best heavyweight, but he wouldn't have beaten Ali. Ali would have either won by a comfortable decision or stopped Louis with an accumilation of punches. Ali would have simply been able to hit Louis with clean punches much more often that Louis could hit him.

Marciano would have been stopped by cuts or lost a lopsided decision. As with Louis, Ali would have little trouble hitting him and Marciano would have had a lot of trouble hitting Ali.
Actually, Johnson (Jack not Kirk) may have given him the most trouble, but Ali would have beaten him as well.

The arguement that you hear sometimes is that Louis or Marciano or whoever would catch Ali in the later rounds. Even if they did, so what? We aren't talking about Billy Conn or Jersey Joe Walcott here. They wouldn't be able to knock him out.

Remember, Ali won every fight in his prime (1964-1967) easily. That isn't the case with any other heavyweight.

Sherlock · Post by **Sherlock** » 31 Aug 2005, 19:20

Ambling Alp wrote:If Foreman, Frazier, and Shavers couldn't knock him out, then nobody would.

Henry Cooper nearly did in 63, had Ali down and out on his feet at the end of the 4th. Any fighter can be kayoed, no matter how good your chin may be if the punch lands clean and accurate.

Ambling Alp wrote:Joe Louis in his prime (1935-1942) was probably the 2nd best heavyweight, but he wouldn't have beaten Ali. Ali would have either won by a comfortable decision or stopped Louis with an accumilation of punches. Ali would have simply been able to hit Louis with clean punches much more often that Louis could hit him.

Just because you have speed doesn't mean you can outbox everyone (e.g. Pep, the master boxer who was stopped by the skilled boxer puncher Saddler). Louis had the skills to negate that speed advantage and outbox Ali. Louis had the best combinations and fluid boxing and punching style than any other heavy. And I think the Louis who showed up and destroyed Schmeling (his signature fight) could stop any heavy, including Ali.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 31 Aug 2005, 20:05

Sherlock, your right Cooper may have had him in the most trouble but even in that case his recuperative powers were awesome. Even a ho hum puncher can do damage if your not expecting it, that may be the only punch he didnt see coming in his early years. I agree that Louis could have beat him I think a few others as well, when your in that class anything can happen.

Where you and I differ is that I think Ali would win in the series. I think you believe Joe would win 2 out of 3. And herein is what makes boxing so interesting. The top five greats are just wrecking machines some with power some with speed some with strategy and varying combinations of all three.

The ones I detest are "strategy only" clowns. Like Ruiz, I wish they could wire up boxers to some kind of electrical current and when they broke the rules they recieved a tazer like shock. Forcing them to follow the rules. I'm sort of thinking Tszyu would still be champion and Ruiz would not be. But I digress......as I always do.

revporl · Post by **revporl** » 01 Sep 2005, 06:03

I'd like to think that no one could have beaten Ali in the mid 60's. I suppose realistically, Louis would have had a chance, although on balance I think Ali had the intellegence to find a way around him. And possibly Holmes at a stretch, if he could keep behind that jab

Sherlock · Post by **Sherlock** » 01 Sep 2005, 06:48

BoxBuzz wrote:Sherlock, your right Cooper may have had him in the most trouble but even in that case his recuperative powers were awesome. Even a ho hum puncher can do damage if your not expecting it, that may be the only punch he didnt see coming in his early years. I agree that Louis could have beat him I think a few others as well, when your in that class anything can happen.

Though he did benefit from a split glove that gave him extra time in his corner. And you got my point perfectly, anyone can be stopped by anybody at anytime.

Ali could give any fighter trouble and may win in a series, but I think any boxer puncher could give him trouble (i.e. Louis, Holmes, Liston, Johnson) that didn't get intimidated by Ali. Nobody's brought up Ali's best quality, his ability to get fighter's off there gameplan by angering them. Guys like Norton could give him trouble, not because his fights with Ali later, but his style and mindset. Though Ali would beat him more easliy in his prime, it would still be competitive. And I think Tunney could give him a run for his money too.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 01 Sep 2005, 07:11

Ali in the 1960's pre layoff was quicker but he did get tagged a few times. He had slowed in his comeback but he seemed craftier and seemed to get hurt far less. In the 1960s Ali might have been closer to his physical peak but I think the 1970s Ali beats him.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 01 Sep 2005, 10:29

The reason Cooper had him in trouble is I don't think Clay believed he could be hurt, but he sure found out at that moment. He learned from that and never let the big hitters catch him with a punch he didnt' see comin.

Half of having a great chin is having great eyes.

tiredoldngrey · Post by **tiredoldngrey** » 01 Sep 2005, 13:58

Cooper hurt ali because he noticed and took advantage of a very simple error in boxing basics that Ali made all the time; it is the exact same one that Eddie Futch had Norton work off of and that is the simple mistake of pulling straight back from punches. He did this with every punch and it is generally safe with straight punches but not with hooks because the range of the hook can be altered in flight by adjusting the bend in the elbow. Cooper jabbed - or feinted, long while since I've seen this fight- twice and Ali backed stright up each time, putting himself on the ropes and from there he tried to lean back and away from the hook and got nailed. In fact every knockdown he suffered in his career (except the Wepner push down) was from a hook as he pulled straight back. Given that at the other basic flaw of his right hand not being around to block jabs when he jabbed, I don't think it a stretch to argue that there are any number of smart fast HW boxers that could've beaten him because Norton was essentially nothing and he beat li.