What Is The LOWEST You Could Rate...

[BoxBuzz]

Anything that doesn't mirror your biased opinion is anti-Ali. I've never come across a poster that loves a fighter as much as you love him.

Buzz might be a close second . . .

One of my favourite forum moments when I was arguing Lyle was stopped too soon, and that had Ali been identical trouble, theres nil chance that bout wouldve been stopped, to which Buzz replied if favouritism to Ali existed, then if anything wouldnt it be more likely Ali would be stopped even sooner, to protect him from punishment?

There ya go....pure and simple logic, from a neutral observer!

By the way I like Joe Frazier every bit as much as I like Ali, I appreciate Foreman too.

But Archie Moore is at the top of the list with Ezzard Charles not far behind.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Not from 1 to 6. He is from 1 to 2. And that's about the right place we should put him. The great Roberto Duran was so dominant at lightweight that I just cannot place him lower than #2. Nobody is invincible, but I cannot see no lightweight of any era beating him.

Pretty sure thats the definition of invincible...

I think he left out the word ALMOST. The fact he avenged his only defeat at Lightweight, twice, and in brutal fashion, says he is as good as invincible at 135. I have him at #1 in the division for that reason, should any other Light from any era beat him, he would definitely win the rematch, and without mercy. He was almost a savage at Lightweight.

Only if you consider DeJesus the #2 LW of all-time (which he obviously wasnt), and what is this crap about Duran, "definitely winning a rematch with any LW ever" supposed to mean!? That is laugh-out-loud stupid.

[Seamus]

As a few of us have pointed out before and will no doubt have to point out again in the future, Duran's opposition at LW was fairly decent, but compared to Benny Leonard's it was weak.

[raylawpc]

Not from 1 to 6. He is from 1 to 2. And that's about the right place we should put him. The great Roberto Duran was so dominant at lightweight that I just cannot place him lower than #2. Nobody is invincible, but I cannot see no lightweight of any era beating him.

Pretty sure thats the definition of invincible...

I think he left out the word ALMOST. The fact he avenged his only defeat at Lightweight, twice, and in brutal fashion, says he is as good as invincible at 135. I have him at #1 in the division for that reason, should any other Light from any era beat him, he would definitely win the rematch, and without mercy. He was almost a savage at Lightweight.

One hopes you are being facetious here, as you claim you were on the greatest middleweights discussion. It is hard to see how a rematch victory over DeJesus means Duran could avenge a loss to any other ATG lightweight, "without mercy." Unless you were being facetious, you will have to connect the dots for us . . .

[BoxBuzz]

Ok...just what is it about everyone who's not on film being a near superman? Just think about it.

Maybe it was the times, or the vitamins, or was it the hard life before film?

I'm not ready to promote everyone to the top of the list just because they are part of the mysterious "unseen".

....and I'm one of the few here who can remember the days before television.

[elmersalsa]

As a few of us have pointed out before and will no doubt have to point out again in the future, Duran's opposition at LW was fairly decent, but compared to Benny Leonard's it was weak.

And Benny Leonard's opposition at lightweight compared to the great Ike Williams at that same weight class was also weak. Even at that, at their very best, they could not win a 3-fight series with the great Roberto Duran....None of them!

[BoxBuzz]

As a few of us have pointed out before and will no doubt have to point out again in the future, Duran's opposition at LW was fairly decent, but compared to Benny Leonard's it was weak.

And Benny Leonard's opposition at lightweight compared to the great Ike Williams at that same weight class was also weak. Even at that, at their very best, they could not win a 3-fight series with the great Roberto Duran....None of them!

Elmer, maybe it's just my faulty memory, but I've seen you try to keep many of us sober when we talk Duran up too much. Now based on what you are saying here, who could possibly be a better lightweight? By the way, I'm one of the ones who probably "over rate" Duran. But it all goes back to the question..... what am I going to believe? What the writer's say...or my own lying eyes? lol.

He's someone when you watch him fight, if your not amazed, then you are not capable of being amazed. One of the best fights I can imagine, from all my eye has seen, would probably be Whitaker vs Duran at lightweight. One in which I think Duran wins, but many of us would claim that "Whitaker was robbed". lol

[elmersalsa]

As a few of us have pointed out before and will no doubt have to point out again in the future, Duran's opposition at LW was fairly decent, but compared to Benny Leonard's it was weak.

And Benny Leonard's opposition at lightweight compared to the great Ike Williams at that same weight class was also weak. Even at that, at their very best, they could not win a 3-fight series with the great Roberto Duran....None of them!

Elmer, maybe it's just my faulty memory, but I've seen you try to keep many of us sober when we talk Duran up too much. Now based on what you are saying here, who could possibly be a better lightweight? By the way, I'm one of the ones who probably "over rate" Duran. But it all goes back to the question..... what am I going to believe? What the writer's say...or my own lying eyes? lol.

He's someone when you watch him fight, if your not amazed, then you are not capable of being amazed. The best fight I can imagine from all these eyes have seen, would probably be Whitaker vs Duran at lightweight. One in which I think Duran wins, but many of us would claim that "Whitaker was robbed". lol

Hey, I could see the great Pernell Whitaker beating Duran in one of 3 fights, but I cannot see him win the series. Duran was an incredible fighter. Maybe the best of the last 50 years or so. I have not seen a boxer done what he has done in terms of accomplishments. Forget the "No Mas". Forget his las two decades in the sport of boxing. He was TRULY AMAZING FOLKS

I think that a boxer that could be a greater lightweight than Duran, to me, could be the great Joe Gans, not Benny Leonard.

I don't see nobody, ABSOLUTELY NOBODY, putting the great Sugar Ray Robinson in position #5 at ww or the great Muhammad Alli #5 at heavyweight...Do we? Why should the great Roberto Duran be #5? Just because Goodnite Irene says so?

For him, Robinson nor Ali could never, ever be lower. Well, to me, Duran could never be lower than #2, especially, at lightweight.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Armstrong, Gans, Williams, Leonard, Whitaker...give me a break these guys couldnt beat Duran two out of three

Im not even saying they would, but as usual, these guys are completely short-sold next to Duran.

And Whitaker, Armstrong and Leonard should, actually, start as favourites against Duran.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Duran is MASSIVELY over-rated.

Thats what Im pissing and moaning about. The guys fans have more excuses than any other mob, and that INCLUDES, shockingly enough, Tyson's crew.

[raylawpc]

I think he left out the word ALMOST. The fact he avenged his only defeat at Lightweight, twice, and in brutal fashion, says he is as good as invincible at 135. I have him at #1 in the division for that reason, should any other Light from any era beat him, he would definitely win the rematch, and without mercy. He was almost a savage at Lightweight.

One hopes you are being facetious here, as you claim you were on the greatest middleweights discussion. It is hard to see how a rematch victory over DeJesus means Duran could avenge a loss to any other ATG lightweight, "without mercy." Unless you were being facetious, you will have to connect the dots for us . . .

I dont have, or need to connect anything, if you or irene think any Lightweight from any era would come out on top in a best of 3 with Duran tell us who and how.

What I and apparently Elmer are saying is he would come out on top against anyone from any era at 135. So again who is gonna come out on top against his incredible work rate, strength at 135, punch power, defensive ability, and sheer desire to win at any cost, including fouling if it got the job done? Not just one or 2 of those assets, but all 5 because that is what would be required to win.

Okay, I’ll bite: Here are some guys I think could potentially win two-out-of-three with Roberto, all things being equal:

George Lavigne
Joe Gans
Benny Leonard
Barney Ross
Henry Armstrong
Ike Williams
Carlos Ortiz

Any of these could have defeated Duran two out of three and – even if they didn’t – Duran wouldn’t have defeated any of these guys “without mercy.”

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Armstrong, Gans, Williams, Leonard, Whitaker...give me a break these guys couldnt beat Duran two out of three

Im not even saying they would, but as usual, these guys are completely short-sold next to Duran.

And Whitaker, Armstrong and Leonard should, actually, start as favourites against Duran.

I can't see favoring Armstrong over Duran from a stylistic standpoint.Not to say he couldn't beat him 3 out of 3, I just think Duran would be the favorite.

[raylawpc]

I dont have, or need to connect anything, if you or irene think any Lightweight from any era would come out on top in a best of 3 with Duran tell us who and how.

What I and apparently Elmer are saying is he would come out on top against anyone from any era at 135. So again who is gonna come out on top against his incredible work rate, strength at 135, punch power, defensive ability, and sheer desire to win at any cost, including fouling if it got the job done? Not just one or 2 of those assets, but all 5 because that is what would be required to win.

Okay, I’ll bite: Here are some guys I think could potentially win two-out-of-three with Roberto, all things being equal:

George Lavigne
Joe Gans
Benny Leonard
Barney Ross
Henry Armstrong
Ike Williams
Carlos Ortiz

Any of these could have defeated Duran two out of three and – even if they didn’t – Duran wouldn’t have defeated any of these guys “without mercy.”

Well there you go, it wasn't that hard was it? I noticed you haven't said how you think they would beat Duran regarding tactics, but you've given your opinion at least.

The fact that i totally disagree with it, and have listed Durans assets at 135, which are the reasons for my assumption of his win in any trilogy against any other Lightweight, is neither here nor there. The most important thing is you have stated your opinion, nonsensical as it may be.

Any reason I chose to give would be better than yours . . . that Duran could win two out of three with any of the past ATGs because he beat DeJesus two out of three. . .

[raylawpc]

I've heard ducks fart before. It wasn't impressive then, and your version of it isn't either. I suspect the reason you dont list the assets these names you have dragged up might have to beat the marauding savage that was Duran at 135, is because you can't think of any.

What were you doing with your ear next to a duck's butt? Your rationale is Duran would beat all other ATG lightweights because Duran beat DeJesus in two rematches and he'd do it "without mercy." This tells me that any rationale I gave would not convince you, so I will follow the Biblical injunction against casting pearls before swine. (Or ducks, as the case may be . . .)

[elmersalsa]

Duran is MASSIVELY over-rated.

Thats what Im pissing and moaning about. The guys fans have more excuses than any other mob, and that INCLUDES, shockingly enough, Tyson's crew.

Don't forget Muhammad Ali in his losses also. He had plenty of excuses just like anybody else, including the great Roberto Duran. D D D

[elmersalsa]

Ali could not lose to anybody either, right?

[raylawpc]

I've heard ducks fart before. It wasn't impressive then, and your version of it isn't either. I suspect the reason you dont list the assets these names you have dragged up might have to beat the marauding savage that was Duran at 135, is because you can't think of any.

What were you doing with your ear next to a duck's butt? Your rationale is Duran would beat all other ATG lightweights because Duran beat DeJesus in two rematches and he'd do it "without mercy." This tells me that any rationale I gave would not convince you, so I will follow the Biblical injunction against casting pearls before swine. (Or ducks, as the case may be . . .)

Your presumptousness over rides your ignorance, which is quite a feat in itself. I have no interest in lies or spin, that is the domain of politicians and other halfwits. I did not claim that Duran would beat any other Lightweight BECAUSE he beat De Jesus 2 out of 3 ( so your lying bullshit will only impress you )

I said he beat De Jesus in the return, and then again in a rubber match " without mercy ". Watch the trilogy again, and see for yourself ( though i doubt you are capable ) how he almost tortures the guy before knocking him out.

I'm not remotely interested in your opinion of Duran, I'm simply saying if you dont think he beats any other Lightweight 2 out of 3, say who would beat him, and how. Even for someone like you, it cant be that difficult, can it? After all you are the one trying to rubbish the guy, and his record AT THAT WEIGHT.

You wrote:

"The fact [Duran] avenged his only defeat at Lightweight, twice, and in brutal fashion, says he is as good as invincible at 135. I have him at #1 in the division for that reason, should any other Light from any era beat him, he would definitely win the rematch, and without mercy."

It ain't spin. Your words speak for themselves.

Oh, and P.S., I ain't trying to rubbish Roberto Duran. I said the only guys who had the potential to beat Duran two-out-of-three were Lavigne, Gans, Leonard, Ross, Armstrong, Williams and Ortiz. I'm not convinced that they would - only that they could. Clearly, I rate Duran as an ATG at lightweight. The fact I rate others up there with him is not trashing the guy.