Elite of the elite:

[Crease]

We, each of us could argue about boxing until doomsday - but who are Sugar Ray Robinson's peers?
It's acknowledged that he is the finest we've ever had - but throwing him in the group of the greatest of all time, who would stand alongside him?

You can choose as many as you would like - provided that you believe it wouldn't lower the standard.

And lastly, Robinson needs comapny it can't be kept by himself, so he must be joined by others...

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Langford, Greb, Charles & Armstrong.

[Crease]

Langford, Greb, Charles & Armstrong.

Is that all in your book? Where do you leave the likes of Benny Leonard, Sugar Ray Leonard or Willie Pep?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

That's it for me. Those other guys are in my next tier from 6 -15 or 20.

[MEISINGER]

Langford, Greb, Charles & Armstrong.

Is that all in your book? Where do you leave the likes of Benny Leonard, Sugar Ray Leonard or Willie Pep?

i would also add benny leonard and willie pep

no sugar ray leonard does not make my top tier

[Ezzard]

That's it for me. Those other guys are in my next tier from 6 -15 or 20.

I can't argue with this. Benny and Archie might be closest to breaking in.

[raylawpc]

Joining Robinson in mine are Sam Langford, Harry Greb, Henry Armstrong, Benny Leonard and Willie Pep.

[elmersalsa]

For a couple of years, about 6 years or so, I have considered the great Henry Armstrong as the greatest fighter that ever was. Every time I look at his accomplishments is something to think and behold.

The elite of the elite for me would be:
Henry Armstrong
Sugar Ray Robinson
Sam Langford
Roberto Duran
Willie Pep
Harry Greb...that's it!

[Boilermaker]

We, each of us could argue about boxing until doomsday - but who are Sugar Ray Robinson's peers?
It's acknowledged that he is the finest we've ever had - but throwing him in the group of the greatest of all time, who would stand alongside him?

You can choose as many as you would like - provided that you believe it wouldn't lower the standard.

And lastly, Robinson needs comapny it can't be kept by himself, so he must be joined by others...

It depends on the criteria you use.

Robinson's best case as the finest ever relies mostly on subjective qualities. ie Judgment of his performances on film. There is no doubt that when you look at Sugar Ray it is hard to imagine a fighter who is better than him. Technically perfect in pretty much every way. He has speed, power, technique etc. And he has a damn fine record to back it up. However, what is often forgotten is that so do many other fighters.

Even solely as a welterweight, while Ray probably has the best case to be the clear number one fighter but he was not unbeatable particularly if he were matched against other all time greats, even though it is trendy to say it is impossible for other greats to beat him. Tommy Ryan's dominance at welterweight for example was not too different to what Ray did in terms of longevity. It is arguable also that Barbados Joe Walcott did things as a welterweight that Ray did not do.

Even in his own time, Marty Servo came within an inch of beating Ray in their second fight, with both apparently at their best. The refereee scored the fight in favour of Servo, as it seems did many and maybe even most of the people who actually saw the fight! It also seems by looking solely at the scorecards that the deciding judge was either on another planet, or in the pocket of Ray. Now the point is that if Mary Servo can come this close to beating Robinson, then surely other all time greats such as Ray Leonard, Benny Leonard, Henry Armstrong, Joe Walcott, Tommy Ryan, mickey Walker and many, many others at least deserve consideration and are at their best capable of beating Robinson. In fact, as with Ali and Frazier, why shouldnt Marty Servo at least be mentioned in the same group as Robinson. He did, after all, take him on twice and push him to the limit twice. In fact many people believe that the he fought the very best Ray could offer and triumphed over it!

Then you look at what other fighters did in their own division. When Joe Louis was at his very best, nobody beat him at his own weight, and he overcame bigger size discrepancies than Robinson ever did, plus he dominated as unbeatable for a longer period of time, and was probably considered by most if not all as the better pound for pound fighter than Ray Robinson, for most if not all of their respective careers. Monzon at his best as a middleweight didnt come as close to losing as prime Robinson did. Pre plane crash Willie Pep was said to be every bit as impressive as prime ray and it really is a matter of personal preference as to which was the better. Muhammed ali despite being heavier than Ray was apparently measured on film as being faster than him, given his also great record, surely he can be mentioned in the same group. Obviously, Ray couldnt dominate above his natural weight like a Greb, Fitzsimmons or Henry armstrong.

Of course none of this is to say that Ray isnt the greatest fighter of all time, but it is a matter of personal opinion as to where you rank him in comparison to others. This is going to cause a furore, but it is not unreasonable to rank him outside the top 10.

[scallum]

Srr, Greb, Langford, Armstrong, Duran and Ali. If Benitez would have trained for his fights he would have beat SRL and Hearns to be on this list imo

[Goodnight, Irene]

Saad nailed this one.

[BoxBuzz]

Maxie Rosenbloom. Unless someone can show me films that prove me wrong. Guy was a ghost, more slippery than Whitaker, and slappier than Calzaghe. I hear he was giving Greb a lesson in boxing until the mid rounds. That's when Greb had his minions slip a cute gal into the front seats of the arena, and start making eyes and throwin kisses Maxie's way....and it took him off his game.

And Wise guy Greb chalks up another "win".....

Rosenbloom and Baer....both had the same weakness. The girls sittin' in the front rows.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

For a couple of years, about 6 years or so, I have considered the great Henry Armstrong as the greatest fighter that ever was. Every time I look at his accomplishments is something to think and behold.

The elite of the elite for me would be:
Henry Armstrong
Sugar Ray Robinson
Sam Langford
Roberto Duran
Willie Pep
Harry Greb...that's it!

I love Duran, but no way in hell he rates over Charles. To put him at a different level is laughable.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Saad nailed this one.

So we have the same top 5, what is your order?

[Goodnight, Irene]

We do.

I have it...

1. Armstrong
2. Greb
3. Langford
4. Robinson
5. Charles

[SaadOffTheDeck]

We do.

I have it...

1. Armstrong
2. Greb
3. Langford
4. Robinson
5. Charles

I applaud the ability to go past Robinson. I've come ever so close to doing that with Langford. Beating Joe Gans & a Heavy likeHarry Wills is one of the more astounding feats I can think of. Imagine someone beating Marquez & Klitschko?

[Goodnight, Irene]

Its amazing to imagine. Wont see it ever again, though.

Its interesting to me as well that Robinson probably has the weakest CV of those five. Hard to believe what these guys did.

[raylawpc]

We do.

I have it...

1. Armstrong
2. Greb
3. Langford
4. Robinson
5. Charles

I applaud the ability to go past Robinson. I've come ever so close to doing that with Langford. Beating Joe Gans & a Heavy likeHarry Wills is one of the more astounding feats I can think of. Imagine someone beating Marquez & Klitschko?

In Gan's defense: His fight with Langford took place on Dec. 8, 1903. in Boston. The day before Gans fought a no decision bout with Dave Holly in Philadelphia - a good fighter, too. Gans had to travel by train to Boston for the Langford fight 24-hours later. And he gave the heavier Langford a good fight, before fading down the stretch, according to accounts in the Boston newspapers.

[klompton]

Maxie Rosenbloom. Unless someone can show me films that prove me wrong. Guy was a ghost, more slippery than Whitaker, and slappier than Calzaghe. I hear he was giving Greb a lesson in boxing until the mid rounds. That's when Greb had his minions slip a cute gal into the front seats of the arena, and start making eyes and throwin kisses Maxie's way....and it took him off his game.

And Wise guy Greb chalks up another "win".....

Laughable, Greb dominated that fight. Rosenbloom wasnt even in it. Greb beat him so bad that the papers said he went out of his way to let Rosenbloom go the distance. Rosenbloom said Greb was the greatest fighter he ever faced.

[scallum]

The difference between Srr and the other elites is that he was defeating former and future champs within 12 months of first turning pro. most of the other greats listed in this topic either had draws or lost when they 1st tasted stiff competition.Take a closer look at what Srr did after only 12 months as a pro I doubt any fighter cn match that. He even defeated the guy who would go on to give The Great Willie Pep his 1 st defeat

[SaadOffTheDeck]

It's cute you think that's important.

[Crease]

There's a few names being thrown about here, "the usual suspects" I suppose you could say... But why Duran?

[beaujack]

Maxie Rosenbloom. Unless someone can show me films that prove me wrong. Guy was a ghost, more slippery than Whitaker, and slappier than Calzaghe. I hear he was giving Greb a lesson in boxing until the mid rounds. That's when Greb had his minions slip a cute gal into the front seats of the arena, and start making eyes and throwin kisses Maxie's way....and it took him off his game.

And Wise guy Greb chalks up another "win".....

Laughable, Greb dominated that fight. Rosenbloom wasnt even in it. Greb beat him so bad that the papers said he went out of his way to let Rosenbloom go the distance. Rosenbloom said Greb was the greatest fighter he ever faced.

True, what you say...I have it from the "horse's mouth ,as they say...As a young boy i would listen to the Sam Taub radio program. One afternoon Taub 'great boxing announcer ', interviewed Maxie Rosenbloom who acknowledged the beating he received from Harry Greb, and when Taub asked him"who was the best fighter you ever fought" ? The answer "Harry Greb."..And Rosenbloom had 299 bouts against the best of the best...

[beaujack]

We, each of us could argue about boxing until doomsday - but who are Sugar Ray Robinson's peers?
It's acknowledged that he is the finest we've ever had - but throwing him in the group of the greatest of all time, who would stand alongside him?

You can choose as many as you would like - provided that you believe it wouldn't lower the standard.

And lastly, Robinson needs comapny it can't be kept by himself, so he must be joined by others...

I saw Ray Robinson ringside in his welterweight PRIME,several times..Had to be the topo WW alltime.
But today shortsighted fans forget the name of Benny Leonard the great LW champion of the golden age of boxing...Leonard in HIS time [1917-23
was considered the best fighter of his time by his peers, Dempsey, tunney, Greb, Walker, etc. He held the LW crown for seven years, fighting the best roster of lightweight contenders ever , such as Lew Tendler, Johnny Kilbane, Freddie Welsh,Charley White, Richie Mitchell, Rocky Kansas, Joe Welling, Johnny Dundee, Ever Hammer, Leo Johnson, etc. He was considered unbeatable during his 7 year reign, and had to ease up on many opponents so he could get a rematch, or he would run out of viable opponents..
Leonard was considered as good a LW as the Welterweight Ray Robinson was as a welterweight...
But today when talking about greatest fighters alltime [Elite of the Elite] Benny Leonard today is sadly forgotten...But not by me....

[scallum]

It's cute you think that's important.

If it was not important name another great fighter who beat such great comp so early in his career. The handlers of SRR must have been the most confident guys ever. He beat 3 hall of famers in his first year as a professional. Who does that?