Boxing Clever - Enzo should quit but no sympathy for Shane

[damianhucker1]

There is a differance between professional sympathy and personal sympathy. A man with a burning desire to succeed encourages more empathy than a guy who has a burning desire to get the fight done so he can pick up his beer money and get blammed.

That doesn't mean he doesn't deserve the victory....

For me, injustice--even in a professional context-- is closely related to any kind of sympathy. I'm sure that McPhilbin preferred to win rather than lose (not just from a monetary perspective), and I'm sure that he would've benefited more, at least in the short term, had he won. Because he deserved to win and reap the benefits of victory, I feel for him a both as a boxer and a person.

I also find it tricky to disentangle the concepts of professional sympathy and personal sympathy. McPhilbin experienced injustice in a professional context, but this inevitably affects him in the personal realm. For example, his daughter is apparently his biggest fan and he doesn't want to let her down; his professional success has an impact at a much more personal level.

I'm also hesitant to conclude that he was indifferent about winning based on the comments you refer to. I've read several interviews with him leading up to the fight and he emphasizes that he is training very hard. Damian, who seems to be an insider, also confirms this. I doubt this would be the case if McPhilbin had no desire to win.

Wouldnt say im an insider as such , theres certainly people who know him better than i do , his brother Clinton Posts on here , as does Shane himself occasionally , but i do know him and he used one of my fighters as one of his main sparring partners , a lad called Karl Beard , so i saw how much effort was being put into training , using 6ft 6 Karl was a very good way to prepare for Enzo as he has a similar style to him , and as Law said , shane isnt a talker , hes not particularly Clever , so it would be difficult for someone like him to choose the right words , the alternative to being calm after being shafted would be to be outraged , shane had the Intelligence enough to ensure he didnt do that and put an additional cloud over the fight .

Shane had worked hard on a game plan , something i had alluded to on this forum before the fight , Enzo throwing those Long body shots is sooooo easy to to counter , and with his suspect chin i always felt shane had a chance to knock him out, did i predict it would happen ? simple answer is no , i knew shane had a shot but if im honest i thought shane needed to get him out of there early or face being boxed out of the fight , id say i was right there with that , but shane definately worked hard to ensure he was ready with a good game plan that could and should have worked , he did what he needed to do to win , im sure shane would have known within himself that he needed the knockout and was never gonna outbox Enzo ,

so the question i ask Pocket rocket is this ,

If shanes plan was to Ko enzo early with counter hooks ,likely knowing he couldnt outbox him , would the best bet not be to focus his training on those first few rounds , so saying he was knackered for the rest of the fight , the rounds he was being boxed a bit , they were the rounds he probably knew he was likely to struggle with anyway , some times do you not think its best to focus on your strengths rather than spend too much time worrying about something your unlikely to be able to do much about anyway ?
(Focus on strengths to improve chances of winning or focus and weaknesses to not get beat as easilly ???? )

I admit shane maybe looked like he wasnt fit enough in the second half of the fight , and id say myself thats the only criticism i would point in his direction as if he was fitter he could maybe have had another burst and gone for the knockout later in the fight , but to be fair when the tide has turned against you in a fight its sometimes extremely difficult to turn it back round ,especially against someone as experienced , someone who has boxed for World Titles .

[thepocketrocket]

We are not too far away from each othere here...

I saw a man who robbed blind, but who still had a huge lead on points.

Shane didn't even have to knock Enzo out..he had to just win a couple of extra rounds and he would have edged the decision. The fact he didn't was because he was too tired in the second half of the fight.

Now I believe that 20% is lifestyle based and there are plenty of McPhilbin level fighters out there saying they would at least have done been fit enough to finish the job, even if they were bummed in the first ( have spoken to a number but won't be name checking)

I believe If McPhilbin lived the life (not just in a 5 week training camp) he would still be champion, with or without the incompetence of Mr Fallon and that's why I felt frustration.

If anyone thinks I am disrespecting Shane then words fail me

[thepocketrocket]

I will acknowlege that Shane may not be the brightest (a comment I would never make in an article as I have no evidence)

His words since he became champion have been booze related and he did seem non plussed at the end (He did not need to call Enzo a pudendum at the end or call Mr Warren corrupt) There just didn't seem any fire.

From the outside looking in it seemed as though he never really saw himself as a champion, didn't change his lifestyle and that made it easier to take the injustice. It was like he was happy to share a ring with Enzo.

This could be a totally wrong perception. But when you speak you create a public persona and his has always been 'Shane from down the pub who got a bloody British title!'

For all I know Shane is banging his head against the wall this very minute. but his comments about a twelve day bender seemed to trivialise the whole event, when there were many (including me) who felt sick for the guy.

[The Insider]

Shane is not a great 'talker' and his post-fight interview can be misinterpreted. Talking is definitely not his forte. He definitely wanted to win the fight and he is a genuinely nice guy who deserves another chance.

Shane trained really hard for this fight (the hardest he has ever trained) and really wanted to win. I was in his changing room for a couple of hours, walked him to the ring (no I wasn't in the Mr Blobby costume) and monitored his corner in between rounds. He gave it his best and will hopefully get a rematch or will get the chance to fight for the vacant title.

X2 on this.

He was convinced he was going to win the fight. He trained very hard too according to Carl. I spoke to Shane before and after the fight and he was very focussed before, no mucking about as is the norm and after he seemed quite reflective. It's no secret, he's no clean liver (just look at the post fight interview that Jane did after the last fight) and he likes the odd ciggy and quite a few bevvys when not in training.

[desperados]

The scorecards were fair....That wasn't my point...and if you had read the rest you may have realised that I thought Shane was shafted.

Congratulations on reading the first paragraph and then feeling you know enough about the context of the piece to reply negatively

fair enough mate, i felt you had a point, i was too judgemental too soon, so i had another bash at it, and stopped reading at this point:

We all have disasters at work. I always feel sorry for those pilots on 'Air Crash Investigation' who are usually decent but have a bad day at the office and crash their plane into a mountain killing everybody on board.

i may have been wrong about how i initially interpreted your comment on "the verdict was fair", my intial reaction was of course it wasn't fair, but if you were talking solely on how the fight was scored by the judges, then you're right, it wasn't the cards that were a scandal.

But the above part is down-right distasteful.

how can you compare a Time Keeper ringing a bell early in a boxing bout, to a Pilot killing a airliner full of people?

[Podmore_Birmingham]

Trust me, if Shane hadn't have trained hard then he wouldn't have been 14st 3lbs; he'd have been around 17st. That's no word of a lie.

Let's not forget that he's shed a few stone in the past 12 months to get to cruiserweight.

Furthermore, he would have little choice but to do the work in the gym, as Carl Greaves wouldn't have let him slack off in such an important title fight.

For me, it was a case of Shane throwing all he had at Enzo for the first three rounds and, after he survived, having nothing left.

It's not the first time that's happened to a fighter and it certainly won't be the last.

But the fact remains that it should't be an issue anyway - as Enzo would not have survived another 20 seconds of that round, let alone the 47 that was left on the clock.

[thepocketrocket]

The scorecards were fair....That wasn't my point...and if you had read the rest you may have realised that I thought Shane was shafted.

Congratulations on reading the first paragraph and then feeling you know enough about the context of the piece to reply negatively

fair enough mate, i felt you had a point, i was too judgemental too soon, so i had another bash at it, and stopped reading at this point:

We all have disasters at work. I always feel sorry for those pilots on 'Air Crash Investigation' who are usually decent but have a bad day at the office and crash their plane into a mountain killing everybody on board.

i may have been wrong about how i initially interpreted your comment on "the verdict was fair", my intial reaction was of course it wasn't fair, but if you were talking solely on how the fight was scored by the judges, then you're right, it wasn't the cards that were a scandal.

But the above part is down-right distasteful.

how can you compare a Time Keeper ringing a bell early in a boxing bout, to a Pilot killing a airliner full of people?

And if you had continued to read you would have seen that I said it wasn't anywhere near as serious...Actually I won't bother continuing speaking to you.

Had some great debate here with people who genuinly disagree with my point...you are a burke who is stoppng reading at a point where you can use a throwaway line and twist it out of context.

Adios!

[thepocketrocket]

Everybody is in agreement that Shane's chances were scuppered by the time keeping blunder. Quite right. I still believe the fight should be declared an NC.

However, McPhilbin was breathing out of his arse from halfway through the fourth. Medical explanations aside, that is proof positive that his training was inadequate in the build-up to this fight and, arguably more so, that he hasn't 'lived the life' in the manner that those fighters who can breeze 12 rounds do. Had Shane been fit, and given that Enzo is shot to bits and there for the taking, he could've maintained the pressure and either stopped Enzo later on, or got the points decision.

So, whilst I sympathise with Shane for the fornicate-up in the first round, I agree with Martin Dobbing's gist that McPhilbin didn't do himself justice because he had failed to prepare properly.

Good, argument provoking opinion piece.

Thanks Macho..and Tel as well!

[oliverc]

Enzo has given us many great nights and he doesn't deserve to go out losing to someone like McPhilbin. If Maccarinelli continues, a rematch should happen, just because it is fair. But I will be supporting Enzo. The man lives and breathes the sport. It is always a man like him who should succeed.

Also there is no evidence that my work is biased as I have no axe to grind with either party

No axe to grind as regards McPhilbin maybe, but clearly an article written from the view point of an unobjective Enzo fanboy, full of postulation masquerading as fact.

Furthermore this article only serves to display the enormous gulf between print and online journalism.

[fatcity69]

I dont think how a shane lives his life outside the ring has any bearing on whether we should sympathize or not about him being ROBBED against Enzo!. The plain fact is that the lad was robbed, end of story, even if he had entered the ring after a skinful that would not change the facts. Even when Shane tired Enzo did nothing hardly but hold and his punches had nothing on them, having watched the match a few times I think shane did more than enough to deserve the points verdict, he was the only one truly trying to fight in there while enzo was literally holdin on for dear life most of the time. Hopefully shane will take his career a little more seriously from now on and realise his potiential, but I dont think it is for us keyboard warriors to wag our fingers and say if and when we should sympathize about fighters being mistreated becasue of the way they live their lives when theyre not fightin.

[thepocketrocket]

Enzo has given us many great nights and he doesn't deserve to go out losing to someone like McPhilbin. If Maccarinelli continues, a rematch should happen, just because it is fair. But I will be supporting Enzo. The man lives and breathes the sport. It is always a man like him who should succeed.

Also there is no evidence that my work is biased as I have no axe to grind with either party

No axe to grind as regards McPhilbin maybe, but clearly an article written from the view point of an unobjective Enzo fanboy, full of postulation masquerading as fact.

Furthermore this article only serves to display the enormous gulf between print and online journalism.

Never been an Enzo fan boy...but he has given many an exciting night over the last decade....win lose or draw and for that I, along with many others are thankful for what a servant to the game he has been...

Plenty of objectivity..I said he was always fragile and always there to be hit..I hardly called him Marvin Hagler...

Not the strongest argument on the thread!

Edit...I also said Enzo was finished in the first and Shane was robbed blind...hardly the actions of a fan boy!. No need to resort to personal attacks to discredit the argument. Not in the spirit of the thread

[oliverc]

Enzo has given us many great nights and he doesn't deserve to go out losing to someone like McPhilbin. If Maccarinelli continues, a rematch should happen, just because it is fair. But I will be supporting Enzo. The man lives and breathes the sport. It is always a man like him who should succeed.

Also there is no evidence that my work is biased as I have no axe to grind with either party

No axe to grind as regards McPhilbin maybe, but clearly an article written from the view point of an unobjective Enzo fanboy, full of postulation masquerading as fact.

Furthermore this article only serves to display the enormous gulf between print and online journalism.

Never been an Enzo fan boy...but he has given many an exciting night over the last decade....win lose or draw and for that I, along with many others are thankful for what a servant to the game he has been...

Plenty of objectivity..I said he was always fragile and always there to be hit..I hardly called him Marvin Hagler...

Not the strongest argument on the thread!

Enzo has had many great nights in his career. His points victory over the favoured Wayne Braithwaite in 2007 was a wonderful performance. Maccarinelli proved himself a world level operator. He also holds a stoppage victory former world champion Marcelo Dominguez, another brilliant showing.

Since you have made such efforts to highlight McPhilbin's many flaws, I thought an objective journalist would've qualified Enzo's 'wonderful performance' against Braithwaite, and his 'brilliant showing' against Dominguez with a maybe a few adjectives which might have intimated the shortcomings of both vanquished foes? I mean if word count was an issue, you could always have removed that pilot analogy to include one or two hints that Dominguez may well have been draining himself to make cruiserweight, a weight he hadn't made in almost five years? Or that Dominguez was nine years removed from his reign as a title holder?

Of course it is not possible to qualify every statement in the article; but you seem to almost apologise for Enzo's shortcomings - 'one thing to remember however, is that four of those stoppages (defeats) came against world level operators', (Frenkel never proved himself to be a 'world level operator' btw).

Furthermore if Enzo is to be believed, doesn't this belated attempt to make light-heavy, coupled with his assertion that he was walking around at 185 lbs a week before his bout with 'world level operator' Frenkel suggest that he hasn't always done his upmost to come to the ring in optimum condition? That if he had been truly disciplined he would've been fighting at light-heavy a lot longer ago?

http://www.BS.com/enzo-maccari ... ght--46125

In the above article Enzo clearly suggests his lifestyle hasn't always been as monastic as it should've been. Is he like McPhilbin guilty of 'not do(ing) everything he could (do) to win?

Edit: Apologies for the aggressive tone of my posts, I should've entered this debate in a more level-headed fashion - but like may others i'm sick of the boxing. I am tired by the BBB of C's refusal to deal with serial incompetence, I am tired with poor officiating (which almost always exclusively benefiting the home fighter), I am tired of the promoter who can not be named, I am tired of a particular personality who purports to be a plain speaking messiah but is little more than a dimwitted cockney loudmouth, I am tired of apologists and company men ... the latter being something I wrongly presumed yourself to be. Apologies.

[thepocketrocket]

No need to apologise, i have no personal beef with you and share a lot of your gripes.

What I didn't want to do was start qualifying every Enzo success with a 'but'. it is all about levels and he did well, he made a great career when anyone who saw him lose to Swaby or get caught by Scott would have thought he was going nowhere. They were brilliant performances for Enzo

I remember reading that article first time round and yes, for a time Enzo may have been dodgy but this appears to be a blip, Enzo C would never let him act like that...but McPhilbin's PUBLIC PERSONA seems to show it is more systemic and in my opinion his lifestyle cost him the fight (after the first of course)

But i know why there is such anger...it looked a shaft job, i was livid...I am just veherment in my belief it wasn't on purpose and the Mr Fallon is sat at home distraught

[damianhucker1]

I will agree that like Machoman has touched upon , Journalism and also any view put onto any subject on any forum always have a personal opinion which can be swayed biasedly in one direction or another .

while i still maintain criticising shane , saying he hadnt prepared properly is utter garbage , i will accept that your article is solely your opinion , However im not sure such an article should be front page headline on possibly the most popular boxing website , its not ok for us to criticise how a certain promotor operates via our opinions on this forum yet an article falsely criticising a fighters preperation for the biggest fight in his life , which he happened to controversially lose , is deemed appropriate .

Personally id prefer the articles fronted by this site to be FACT based , not ones opinion .

But otherwise i hold no desire to further attack the peice .

[dondada]

Personally id prefer the articles fronted by this site to be FACT based , not ones opinion .

But otherwise i hold no desire to further attack the peice .

The site offers a mix of articles.

Any opinion piece should be based on facts...as one honestly perceives them.

I think it's a bit extreme to suggest the whole genre should be kicked into touch.

[thepocketrocket]

I will agree that like Machoman has touched upon , Journalism and also any view put onto any subject on any forum always have a personal opinion which can be swayed biasedly in one direction or another .

while i still maintain criticising shane , saying he hadnt prepared properly is utter garbage , i will accept that your article is solely your opinion , However im not sure such an article should be front page headline on possibly the most popular boxing website , its not ok for us to criticise how a certain promotor operates via our opinions on this forum yet an article falsely criticising a fighters preperation for the biggest fight in his life , which he happened to controversially lose , is deemed appropriate .

Personally id prefer the articles fronted by this site to be FACT based , not ones opinion .

But otherwise i hold no desire to further attack the peice .

OK, everyone here will admit that Shane is a drinker and that he has not lived the life. I refuse to start patting him on the back for stopping drinking duringa five week training camp. So there are no 'false accusations'. To be fair it isn't 'solely my opinion' and is shared by a number of people.

Keep attacking if you want..the opinions are strong enough to take it. They are even strong enough to take a patronising fob off.

Keep well

[fatcity69]

If you want to concentrate on Shanes conditioning rather than the unjust way he was treated during his fight with Enzo, lets look at enzos conditioning shall we?. The fact is that Enzo has never exactly been a body beautiful and stamina has never been his strongest forte even at his 'peak'. Despite his height enzo has always been a rather soft/flabby cruiser who as he admits himself now should probably have been fighting at 175 all along. So much for dedication then.

[damianhucker1]

Personally id prefer the articles fronted by this site to be FACT based , not ones opinion .

But otherwise i hold no desire to further attack the peice .

The site offers a mix of articles.

Any opinion piece should be based on facts...as one honestly perceives them.

I think it's a bit extreme to suggest the whole genre should be kicked into touch.

I look forward to the next article criticising Mr W arren then

edit :corrected s spelling mistake

[dondada]

If you want to concentrate on Shanes conditioning rather than the unjust way he was treated during his fight with Enzo, lets look at enzos conditioning shall we?. The fact is that Enzo has never exactly been a body beautiful and stamina has never been his strongest forte even at his 'peak'. Despite his height enzo has always been a rather soft/flabby cruiser who as he admits himself now should probably have been fighting at 175 all along. So much for dedication then.

Enzo was dedicated but in the wrong weight division.

I think pocketrocket's main point (or one of them) is that if McPhilbin lived more like Bernard Hopkins than Bernie Winters, he'd have had more of a chance later in the fight.

[thepocketrocket]

If you want to concentrate on Shanes conditioning rather than the unjust way he was treated during his fight with Enzo, lets look at enzos conditioning shall we?. The fact is that Enzo has never exactly been a body beautiful and stamina has never been his strongest forte even at his 'peak'. Despite his height enzo has always been a rather soft/flabby cruiser who as he admits himself now should probably have been fighting at 175 all along. So much for dedication then.

Enzo was dedicated but in the wrong weight division.

I think pocketrocket's main point (or one of them) is that if McPhilbin lived more like Bernard Hopkins than Bernie Winters, he'd have had more of a chance later in the fight.

Love that!

[fatcity69]

If you want to concentrate on Shanes conditioning rather than the unjust way he was treated during his fight with Enzo, lets look at enzos conditioning shall we?. The fact is that Enzo has never exactly been a body beautiful and stamina has never been his strongest forte even at his 'peak'. Despite his height enzo has always been a rather soft/flabby cruiser who as he admits himself now should probably have been fighting at 175 all along. So much for dedication then.

Enzo was dedicated but in the wrong weight division.

I think pocketrocket's main point (or one of them) is that if McPhilbin lived more like Bernard Hopkins than Bernie Winters, he'd have had more of a chance later in the fight.

Well by the same measure then if Enzo had lived his life like Hopkins he would probably have spent his career up to now at 175. If Enzo has been spending the majority of his career in the wrong weight division then he has either fialed to be truly dedicated or made a foolish mistake regarding the direction of his career. And taking that into consideration what was he doing up at cruiser again???.... if he wanted a Britsh title why not go after the 175 belt???. Im not having a go at Enzo particularly but just pointing out that if you can nitpick about shanes conditioning and lifestyle the same can be done with enzos conditioning and lifestyle. Indeed of the two at this point of their careers I think Enzos conditioning and weight yo-yoing gives far more cause for concern than Shanes. Going up and down in weight like enzo has been can be very dangerous to a fighters health, especially in the latter stage of his career.

[dondada]

And taking that into consideration what was he doing up at cruiser again???.... if he wanted a Britsh title why not go after the 175 belt???

Politics, politics.

[damianhucker1]

I will agree that like Machoman has touched upon , Journalism and also any view put onto any subject on any forum always have a personal opinion which can be swayed biasedly in one direction or another .

while i still maintain criticising shane , saying he hadnt prepared properly is utter garbage , i will accept that your article is solely your opinion , However im not sure such an article should be front page headline on possibly the most popular boxing website , its not ok for us to criticise how a certain promotor operates via our opinions on this forum yet an article falsely criticising a fighters preperation for the biggest fight in his life , which he happened to controversially lose , is deemed appropriate .

Personally id prefer the articles fronted by this site to be FACT based , not ones opinion .

But otherwise i hold no desire to further attack the peice .

OK, everyone here will admit that Shane is a drinker and that he has not lived the life. I refuse to start patting him on the back for stopping drinking duringa five week training camp. So there are no 'false accusations'. To be fair it isn't 'solely my opinion' and is shared by a number of people.

Keep attacking if you want..the opinions are strong enough to take it. They are even strong enough to take a patronising fob off.

Keep well

Isnt that bold text a bit strange ,you said he didnt drink for his training camp , but wont pat him on the back for that therfor no false accusations , pretty sure the entire thread is based on the accusation that he didnt prepare properly for the fight and you therfor had no sympathy .

Your just contradicting yourself

as i already stated ,

I look forward to your next on article on criticising F rank W arren .

If its ok for boxrec to allow bull to be published about shane then they will allow you to the same on allegedly surely ?????

Nah thought not !!

[dondada]

I will agree that like Machoman has touched upon , Journalism and also any view put onto any subject on any forum always have a personal opinion which can be swayed biasedly in one direction or another .

while i still maintain criticising shane , saying he hadnt prepared properly is utter garbage , i will accept that your article is solely your opinion , However im not sure such an article should be front page headline on possibly the most popular boxing website , its not ok for us to criticise how a certain promotor operates via our opinions on this forum yet an article falsely criticising a fighters preperation for the biggest fight in his life , which he happened to controversially lose , is deemed appropriate .

Personally id prefer the articles fronted by this site to be FACT based , not ones opinion .

But otherwise i hold no desire to further attack the peice .

OK, everyone here will admit that Shane is a drinker and that he has not lived the life. I refuse to start patting him on the back for stopping drinking duringa five week training camp. So there are no 'false accusations'. To be fair it isn't 'solely my opinion' and is shared by a number of people.

Keep attacking if you want..the opinions are strong enough to take it. They are even strong enough to take a patronising fob off.

Keep well

Isnt that bold text a bit strange ,you said he didnt drink for his training camp , but wont pat him on the back for that therfor no false accusations , pretty sure the entire thread is based on the accusation that he didnt prepare properly for the fight and you therfor had no sympathy .

Your just contradicting yourself

as i already stated ,

I look forward to your next on article on criticising F rank W arren .

If its ok for boxrec to allow bull to be published about shane then they will allow you to the same on allegedly surely ?????

Nah thought not !!

You're losing the thread. It's not self-contradictory to concede that the chap didn't have a drink for five weeks but also to say that he could have been better conditioned.

Yeah, we're really known for being friends of Al - puff pieces all the way on Voldemort!

[thepocketrocket]

I will agree that like Machoman has touched upon , Journalism and also any view put onto any subject on any forum always have a personal opinion which can be swayed biasedly in one direction or another .

while i still maintain criticising shane , saying he hadnt prepared properly is utter garbage , i will accept that your article is solely your opinion , However im not sure such an article should be front page headline on possibly the most popular boxing website , its not ok for us to criticise how a certain promotor operates via our opinions on this forum yet an article falsely criticising a fighters preperation for the biggest fight in his life , which he happened to controversially lose , is deemed appropriate .

Personally id prefer the articles fronted by this site to be FACT based , not ones opinion .

But otherwise i hold no desire to further attack the peice .

OK, everyone here will admit that Shane is a drinker and that he has not lived the life. I refuse to start patting him on the back for stopping drinking duringa five week training camp. So there are no 'false accusations'. To be fair it isn't 'solely my opinion' and is shared by a number of people.

Keep attacking if you want..the opinions are strong enough to take it. They are even strong enough to take a patronising fob off.

Keep well

Isnt that bold text a bit strange ,you said he didnt drink for his training camp , but wont pat him on the back for that therfor no false accusations , pretty sure the entire thread is based on the accusation that he didnt prepare properly for the fight and you therfor had no sympathy .

Your just contradicting yourself

as i already stated ,

I look forward to your next on article on criticising F rank W arren .

If its ok for boxrec to allow bull to be published about shane then they will allow you to the same on allegedly surely ?????

Nah thought not !!

If you think that giving up the pop for five weeks during a training camp is the cornerstone of a well conditioned athlete then you are beyond help/

Conditioning is a long drawn out process and if you don't love the life then you will not be at 100%. i never said he staggerd to the ring so no contradictions

But if you think that five weeks off the ale is enough to get Shane to he peak of his powers then that is your call!!