Fight Films Lost To History

[klompton]

Im a big fight film fanatic. I am absolutely fascinated by the history of boxing films and Im always staggered by the various fights I come across which were filmed but apparently dont exist anymore. I thought Id share a list Ive made of some of those fights. Feel free to add to it or comment on it:

Hughie Mehegen Vs Matt Wells
Georges Carpentier Vs George Gunther
Georges Carpentier Vs Jim Sullivan
Georges Carpentier Vs Gunboat Smith
Georges Carpentier Vs Joe Jeanette
Georges Carpentier Vs Billy Wells
Sam Langford Vs Sam McVea Sydney 1912
Sam Langford Vs Sam McVea Paris 1911
Sam Langford Vs Iron Hague
Eddie McGoorty Vs Dave Smith
Joe Bonds Vs Dick O'Brien
Freddie Welsh Vs Willie Ritchie
Billy Wells Vs Bandsman Blake
Archie Bradley Vs Harry Stone
Jim Corbett Vs Jim Jeffries
Kid McCoy Vs Peter Maher
Danny Frush Vs Johnny Kilbane
Paul Berlenbach Vs Mike McTigue
Jimmy Britt Vs Johnny Summers
Ray Bronson Vs Sid Sullivan
Jim Corbett Vs Kid McCoy (not sure if this is the staged fight they did before a back drop or the real one)
Jack Dempsey Vs Fred Fulton
Terry McGovern Vs George Dixon
Bob Fitzsimmons Vs Jack O'Brien
Bob Fitzsimmons Vs Gus Ruhlin
Fred Fulton Vs Charlie Weinert
Mike Gibbons Vs Young Ahearn
Jim Jeffries Vs Bob Fitzsimmons
Battling Nelson Vs Terry McGovern
Jack Johnson Vs Bob Roper
Mickey Walker Vs Dave Shade
Paul Berlenbach Vs Young Stribling
Luis Firpo Vs Sailor Maxted
Mike Gibbons Vs Soldier Bartfield
Frank Moran Vs Billy Wells
Ted Kid Lewis Vs Marcel Thomas


Obviously there are tons and tons more but thats what I could come up with off the top of my head.

[BoxBuzz]

So this list comprises those fights KNOWN to be filmed, but which no current copies can be found?

Are there are NO Maxie Rosenbloom fights KNOWN to have been filmed? Amazing for a guy who was such a ham in front of the camera.

No Greb fights fit this category either?

[Tomasino]

The few Greb fights must be the most searched for films in the world. I would imagine they would be very valuable. Just watched Sam McVea v Battling Jim Johnson. A lot of rough stuff going on, blatant headbutting and arm twisting.

[klompton]

A couple more:

Gunner Moir Vs Tiger Smith (I may have this, I cant remember)
Pedlar Palmer Vs Dick Burge

[klompton]

So this list comprises those fights KNOWN to be filmed, but which no current copies can be found?

Are there are NO Maxie Rosenbloom fights KNOWN to have been filmed? Amazing for a guy who was such a ham in front of the camera.

No Greb fights fit this category either?

The fights on this list were filmed and are currently lost as far as I know. I didnt add any Greb fights because Im sure people get tired of me talking about him. Needless to say this list is in no way comprehensive. Ive found dozens more like the above I just can lay my hands on what Ive done with the sources or lists they are on.

I dont know if any Rosenbloom fights were filmed or not.

[raylawpc]

The official film for Jeffries v. Tom Sharkey II. The stills from the film are fabulous. By all accounts, it was a great film. The one that exists is the bootleg.

Are you sure either of the Jeffries v. Corbett fights were filmed? My understand is that neither were filmed.

I assume the Jeffries-Fitz film you refer to is the 1899 fight. That was filmed, but the film was underexposed. i don't think the second fight was filmed.

[klompton]

Its possible that the Jeffries-Fitz and Jeffries-Corbett fights are the reproductions but the advertisements I have found dont specify that they are.

Supposedly both Jeffries-Fitz fights were filmed.

Here are a few more:

Young Griffo VS Battling Charles Barnett
Freddie Welsh Vs Jack Daniels
Packey McFarland Vs Matt Wells

[klompton]

And yet a few more:

Billy Papke Vs Georges Bernard
Frank Klaus Vs Marcel Moreau
Willie Lewis Vs Jack Costello (Im pretty sure I have this but the fight I think is it I cant positively identify, its definately Willie Lewis and Jeanette works his corner and fights an exhibition before hand but Im not sure who Lewis' opponent is)
Saint Didier Vs Joe Gans (not that Joe Gans)
Fernand Quendreux Vs Astier

[King Carlos]

What's the deal with the Dick Tiger/Frank DePaula fight?

[klompton]

What's the deal with the Dick Tiger/Frank DePaula fight?

It was destroyed in a storage facility fire in the 1970s.

Along with Emile Griffith-Gonzalez 2 which was the first nationally televised color broadcast.

[raylawpc]

Its possible that the Jeffries-Fitz and Jeffries-Corbett fights are the reproductions but the advertisements I have found dont specify that they are.

Supposedly both Jeffries-Fitz fights were filmed.

Here are a few more:

Young Griffo VS Battling Charles Barnett
Freddie Welsh Vs Jack Daniels
Packey McFarland Vs Matt Wells

Portions of "Jeffries-Fitz" and "Jeffries-Corbett" still exist. (I've seen them.) But they were both reproductions. The actors look nothing like the true principals.

[klompton]

Its possible that the Jeffries-Fitz and Jeffries-Corbett fights are the reproductions but the advertisements I have found dont specify that they are.

Supposedly both Jeffries-Fitz fights were filmed.

Here are a few more:

Young Griffo VS Battling Charles Barnett
Freddie Welsh Vs Jack Daniels
Packey McFarland Vs Matt Wells

Portions of "Jeffries-Fitz" and "Jeffries-Corbett" still exist. (I've seen them.) But they were both reproductions. The actors look nothing like the true principals.

Yeah I have those. Same with the second and third Gans-Nelson fights.

[elmersalsa]

Does the Carlos Ortiz vs Ismael Laguna II fight exists on film? I will always wanted to get a copy of that.

Also I would like to know about the Carlos Ortiz vs Carlos "Teo" Cruz fight. Does it exist on film?

[klompton]

Does the Carlos Ortiz vs Ismael Laguna II fight exists on film? I will always wanted to get a copy of that.

Also I would like to know about the Carlos Ortiz vs Carlos "Teo" Cruz fight. Does it exist on film?

At least a short clip does. Ive never seen more but wouldnt be surprised if its out there.

[dempseyfire]

Big Fights has a lot of HL clips of which the fights were originally nationally televised bouts, but the full bouts are gone (some examples: Graziano-Janiro, Powell-Norkus, Matthews-Murphy)

Others:
Liston-Folley
Quarry-Mathis
Giardello-Mims
Dempsey-Miske (I know there is like 20 seconds of action out there along with the pre-fight intros, but the quality is crap)
Louis-Simon I
Zale-Graziano I

One would think in all those British Pathe HLs that they probably filmed the whole fight . I'd wonder of those are in a fault somewhere or if they were just discarded. Would love to see the whole Baer-Farr fight for example, especially considering the relative excellent quality English films usually have for that era . . .

Considering how many elite fighters Rosenbloom fought I'd be shocked if a number of his fights were not ever filmed.

Here's a listing of some of the PBR WNF broadcasts (not even close to being exhaustive) A fair number of these are available but many aren't, including Machen-Valdez and Baker-Holman. Also I really wish the quality of the existing Ols0n-Turpin bout was better . . great fight but it hurts my eyes watching it. http://radiogoldindex.com/cgi-local/p2. ... bbon+Bouts

Klomp: I saw in another thread you said film exists of Levinsky and Gunboat Smith . .which fights? First time I ever heard that.

[klompton]

Big Fights has a lot of HL clips of which the fights were originally nationally televised bouts, but the full bouts are gone (some examples: Graziano-Janiro, Powell-Norkus, Matthews-Murphy)

Others:
Liston-Folley
Quarry-Mathis
Giardello-Mims
Dempsey-Miske (I know there is like 20 seconds of action out there along with the pre-fight intros, but the quality is crap)
Louis-Simon I
Zale-Graziano I

One would think in all those British Pathe HLs that they probably filmed the whole fight . I'd wonder of those are in a fault somewhere or if they were just discarded. Would love to see the whole Baer-Farr fight for example, especially considering the relative excellent quality English films usually have for that era . . .

Considering how many elite fighters Rosenbloom fought I'd be shocked if a number of his fights were not ever filmed.

Here's a listing of some of the PBR WNF broadcasts (not even close to being exhaustive) A fair number of these are available but many aren't, including Machen-Valdez and Baker-Holman. Also I really wish the quality of the existing Ols0n-Turpin bout was better . . great fight but it hurts my eyes watching it. http://radiogoldindex.com/cgi-local/p2. ... bbon+Bouts

Klomp: I saw in another thread you said film exists of Levinsky and Gunboat Smith . .which fights? First time I ever heard that.

Quarry-Mathis doesnt exist. It was televised and likely filmed but also likely destroyed in the fire I mentioned above. It was rumored to exist for years based largely on the word of one moronic liar. I tracked that story down from literally one end of the country to the other, from the beginning of the film being made to its destruction, and from the both Mathis and Quarry families. Im now satisfied not only that it doesnt exist but that nobody outside of MSG ever owned a copy of it, and even if they did they would have had no way of watching it or reproducing it. The guy who started that massive wild goose chase described the film to me in detail down to the announcer etc and there is no way he or the Quarry family (which is where he said it came from) could have ever had it in the form he described it. Sad but true. I wasted a lot of time on that one.

I have the Dempsey-Miske footage. Im the one who discovered the only clip of fight footage currently known to exist but its not even 20 seconds. Its in good shape though.

Liston-Foley doesnt exist, nor does Graziano-Zale 1

I have Matthews-Murphy complete

Louis-Simon 1 exists

Giardello-Mims exists

I should also say that there is a distinct difference between something being broadcast (particularly in the early days of TV) and being filmed. Just because something was broadcast on live tv does NOT mean it was EVER filmed or preserved. Most of the early TV fights were in fact NOT filmed. They were simply sent out over the air waves and out into the ether, gone, much like radio broadcasts.

Gunboat Smith sparring with Bob Armstrong for his bout with Carpentier.

Battling Levinsky Vs. Jim Savage. 1 round from the undercard of Willard-Moran.

Those fights you listed on that index are Radio broadcasts.

[Boilermaker]

Big Fights has a lot of HL clips of which the fights were originally nationally televised bouts, but the full bouts are gone (some examples: Graziano-Janiro, Powell-Norkus, Matthews-Murphy)

Others:
Liston-Folley
Quarry-Mathis
Giardello-Mims
Dempsey-Miske (I know there is like 20 seconds of action out there along with the pre-fight intros, but the quality is crap)
Louis-Simon I
Zale-Graziano I

One would think in all those British Pathe HLs that they probably filmed the whole fight . I'd wonder of those are in a fault somewhere or if they were just discarded. Would love to see the whole Baer-Farr fight for example, especially considering the relative excellent quality English films usually have for that era . . .

Considering how many elite fighters Rosenbloom fought I'd be shocked if a number of his fights were not ever filmed.

Here's a listing of some of the PBR WNF broadcasts (not even close to being exhaustive) A fair number of these are available but many aren't, including Machen-Valdez and Baker-Holman. Also I really wish the quality of the existing Ols0n-Turpin bout was better . . great fight but it hurts my eyes watching it. http://radiogoldindex.com/cgi-local/p2. ... bbon+Bouts

Klomp: I saw in another thread you said film exists of Levinsky and Gunboat Smith . .which fights? First time I ever heard that.

Quarry-Mathis doesnt exist. It was televised and likely filmed but also likely destroyed in the fire I mentioned above. It was rumored to exist for years based largely on the word of one moronic liar. I tracked that story down from literally one end of the country to the other, from the beginning of the film being made to its destruction, and from the both Mathis and Quarry families. Im now satisfied not only that it doesnt exist but that nobody outside of MSG ever owned a copy of it, and even if they did they would have had no way of watching it or reproducing it. The guy who started that massive wild goose chase described the film to me in detail down to the announcer etc and there is no way he or the Quarry family (which is where he said it came from) could have ever had it in the form he described it. Sad but true. I wasted a lot of time on that one.

I have the Dempsey-Miske footage. Im the one who discovered the only clip of fight footage currently known to exist but its not even 20 seconds. Its in good shape though.

Liston-Foley doesnt exist, nor does Graziano-Zale 1

I have Matthews-Murphy complete

Louis-Simon 1 exists

Giardello-Mims exists

I should also say that there is a distinct difference between something being broadcast (particularly in the early days of TV) and being filmed. Just because something was broadcast on live tv does NOT mean it was EVER filmed or preserved. Most of the early TV fights were in fact NOT filmed. They were simply sent out over the air waves and out into the ether, gone, much like radio broadcasts.

Gunboat Smith sparring with Bob Armstrong for his bout with Carpentier.

Battling Levinsky Vs. Jim Savage. 1 round from the undercard of Willard-Moran.

Those fights you listed on that index are Radio broadcasts.

Does the Dempsey Miske fight include a ko?

[Ezzard]

More recently...

Hagler-Finnegan was on TV (I and II) but does film exist of either fight?

[klompton]

Big Fights has a lot of HL clips of which the fights were originally nationally televised bouts, but the full bouts are gone (some examples: Graziano-Janiro, Powell-Norkus, Matthews-Murphy)

Others:
Liston-Folley
Quarry-Mathis
Giardello-Mims
Dempsey-Miske (I know there is like 20 seconds of action out there along with the pre-fight intros, but the quality is crap)
Louis-Simon I
Zale-Graziano I

One would think in all those British Pathe HLs that they probably filmed the whole fight . I'd wonder of those are in a fault somewhere or if they were just discarded. Would love to see the whole Baer-Farr fight for example, especially considering the relative excellent quality English films usually have for that era . . .

Considering how many elite fighters Rosenbloom fought I'd be shocked if a number of his fights were not ever filmed.

Here's a listing of some of the PBR WNF broadcasts (not even close to being exhaustive) A fair number of these are available but many aren't, including Machen-Valdez and Baker-Holman. Also I really wish the quality of the existing Ols0n-Turpin bout was better . . great fight but it hurts my eyes watching it. http://radiogoldindex.com/cgi-local/p2. ... bbon+Bouts

Klomp: I saw in another thread you said film exists of Levinsky and Gunboat Smith . .which fights? First time I ever heard that.

Quarry-Mathis doesnt exist. It was televised and likely filmed but also likely destroyed in the fire I mentioned above. It was rumored to exist for years based largely on the word of one moronic liar. I tracked that story down from literally one end of the country to the other, from the beginning of the film being made to its destruction, and from the both Mathis and Quarry families. Im now satisfied not only that it doesnt exist but that nobody outside of MSG ever owned a copy of it, and even if they did they would have had no way of watching it or reproducing it. The guy who started that massive wild goose chase described the film to me in detail down to the announcer etc and there is no way he or the Quarry family (which is where he said it came from) could have ever had it in the form he described it. Sad but true. I wasted a lot of time on that one.

I have the Dempsey-Miske footage. Im the one who discovered the only clip of fight footage currently known to exist but its not even 20 seconds. Its in good shape though.

Liston-Foley doesnt exist, nor does Graziano-Zale 1

I have Matthews-Murphy complete

Louis-Simon 1 exists

Giardello-Mims exists

I should also say that there is a distinct difference between something being broadcast (particularly in the early days of TV) and being filmed. Just because something was broadcast on live tv does NOT mean it was EVER filmed or preserved. Most of the early TV fights were in fact NOT filmed. They were simply sent out over the air waves and out into the ether, gone, much like radio broadcasts.

Gunboat Smith sparring with Bob Armstrong for his bout with Carpentier.

Battling Levinsky Vs. Jim Savage. 1 round from the undercard of Willard-Moran.

Those fights you listed on that index are Radio broadcasts.

Does the Dempsey Miske fight include a ko?

No its just the opening seconds of the fight.

[jimbakos]

I'm attempting to obtain videos of a retired boxer, Gary Ballard 22-4-1 (Global ID 4951) and coming up empty. A DVD existed but has since disappeared. :(

Preserving his fights to view at any time would mean so much to Gary and his gym students. Gary is now a personal trainer in Orange County, CA. Is there any chance of obtaining videos of Gary's US fights? He fought 1995-1998 in the US , immigrating from his native South Africa. If unable to help, can you suggest another avenue to pursue? It would break Gary's heart that videos don't exist.

Earlier in his successful career, Gary fought across the pond in England/Great Britain on 2 different occasions: Jun 1991 and Mar 1994. Balance of bouts were fought in South Africa, in Durban, Gary's hometown, and various South Africa cities, beginning Feb 1990. BTW, Gary's profile and bout history can be viewed by linking to http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_ ... &cat=boxer.

[dempseyfire]

Big Fights has a lot of HL clips of which the fights were originally nationally televised bouts, but the full bouts are gone (some examples: Graziano-Janiro, Powell-Norkus, Matthews-Murphy)

Others:
Liston-Folley
Quarry-Mathis
Giardello-Mims
Dempsey-Miske (I know there is like 20 seconds of action out there along with the pre-fight intros, but the quality is crap)
Louis-Simon I
Zale-Graziano I

One would think in all those British Pathe HLs that they probably filmed the whole fight . I'd wonder of those are in a fault somewhere or if they were just discarded. Would love to see the whole Baer-Farr fight for example, especially considering the relative excellent quality English films usually have for that era . . .

Considering how many elite fighters Rosenbloom fought I'd be shocked if a number of his fights were not ever filmed.

Here's a listing of some of the PBR WNF broadcasts (not even close to being exhaustive) A fair number of these are available but many aren't, including Machen-Valdez and Baker-Holman. Also I really wish the quality of the existing Ols0n-Turpin bout was better . . great fight but it hurts my eyes watching it. http://radiogoldindex.com/cgi-local/p2. ... bbon+Bouts

Klomp: I saw in another thread you said film exists of Levinsky and Gunboat Smith . .which fights? First time I ever heard that.

Quarry-Mathis doesnt exist. It was televised and likely filmed but also likely destroyed in the fire I mentioned above. It was rumored to exist for years based largely on the word of one moronic liar. I tracked that story down from literally one end of the country to the other, from the beginning of the film being made to its destruction, and from the both Mathis and Quarry families. Im now satisfied not only that it doesnt exist but that nobody outside of MSG ever owned a copy of it, and even if they did they would have had no way of watching it or reproducing it. The guy who started that massive wild goose chase described the film to me in detail down to the announcer etc and there is no way he or the Quarry family (which is where he said it came from) could have ever had it in the form he described it. Sad but true. I wasted a lot of time on that one.

I have the Dempsey-Miske footage. Im the one who discovered the only clip of fight footage currently known to exist but its not even 20 seconds. Its in good shape though.

Liston-Foley doesnt exist, nor does Graziano-Zale 1

I have Matthews-Murphy complete

Louis-Simon 1 exists

Giardello-Mims exists

I should also say that there is a distinct difference between something being broadcast (particularly in the early days of TV) and being filmed. Just because something was broadcast on live tv does NOT mean it was EVER filmed or preserved. Most of the early TV fights were in fact NOT filmed. They were simply sent out over the air waves and out into the ether, gone, much like radio broadcasts.

Gunboat Smith sparring with Bob Armstrong for his bout with Carpentier.

Battling Levinsky Vs. Jim Savage. 1 round from the undercard of Willard-Moran.

Those fights you listed on that index are Radio broadcasts.

I know the lists was about radio broadcasts but those cards were broadcast on TV as well. So a question: Since many were simply not recorded and broadcast over the airwaves, who was recording the ones we do have? Rich people with the first home recording equipment at their homes? Local TV stations where the fights occured?

As for Simon-Louis I . . I've seen it listed on a few DVD collector sights but everytime I've asked about it "they can't find it . ." also never seen any HLs of the fight in any of the numerous Louis documentaries/specials made since the 1980s. So I know it was filmed, but I'm perplexed as to why the film hasn't been available like the majority of Louis's other title defenses . . .

[Crease]

Was Marciano vs LaStarza I recorded?

[klompton]

Big Fights has a lot of HL clips of which the fights were originally nationally televised bouts, but the full bouts are gone (some examples: Graziano-Janiro, Powell-Norkus, Matthews-Murphy)

Others:
Liston-Folley
Quarry-Mathis
Giardello-Mims
Dempsey-Miske (I know there is like 20 seconds of action out there along with the pre-fight intros, but the quality is crap)
Louis-Simon I
Zale-Graziano I

One would think in all those British Pathe HLs that they probably filmed the whole fight . I'd wonder of those are in a fault somewhere or if they were just discarded. Would love to see the whole Baer-Farr fight for example, especially considering the relative excellent quality English films usually have for that era . . .

Considering how many elite fighters Rosenbloom fought I'd be shocked if a number of his fights were not ever filmed.

Here's a listing of some of the PBR WNF broadcasts (not even close to being exhaustive) A fair number of these are available but many aren't, including Machen-Valdez and Baker-Holman. Also I really wish the quality of the existing Ols0n-Turpin bout was better . . great fight but it hurts my eyes watching it. http://radiogoldindex.com/cgi-local/p2. ... bbon+Bouts

Klomp: I saw in another thread you said film exists of Levinsky and Gunboat Smith . .which fights? First time I ever heard that.

Quarry-Mathis doesnt exist. It was televised and likely filmed but also likely destroyed in the fire I mentioned above. It was rumored to exist for years based largely on the word of one moronic liar. I tracked that story down from literally one end of the country to the other, from the beginning of the film being made to its destruction, and from the both Mathis and Quarry families. Im now satisfied not only that it doesnt exist but that nobody outside of MSG ever owned a copy of it, and even if they did they would have had no way of watching it or reproducing it. The guy who started that massive wild goose chase described the film to me in detail down to the announcer etc and there is no way he or the Quarry family (which is where he said it came from) could have ever had it in the form he described it. Sad but true. I wasted a lot of time on that one.

I have the Dempsey-Miske footage. Im the one who discovered the only clip of fight footage currently known to exist but its not even 20 seconds. Its in good shape though.

Liston-Foley doesnt exist, nor does Graziano-Zale 1

I have Matthews-Murphy complete

Louis-Simon 1 exists

Giardello-Mims exists

I should also say that there is a distinct difference between something being broadcast (particularly in the early days of TV) and being filmed. Just because something was broadcast on live tv does NOT mean it was EVER filmed or preserved. Most of the early TV fights were in fact NOT filmed. They were simply sent out over the air waves and out into the ether, gone, much like radio broadcasts.

Gunboat Smith sparring with Bob Armstrong for his bout with Carpentier.

Battling Levinsky Vs. Jim Savage. 1 round from the undercard of Willard-Moran.

Those fights you listed on that index are Radio broadcasts.

I know the lists was about radio broadcasts but those cards were broadcast on TV as well. So a question: Since many were simply not recorded and broadcast over the airwaves, who was recording the ones we do have? Rich people with the first home recording equipment at their homes? Local TV stations where the fights occured?

As for Simon-Louis I . . I've seen it listed on a few DVD collector sights but everytime I've asked about it "they can't find it . ." also never seen any HLs of the fight in any of the numerous Louis documentaries/specials made since the 1980s. So I know it was filmed, but I'm perplexed as to why the film hasn't been available like the majority of Louis's other title defenses . . .

Not all of those fights on the Goldin index were shown on TV.

Some of those films that have been preserved which were shown on TV were either filmed as well to be shown in theatres, or were filmed via a device called kinescope which was essentially a film camera set up to film a television screen.

[Chuck1052]

As far as I know, all footage of Dave Shade's filmed fights is lost. It is my understanding that Shade brought back some footage of at least one bout he had in Australia, but it was confiscated by U.S. Customs. There is some extremely poor footage of Shade sparring with Jack Dempsey in latter's preparation for a bout.

- Chuck Johnston

[klompton]

I have footage of Shade sparring Jack Renault.