Hagler vs Leonard : How did you score the fight ?

[Quixall]

With the recent ringside special on Ray Leonard, i decided to re-watch the fight, because i have only watched highlights before and wanted to gain my own judgement on what the score should have been. This is how i scored the fight. After three rounds i had Leonard two rounds up. At seven rounds i had the fight even. At the end of the 9th round i had Hagler one up. At the end of the 11th i had it even again. The last round i couldn't split so gave that as a draw, so i scored the fight as a draw. If i was pushed to give it to one fighter, i would have given it to Hagler.

How did you score the fight ?

If you want to watch the fight, here is the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr5c22wWJS8

[forcefraser]

Hagler by 2 rounds. One judge had it by miles for Leonard. I could never understand that.

[15829]

I had Leonard up by 2

[jBacca]

Watched this for the first time the other week, and even though this thread isn't necessarily about the scorecard, I thought I'd post mine anyway.

Round 1 - Not much action. Hagler coming forward but finding SRL hard to hit. SRL lands a few more digs than Hagler and takes the round. SRL.

10-9 SRL


Round 2 - Better round for the fans. Hagler has the better of the first minute, landing more than the previous round. SRL comes back into the round throwing a few more punches. SRL finishes the round strongly, landing some telling punches and making Hagler miss. Hagler was in the round until he started looking ugly missing the target, all credit to SRL. SRL.

20-18 SRL


Round 3 - Hagler starts the better again. Lands a lovely left hook and then soon follows up with a quick flurry of jabs. Once again SRL gets back into the round, landing 2/3 punch combos and disappearing before Hagler can land any leather. SRL has taken control of the round by the end of it, and Hagler's only other significant punch (after the left at the start of the round) comes after the bell. SRL.

30-27 SRL


Round 4 - Hard one to call. Hagler yet again starts off with intent, having moderate success. Hagler works the body well. SRL gives away the first half of the round by not throwing anything of note. SRL comes back into it by making Hagler look messy and wild, and landing potshots inbetween. SRL lands a 'trickshot', but it should have been given as a lowblow. SRL lands a nice combination going into the last thirty, but I feel Hagler just nicks the round by working a little more. HAGLER.

39-37 SRL


Round 5 - Fantastic round and really hard to score. Hagler comes out firing once again, but this time SRL has great success countering. The second minute is back and forth, SRL looking good dodging and countering, but then Hagler landing a couple of power shots. With nothing to split them going into the finale, Hagler has Leonard against the ropes, and whilst Leonard is in no significant danger, Hagler throws a lot of leather and works the body well. HAGLER.

48-47 SRL


Round 6 - Hagler starts the better and snaps Leonard's head back with uppercuts inside. Leonard comes back into it, firstly making Hagler miss wildly and then by landing telling combinations of the ropes. It's pretty even going into the last minute where SRL completely takes over. Speed is key as Hagler is second to the punch over and over. SRL.

58-56 SRL


Round 7 - Entertaining round. Hagler keeps coming forward, SRL makes him look messy, missing quite a bit, but Hagler does land a few. Leonard doesn't throw enough for the first two minutes. SRL comes back into the round with a lovely combination, followed by the Ali Shuffle. SRL looks like nicking the round but Hagler ties him up in the last twenty seconds and works the body well, landing a lovely uppercut also. HAGLER.

67-66 SRL


Round 8 - Hagler stalks Leonard, utilising his ramrod jab well. Over and over he throws the jab, having good success. He lands a couple of hard shots as well to take a one-sided first half of the round. SRL comes back into the round by landing a couple of shots on Hagler, but Hagler doesn't seem fazed and retaliates straight away, working the body quite well. Hagler's most convincing round for me. HAGLER.

76-76


Round 9 - Absolute fvcking peach of a round. Leonard starts strongly, completely differently to all the other rounds. Hagler comes in firing again but Leonard makes him miss and hits finds Hagler's chin at will. Hagler finally traps Leonard against the ropes, but doesn't land much as Leonard unloads with a quick 5/6 punch combination. Hagler pushes SRL back onto the ropes and starts working the body and head. Leonard looks likes he letting the round slip away but out of nowhere he fires off fantastic flurries. The rest of the round follows the same precedent, toe-to-toe ding dong. Fantastic round, won by Leonard's dominance for the first half. SRL.

86-85 SRL


Round 10 - This round seemed a lot slower compared to the ninth. Hagler keeps pressing forward but doesn't really land, Leonard doesn't really throw much back either. Have to give the first half to Hagler on work rate. Leonard finishes the round throwing a lot more and has moderate success. Hagler doesn't really find his target apart from a big, right hook after Leonard misses a speculative shot. Leonard finishes the round stronger landing a few shots, whereas Hagler is looking slow and messy. SRL.

96-94 SRL


Round 11 - Hagler is looking tired and sluggish now, and Leonard makes him pay. Leonard lands throughout the round, often showboating and why not! Hagler hardly lands, he can't even hit SRL when he's purposely giving him a target. Easy, easy round for Leonard. SRL

106-103 SRL


Round 12 - Leonard knows he's won the fight and dances around. Hagler lands more shots than Leonard, but Leonard's look the flashier. Hagler works for the round more, and his body work whilst trapping Leonard on the ropes, at the end of the round, proves decisive. HAGLER.

115-113 SRL

[mahatma]

i was a big Hagler fan thought he would stop SRL but i thought he lost 115-113 sounds about right.
The reason he lost was that SRL fought a great fight looked twice the speed of hagler insisted on 12 rounds, a large ring and knew how to steal the eye of the judges
what spoilt the fight was the absurd scoring of 1 judge who gave it to SRL by a landslide, which it wasnt and led to conspiracy theories galore

[Quixall]

Hagler by 2 rounds. One judge had it by miles for Leonard. I could never understand that.

Yeah, that was ridiculous, one judge had it 118-110 for Leonard ?? Whilst the other two had it 115-113 (Leonard) 115-113 (Hagler). There always seems to be one moron of a judge at the big fights. What fight was he watching to get 118-110 ??

[Terminator666]

Many different opinions on this now as there was back then. I remember at the time though that the average guy in the street thougt Hagler would destroy Leonard. This was a time when there was no Sky tv and even the casual fan had some knowledge of both boxers.

[smoggy7188]

Dont know if its been mentioned but this is on tomorrow night on radio5 live at 19.30

"25 years since Marvelous Marvin Hagler and Sugar Ray Leonard locked horns at Caesar's Palace, Las Vegas in their $26 million Super Fight, 5 live Boxing looks back at a truly great era in the ring. Mike Costello and Steve Bunce also remember some of the other great boxers of the time, including Tommy Hearns and Roberto Duran and discuss some of the most explosive, contentious and memorable fights in the history of the sport."

[dondada]

I had Leonard up by 2

This. 116-114 Leonard. Hated doing so, too.

[dalcumly]

Totally agree - really wanted Hagler to destroy him ,but even being biased I couldn't give him the fight. Strangely enough I still think Hagler is the best middleweight I've ever seen !!!

[Final round]

Leonard won it, no controversy at all.

[dr_devious]

7-5 to Hagler

[keithmoonhangover]

Leonard by 2 rounds. If you think Hagler won, you need a change of meds.

Watch the two fighters at the bell (4:10).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSVj9XHn_l8

Hagler motions to Leonard with his right hand. Leonard raises his hands. Only one winner.

[Quixall]

Leonard by 2 rounds. If you think Hagler won, you need a change of meds.

It was a very close fight Keith..................

One judge was way out with his 118-110 score for Leonard, now he did need a change of meds and the other two judges got the fight 115-113 for Hagler and 115-113 for Leonard, so not so clear cut as you sumise and it wasn't a shut out by any means. Leonard hit the cleaner shots, but Hagler was the more active and some of his body work went unoticed i feel.

[keithmoonhangover]

Leonard by 2 rounds. If you think Hagler won, you need a change of meds.

It was a very close fight Keith..................

One judge was way out with his 118-110 score for Leonard, now he did need a change of meds and the other two judges got the fight 115-113 for Hagler and 115-113 for Leonard, so not so clear cut as you sumise and it wasn't a shut out by any means. Leonard hit the cleaner shots, but Hagler was the more active and some of his body work went unoticed i feel.

I noticed his body work and he still lost the fight. Gil Clancy called the fight brilliantly BTW.

[Quixall]

Leonard by 2 rounds. If you think Hagler won, you need a change of meds.

It was a very close fight Keith..................

One judge was way out with his 118-110 score for Leonard, now he did need a change of meds and the other two judges got the fight 115-113 for Hagler and 115-113 for Leonard, so not so clear cut as you sumise and it wasn't a shut out by any means. Leonard hit the cleaner shots, but Hagler was the more active and some of his body work went unoticed i feel.

I noticed his body work and he still lost the fight. Gil Clancy called the fight brilliantly BTW.

It's one of those fights where the judging could have been affected by the reaction of the crowd. Whatever Hagler did, he was expected to do so, but when Leonard put it together the whole place lit up. Also, Leonards style made Hagler look clumsy through out the fightand i think the fact that Leonard was never in any trouble also contributed to how the judges scored the fight. I personally think that Marvin was silly not to take a re-match if that was on offer, because the pay days would have been unreal for the time and it would have given Hagler the chance to avenge the defeat or given Leonard the chance to prove beyone doubt his genius.

[forcefraser]

It was a very close fight Keith..................

One judge was way out with his 118-110 score for Leonard, now he did need a change of meds and the other two judges got the fight 115-113 for Hagler and 115-113 for Leonard, so not so clear cut as you sumise and it wasn't a shut out by any means. Leonard hit the cleaner shots, but Hagler was the more active and some of his body work went unoticed i feel.

I noticed his body work and he still lost the fight. Gil Clancy called the fight brilliantly BTW.

It's one of those fights where the judging could have been affected by the reaction of the crowd. Whatever Hagler did, he was expected to do so, but when Leonard put it together the whole place lit up. Also, Leonards style made Hagler look clumsy through out the fightand i think the fact that Leonard was never in any trouble also contributed to how the judges scored the fight. I personally think that Marvin was silly not to take a re-match if that was on offer, because the pay days would have been unreal for the time and it would have given Hagler the chance to avenge the defeat or given Leonard the chance to prove beyone doubt his genius.

Hagler was a guy who felt shat on by the boxing establishment his whole life. The fact that he lost his title to Leonard in a fight that he thought he won, was just further proof to him that the game was against him.

I respect him massively for what he did. He was so disgusted with the result that he turned down millions for the rematch and never laced on a par of gloves again. He flet he was jobbed in the fight. He was the champion and felt Leonard had not "taken" the title from him. It was a close fight, but I will always maintain that if that fight had been in a small hall with 200 people watching two unknowns, then Hagler gets it.

The occassion and the fact that it was Ray Leonard against the odds sways peoples opinion. Ref the 118-110 scorecard. Hagleris my favourite fighter, so perhaps I`m biased but I have watched the fight a dozen times at least and still cannot see how Leonard can take the title in that fight.

[keithmoonhangover]

I noticed his body work and he still lost the fight. Gil Clancy called the fight brilliantly BTW.

It's one of those fights where the judging could have been affected by the reaction of the crowd. Whatever Hagler did, he was expected to do so, but when Leonard put it together the whole place lit up. Also, Leonards style made Hagler look clumsy through out the fightand i think the fact that Leonard was never in any trouble also contributed to how the judges scored the fight. I personally think that Marvin was silly not to take a re-match if that was on offer, because the pay days would have been unreal for the time and it would have given Hagler the chance to avenge the defeat or given Leonard the chance to prove beyone doubt his genius.

Hagler was a guy who felt shat on by the boxing establishment his whole life. The fact that he lost his title to Leonard in a fight that he thought he won, was just further proof to him that the game was against him.

I respect him massively for what he did. He was so disgusted with the result that he turned down millions for the rematch and never laced on a par of gloves again. He flet he was jobbed in the fight. He was the champion and felt Leonard had not "taken" the title from him. It was a close fight, but I will always maintain that if that fight had been in a small hall with 200 people watching two unknowns, then Hagler gets it.

The occassion and the fact that it was Ray Leonard against the odds sways peoples opinion. Ref the 118-110 scorecard. Hagleris my favourite fighter, so perhaps I`m biased but I have watched the fight a dozen times at least and still cannot see how Leonard can take the title in that fight.

Because he won more rounds. Leonard knew in the corner between rounds before the last few rounds that he was winning and so did Dundee. Look at Hagler's corner in between rounds.... does he look like he thinks he's winning? Are the Petronelli's telling him he's won? No.

[Twinkle Toes]

Had Hagler by a couple, it was a good fight.

[forcefraser]

It's one of those fights where the judging could have been affected by the reaction of the crowd. Whatever Hagler did, he was expected to do so, but when Leonard put it together the whole place lit up. Also, Leonards style made Hagler look clumsy through out the fightand i think the fact that Leonard was never in any trouble also contributed to how the judges scored the fight. I personally think that Marvin was silly not to take a re-match if that was on offer, because the pay days would have been unreal for the time and it would have given Hagler the chance to avenge the defeat or given Leonard the chance to prove beyone doubt his genius.

Hagler was a guy who felt shat on by the boxing establishment his whole life. The fact that he lost his title to Leonard in a fight that he thought he won, was just further proof to him that the game was against him.

I respect him massively for what he did. He was so disgusted with the result that he turned down millions for the rematch and never laced on a par of gloves again. He flet he was jobbed in the fight. He was the champion and felt Leonard had not "taken" the title from him. It was a close fight, but I will always maintain that if that fight had been in a small hall with 200 people watching two unknowns, then Hagler gets it.

The occassion and the fact that it was Ray Leonard against the odds sways peoples opinion. Ref the 118-110 scorecard. Hagleris my favourite fighter, so perhaps I`m biased but I have watched the fight a dozen times at least and still cannot see how Leonard can take the title in that fight.

Because he won more rounds. Leonard knew in the corner between rounds before the last few rounds that he was winning and so did Dundee. Look at Hagler's corner in between rounds.... does he look like he thinks he's winning? Are the Petronelli's telling him he's won? No.

People will never agree. They have their own interpretation of the fight and what constitutes winning rounds. I looked for the agression of Hagler against what I saw as Leonard running. Others will see what Leonard did as positive.

The point is that for me, Hagler won the fight by two rounds. The fact that due to the scoring of three judges, history will show that he lost the fight, does not mean to me that he "actually" lost the fight. We have seen that scoring is subjective, which is proved beyond doubt by the 118-110 score for Leonard. That scorecard is so bad that whoever scored it that way does not know boxing in my opinion.

How many times have judges got it wrong? Thousands of time in my opinion, but in their opinion they have it right. It is this subjectivity that renders many results in boxing worthless.

Take the Marquez v Pacman third fight. I think marquez won that fight clearly, whilst the judges thought different. Unless they have a "Fight to the finish" format, we will always disagree over decisions. It is inherently subjective, no matter what people say.

You think Leonard won the fight, I don`t. That`s the way boxing goes. I thought Chisora handily beat Hellenius, but the judges thought not. I don`t think it makes them right and me wrong.

[Ketchel]

When I was a kid I got caught up in the support for Sugar Ray's comeback and on whether could he do the impossible. When watching the fight at that time I just watched what Ray was doing and not Hagler. Amazed by the skill Ray still possessed I gave the fight to Leonard easily. As the years have gone by and I understood more about what I was watching I studied the fight again and saw a completely different fight. Yeah Ray fought a fight nobody at the time thought possible of him and this took something away from Hagler's performance. Hagler was supposed to steamroller him but with rewatching I observed Hagler landing the more hurtful single punches while Ray would flurry catching the eye. More flash than anything. A few times towards the end of the bout Ray pulled similar faces to those he would later pull when Terry Norris was putting a beatdown on him. Hagler was hurting him. The fight was close, Ray fought a great fight. Hagler did not fight to his best. I have now scored this fight a few times and always give it to Hagler by 2 rounds.

[nobby_nobbins]

When I was a kid I got caught up in the support for Sugar Ray's comeback and on whether could he do the impossible. When watching the fight at that time I just watched what Ray was doing and not Hagler. Amazed by the skill Ray still possessed I gave the fight to Leonard easily. As the years have gone by and I understood more about what I was watching I studied the fight again and saw a completely different fight. Yeah Ray fought a fight nobody at the time thought possible of him and this took something away from Hagler's performance. Hagler was supposed to steamroller him but with rewatching I observed Hagler landing the more hurtful single punches while Ray would flurry catching the eye. More flash than anything. A few times towards the end of the bout Ray pulled similar faces to those he would later pull when Terry Norris was putting a beatdown on him. Hagler was hurting him. The fight was close, Ray fought a great fight. Hagler did not fight to his best. I have now scored this fight a few times and always give it to Hagler by 2 rounds.

I agree 100 percent. Ray Leonard's performance was smoke and mirrors - a brilliant performance aimed at getting the crowd worked up and catching the eye of the judges. The more meaningful shots were landed by Hagler who just got on with his work in a plodding, workmanlike way. Watch it with the sound off and you can see Ray is just conning his way through while taking a beating - particularly in the second half. Hagler put in a solid blue collar effort while Ray wooed the casino crowd with the razzmatazz they wanted.

[mickeyb]

I had it by a point to Leonard.

BTW, anyone who can't see that's a razoredge fight that can be scored either way needs to change their meds.

[Quixall]

When I was a kid I got caught up in the support for Sugar Ray's comeback and on whether could he do the impossible. When watching the fight at that time I just watched what Ray was doing and not Hagler. Amazed by the skill Ray still possessed I gave the fight to Leonard easily. As the years have gone by and I understood more about what I was watching I studied the fight again and saw a completely different fight. Yeah Ray fought a fight nobody at the time thought possible of him and this took something away from Hagler's performance. Hagler was supposed to steamroller him but with rewatching I observed Hagler landing the more hurtful single punches while Ray would flurry catching the eye. More flash than anything. A few times towards the end of the bout Ray pulled similar faces to those he would later pull when Terry Norris was putting a beatdown on him. Hagler was hurting him. The fight was close, Ray fought a great fight. Hagler did not fight to his best. I have now scored this fight a few times and always give it to Hagler by 2 rounds.

That's what i did Ketch.......

It's a good point mate, because there is sometimes a tendancy to watch a fight from the underdogs point of view. There is no doubt in my mind that Hagler would have stopped Leonard if it had been a 15 round fight.

[Quixall]

When I was a kid I got caught up in the support for Sugar Ray's comeback and on whether could he do the impossible. When watching the fight at that time I just watched what Ray was doing and not Hagler. Amazed by the skill Ray still possessed I gave the fight to Leonard easily. As the years have gone by and I understood more about what I was watching I studied the fight again and saw a completely different fight. Yeah Ray fought a fight nobody at the time thought possible of him and this took something away from Hagler's performance. Hagler was supposed to steamroller him but with rewatching I observed Hagler landing the more hurtful single punches while Ray would flurry catching the eye. More flash than anything. A few times towards the end of the bout Ray pulled similar faces to those he would later pull when Terry Norris was putting a beatdown on him. Hagler was hurting him. The fight was close, Ray fought a great fight. Hagler did not fight to his best. I have now scored this fight a few times and always give it to Hagler by 2 rounds.

I agree 100 percent. Ray Leonard's performance was smoke and mirrors - a brilliant performance aimed at getting the crowd worked up and catching the eye of the judges. The more meaningful shots were landed by Hagler who just got on with his work in a plodding, workmanlike way. Watch it with the sound off and you can see Ray is just conning his way through while taking a beating - particularly in the second half. Hagler put in a solid blue collar effort while Ray wooed the casino crowd with the razzmatazz they wanted.

I said earlier in a post that the crowd can have a big impact on these occasions. The simple fact was that everytime Hagler went to work, the crowd were silent, but as soon as Leonard did an Ali shuffle, a bowlo punch or put together a flashy combination the crowd went wild. It proves it in a way because one judge had it 118-110 for Leonard, which was ridiculous.