Harry Greb vs Jack Dempsey

[Tomasino]

I take Greb by decision, going simply from what I've read of Greb and seen and read of Dempsey. However, Greb is one of my all time favourites and Jack Dempsey one of my least liked so my opinion is tainted. If personal insults can be avoided it will be a miracle....


Thanks

[jezzamundo]

I hope you're talking about Nonpareil Jack Dempsey, because there's no chance Greb would beat the heavyweight.

[Tomasino]

I hope you're talking about Nonpareil Jack Dempsey, because there's no chance Greb would beat the heavyweight.

Aye, the heavyweight. How do you see the fight going?

[Tomasino]

I hope you're talking about Nonpareil Jack Dempsey, because there's no chance Greb would beat the heavyweight.

At least place a vote man.

[raylawpc]

Benny Leonard reportedly said Greb was beatable by going to the body. Dempsey was a great body puncher.

[beaujack]

I take Greb by decision, going simply from what I've read of Greb and seen and read of Dempsey. However, Greb is one of my all time favourites and Jack Dempsey one of my least liked so my opinion is tainted. If personal insults can be avoided it will be a miracle....


Thanks

D, your pick is wrong for Harry Greb himself was quoted as saying,"after five rounds or so, Jack would kill me ".And who knew better than Harry Greb himself ?...Yes Greb [best P4P fighter] outhustled Dempsey in several training sessions, but in a real brawl a prime Dempsey,twenty five
pounds heavier would have caught up to Harry sooner or later, and stopped the great Pittsburgh Windmill...I agree with Harry Greb's opinion...Training sessions are not the real deal...
P.S. Why your dislike of Jack Dempsey ?.

[Chuck1052]

Jack Dempsey was too big and strong for Harry Greb in a scheduled fifteen-round bout. I believe that Dempsey would win by stoppage, a TKO or a clean knockout.

- Chuck Johnston

[klompton]

I take Greb by decision, going simply from what I've read of Greb and seen and read of Dempsey. However, Greb is one of my all time favourites and Jack Dempsey one of my least liked so my opinion is tainted. If personal insults can be avoided it will be a miracle....


Thanks

D, your pick is wrong for Harry Greb himself was quoted as saying,"after five rounds or so, Jack would kill me ".And who knew better than Harry Greb himself ?...Yes Greb [best P4P fighter] outhustled Dempsey in several training sessions, but in a real brawl a prime Dempsey,twenty five
pounds heavier would have caught up to Harry sooner or later, and stopped the great Pittsburgh Windmill...I agree with Harry Greb's opinion...Training sessions are not the real deal...
P.S. Why your dislike of Jack Dempsey ?.

Bert why do you keep regurgitating these quotes you got out of ring magazine? Greb never said Dempsey would beat him. He spent more than half his career telling anyone and everyone that he would beat Dempsey and how he would do it. Until the day Dempsey lost his title Greb was after a fight with him. Why would he torpedo that by admitting he would lose? From now on if it came from Ring Magazine during your youth, particularly written by Daniel, Igoe, or Fleischer, you can pretty much toss it in the ashcan.

Dempsey had plenty of offers and opportunities to fight Greb and never once would even consider them. Kind of like Wills eh? Had Dempsey really thought he could beat those guys he would have fought them, instead he spent his career feasting on Greb's sloppy seconds, and guys who wouldnt even spar with Greb. Go figure.

[raylawpc]

I take Greb by decision, going simply from what I've read of Greb and seen and read of Dempsey. However, Greb is one of my all time favourites and Jack Dempsey one of my least liked so my opinion is tainted. If personal insults can be avoided it will be a miracle....


Thanks

D, your pick is wrong for Harry Greb himself was quoted as saying,"after five rounds or so, Jack would kill me ".And who knew better than Harry Greb himself ?...Yes Greb [best P4P fighter] outhustled Dempsey in several training sessions, but in a real brawl a prime Dempsey,twenty five
pounds heavier would have caught up to Harry sooner or later, and stopped the great Pittsburgh Windmill...I agree with Harry Greb's opinion...Training sessions are not the real deal...
P.S. Why your dislike of Jack Dempsey ?.

Bert why do you keep regurgitating these quotes you got out of ring magazine? Greb never said Dempsey would beat him. He spent more than half his career telling anyone and everyone that he would beat Dempsey and how he would do it. Until the day Dempsey lost his title Greb was after a fight with him. Why would he torpedo that by admitting he would lose? From now on if it came from Ring Magazine during your youth, particularly written by Daniel, Igoe, or Fleischer, you can pretty much toss it in the ashcan.

Dempsey had plenty of offers and opportunities to fight Greb and never once would even consider them. Kind of like Wills eh? Had Dempsey really thought he could beat those guys he would have fought them, instead he spent his career feasting on Greb's sloppy seconds, and guys who wouldnt even spar with Greb. Go figure.

Can you list some of the offers and opportunities for us? Thanks in advance!

[AngryGoon38]

I'm the 1st one to say Dempsey by decision.

Tommy Gibbons,a very good but not great LHW went 15 with Dempsey,why not then Greb ?!

[Boilermaker]

I'm the 1st one to say Dempsey by decision.

Tommy Gibbons,a very good but not great LHW went 15 with Dempsey,why not then Greb ?!

Dempsey wasnt the only great fighter Gibbons went the distance with, he also went the distance and twice beat Harry Greb

[Goodnight, Irene]

I take Greb by decision, going simply from what I've read of Greb and seen and read of Dempsey. However, Greb is one of my all time favourites and Jack Dempsey one of my least liked so my opinion is tainted. If personal insults can be avoided it will be a miracle....


Thanks

D, your pick is wrong for Harry Greb himself was quoted as saying,"after five rounds or so, Jack would kill me ".And who knew better than Harry Greb himself ?...Yes Greb [best P4P fighter] outhustled Dempsey in several training sessions, but in a real brawl a prime Dempsey,twenty five
pounds heavier would have caught up to Harry sooner or later, and stopped the great Pittsburgh Windmill...I agree with Harry Greb's opinion...Training sessions are not the real deal...
P.S. Why your dislike of Jack Dempsey ?.

Bert why do you keep regurgitating these quotes you got out of ring magazine? Greb never said Dempsey would beat him. He spent more than half his career telling anyone and everyone that he would beat Dempsey and how he would do it. Until the day Dempsey lost his title Greb was after a fight with him. Why would he torpedo that by admitting he would lose? From now on if it came from Ring Magazine during your youth, particularly written by Daniel, Igoe, or Fleischer, you can pretty much toss it in the ashcan.

Dempsey had plenty of offers and opportunities to fight Greb and never once would even consider them. Kind of like Wills eh? Had Dempsey really thought he could beat those guys he would have fought them, instead he spent his career feasting on Greb's sloppy seconds, and guys who wouldnt even spar with Greb. Go figure.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I'm the 1st one to say Dempsey by decision.

Tommy Gibbons,a very good but not great LHW went 15 with Dempsey,why not then Greb ?!

You think for one minute Greb would follow that fightplan?

[jezzamundo]

Whatever truth (or lack thereof) there is behind it, I think Dempsey by KO/TKO around the 5th round is about right. He was naturally the bigger, stronger, longer man and I can't see a scenario where he wouldn't eventually get to Greb's chin, excellent though it was. You are essentially putting a cruiserweight with a heavyweight's punch against a middleweight. As remarkable as Greb was, I think Dempsey was a much bigger puncher than Tunney and while Greb would likely have taken most of the early rounds, I don't see him lasting the distance.

[Techno89]

Dempsey by clean KO

[BoxBuzz]

I've seen Jack fight many times on film, No one has ever seen Greb on film..... by my math it has to be Greb by clean KO.

[beaujack]

I take Greb by decision, going simply from what I've read of Greb and seen and read of Dempsey. However, Greb is one of my all time favourites and Jack Dempsey one of my least liked so my opinion is tainted. If personal insults can be avoided it will be a miracle....


Thanks

D, your pick is wrong for Harry Greb himself was quoted as saying,"after five rounds or so, Jack would kill me ".And who knew better than Harry Greb himself ?...Yes Greb [best P4P fighter] outhustled Dempsey in several training sessions, but in a real brawl a prime Dempsey,twenty five
pounds heavier would have caught up to Harry sooner or later, and stopped the great Pittsburgh Windmill...I agree with Harry Greb's opinion...Training sessions are not the real deal...
P.S. Why your dislike of Jack Dempsey ?.

Bert why do you keep regurgitating these quotes you got out of ring magazine? Greb never said Dempsey would beat him. He spent more than half his career telling anyone and everyone that he would beat Dempsey and how he would do it. Until the day Dempsey lost his title Greb was after a fight with him. Why would he torpedo that by admitting he would lose? From now on if it came from Ring Magazine during your youth, particularly written by Daniel, Igoe, or Fleischer, you can pretty much toss it in the ashcan.

Dempsey had plenty of offers and opportunities to fight Greb and never once would even consider them. Kind of like Wills eh? Had Dempsey really thought he could beat those guys he would have fought them, instead he spent his career feasting on Greb's sloppy seconds, and guys who wouldnt even spar with Greb. Go figure.

K,Not to be redundant, I had read Greb's quote several times from several articles...I do NOT LIE. Too old for that...I took Greb's "quote" at face value, as I do whenever a writer of the distant past scribes in an article...Yes Greb wanted to fight Dempsey, cause Harry [my very favorite fighter] was as a book title described FEARLESS...But it is possible that Greb would plant that quote implying "Dempsey after 5 rounds would KILL me", as a ploy to entice Dempsey to fight Greb for an easy payday...After all Greb was known for his "acts' such as staggering out of a cab ,supposedly drunk before a fight, and at restaurants ordering shots of liquor and clandestinely pouring his drinks under the table...
Greb was a wily ol cuss...So ,read these quotes I DID. Whether Greb was using tactics to encourage
Dempsey to agree to a bout, I know not...But one other point...It was a no win situation for Dempsey
who had his pick of opponents as Jack was the greatest drawing card ever...If Greb beats him [VERY DOUBTFUL], Dempsey loses his crown and reputation...Bad for his career. If Dempsey beats Harry Greb, the fans would say ,"so what, beating a little middleweight ". A no-win situation...My 2 very favorite gladiators of ALLTIME...

[Crease]

Dempsey eventually catches up with Greb and knocks him out.

[klompton]

D, your pick is wrong for Harry Greb himself was quoted as saying,"after five rounds or so, Jack would kill me ".And who knew better than Harry Greb himself ?...Yes Greb [best P4P fighter] outhustled Dempsey in several training sessions, but in a real brawl a prime Dempsey,twenty five
pounds heavier would have caught up to Harry sooner or later, and stopped the great Pittsburgh Windmill...I agree with Harry Greb's opinion...Training sessions are not the real deal...
P.S. Why your dislike of Jack Dempsey ?.

Bert why do you keep regurgitating these quotes you got out of ring magazine? Greb never said Dempsey would beat him. He spent more than half his career telling anyone and everyone that he would beat Dempsey and how he would do it. Until the day Dempsey lost his title Greb was after a fight with him. Why would he torpedo that by admitting he would lose? From now on if it came from Ring Magazine during your youth, particularly written by Daniel, Igoe, or Fleischer, you can pretty much toss it in the ashcan.

Dempsey had plenty of offers and opportunities to fight Greb and never once would even consider them. Kind of like Wills eh? Had Dempsey really thought he could beat those guys he would have fought them, instead he spent his career feasting on Greb's sloppy seconds, and guys who wouldnt even spar with Greb. Go figure.

Can you list some of the offers and opportunities for us? Thanks in advance!

Yes, in May 1920 Greb signed a contract to fight Dempsey in Buffalo. Dempsey was to get $50,000 (the same he got paid for Miske) and Greb was to get $15,000. Dempsey didnt sign. In October of 1920 Frank Mulkern of Milwaukee signed Greb to a contract to face Dempsey after Dempsey had spoken favorably of the match. When Greb signed Dempsey looked the other way. He instead tried to fight Gunboat Smith as a title defense. Trying to force Dempsey into a match Greb fought the Gunner first and KOd him in one round. Then T.S. Andrews travelled to South Bend (where the Greb-Smith bout was held) in order to try to secure a match between Dempsey and Greb but Carpentier had just beaten Levinsky in Rickard's fixed LHW championship which set up his million dollar gate, Dempsey was not about to face anyone as threatening as Greb with that bonanza on the table. Instead Kearns tried to match Dempsey with Bartley Madden so Greb fought Madden, once again trying to force a match with Dempsey, and dominated him. With Madden and Smith eliminated Dempsey signed to fight Bill Brennan, who Greb had dominated four times and Brennan damn near beat Dempsey. But the day before Dempsey defended against Brennan John McGarvey and John J. Bell of the Motor Square Garden club personally offered Kearns $50,000 with 50% of the gate to face Greb but after having so much trouble with Brennan Dempsey again begged off. Instead both Dempsey and Carp (who Greb was also actively pursuing) where shelved off from all competition in fear of losing before their big showdown. While training for Carpentier Kearns put out the word that he wanted anyone capable to come spar with the champion. Greb made it known he was on his way and Kearns promptly announced that they didnt need anyone else. In early 1922 Greb was matched with Tom Gibbons in a title eliminator for Dempsey. Greb dominated Gibbons and both Kearns and Dempsey stated that they would face Greb. Instead they went to Europe and when they came back they refused to face him. In the summer of 1922 John J. Bell made another offer to Dempsey, this time for $100,000 and 50% of the gate. Once again Kearns refused to consider the offer. In the summer of 1923 Kearns was again offered $100,000 with a percentage of the gate to face Greb up around Uniontown, and once again Kearns ignored the offer. And on and on and on. Everytime Kearns and Rickard tried to find a new setup for Dempsey to face Greb would chase after him and either beat him or be ducked by him trying to remove all obstacles to face Dempsey. Continually he was ignored. In 1925 Floyd Fitzsimmons held a poll of midwestern newspaperman asking who they would like him to match Dempsey with. Greb won the poll and Fitzsimmons approached Dempsey and Kearns. They agreed, yet when Greb wired that he was on a train for Chicago to sign papers Dempsey and Kearns stated they wouldnt be fighting Greb or anyone else that year...

All the while Greb was telling anyone and everyone how it was the ambition of his life to fight and beat Dempsey and yet Im supposed to believe some unattributed quote that appeared in Ring Magazine 30 years later written by a writer hostile to Greb saying that Greb thought Dempsey would beat him??? Uh, no, I'll take the mans own words printed that day before I believe what was printed in Ring Magazine years after he died.

[klompton]

I do NOT LIE. Too old for that...

Lying and not knowing what you are talking about are two different things. Ive educated you on this very instance in the past and still you persist on spouting this nonsense because it conforms to your views on Dempsey, not because it is grounded in any fact.

[klompton]

I'm the 1st one to say Dempsey by decision.

Tommy Gibbons,a very good but not great LHW went 15 with Dempsey,why not then Greb ?!

You think for one minute Greb would follow that fightplan?

Why not, Greb was a great tactician.

[Tomasino]

I take Greb by decision, going simply from what I've read of Greb and seen and read of Dempsey. However, Greb is one of my all time favourites and Jack Dempsey one of my least liked so my opinion is tainted. If personal insults can be avoided it will be a miracle....


Thanks

D, your pick is wrong for Harry Greb himself was quoted as saying,"after five rounds or so, Jack would kill me ".And who knew better than Harry Greb himself ?...Yes Greb [best P4P fighter] outhustled Dempsey in several training sessions, but in a real brawl a prime Dempsey,twenty five
pounds heavier would have caught up to Harry sooner or later, and stopped the great Pittsburgh Windmill...I agree with Harry Greb's opinion...Training sessions are not the real deal...
P.S. Why your dislike of Jack Dempsey ?.

I just think he was a terrible guy and a well matched fighter. I'd read stuff years ago about Dempsey ducking Greb and Harry Wills, when I read into it I found Dempsey was a despicable guy who IMO is very over rated. All that American hero rubbish, hype and ducking a middleweight makes me dislike the media creation and the man himself.


I didn't know half of what Klompton posted but its a lot going against Dempsey.

[klompton]

I take Greb by decision, going simply from what I've read of Greb and seen and read of Dempsey. However, Greb is one of my all time favourites and Jack Dempsey one of my least liked so my opinion is tainted. If personal insults can be avoided it will be a miracle....


Thanks

D, your pick is wrong for Harry Greb himself was quoted as saying,"after five rounds or so, Jack would kill me ".And who knew better than Harry Greb himself ?...Yes Greb [best P4P fighter] outhustled Dempsey in several training sessions, but in a real brawl a prime Dempsey,twenty five
pounds heavier would have caught up to Harry sooner or later, and stopped the great Pittsburgh Windmill...I agree with Harry Greb's opinion...Training sessions are not the real deal...
P.S. Why your dislike of Jack Dempsey ?.

I just think he was a terrible guy and a well matched fighter. I'd read stuff years ago about Dempsey ducking Greb and Harry Wills, when I read into it I found Dempsey was a despicable guy who IMO is very over rated. All that American hero rubbish, hype and ducking a middleweight makes me dislike the media creation and the man himself.


I didn't know half of what Klompton posted but its a lot going against Dempsey.

The way Wills was ducked is even worse. Talk about an interesting book. The story of Wills chasing Dempsey would make a hell of an interesting book. All of the back room deals and just plain weaseling that Dempsey and Kearns pulled to avoid Wills. I like Dempsey, his story is interesting and hes fun to watch but it cannot be denied that a great part of his myth was constructed by the media and by hype and not by anything he did himself.

Ive always found this quote very telling. It was taken in July 1921 when Dempsey was on his way west after defeating Carpentier. He stopped off in Omaha and was interviewed:

"I will never fight a negro. There is nothing to this talk of me meeting Jack Johnson (there was talk of Johnson challenging Dempsey around this time). I am confident the public dont want this fight, and while I will govern myself to a large extent according to public wishes, I can't see my way clear to fight Johnson or any other colored man. I will meet anyone else that Kearns picks for me. Gibbons, I understand is a good man, although I have never seen him work. As I have drawn the color line, I am free to say that I think Harry Wills is a great fighter and who will whip the very best of them."

That pretty much sums it up. Some have argued that Dempsey didnt duck Wills, that the people around him. The truth is Dempsey was as complicite as anyone. Others have argued that Dempsey wasnt a racist he was just abiding by the dictates of a racist world. I dont know for certain about this but I do know that for years and years Dempsey was a referee, manager, and promoter and he always favored white fighters and spent years and years looking for the next great white hope. I dont recall him ever handling a black fighter. Ive said before and I'll say again: Had Dempsey and his handlers truly believed that Greb and Wills were the easy opponents that his fans seem to think they would have taken those fights in a heart beat. There were promoters all over willing and able to promote those bouts and Dempsey simply looked the other way, even when it meant taking less money, or no money (i.e. staying retired for years on end) as an alternative.

[BoxBuzz]

At least fighters understand that there are "no easy fights" when it comes to well trained disciplined contenders. E.G. Braddock-Baer, Douglas-Tyson...and a myriad of other upsets.

When it's the top 25% of the talent pool anything can happen. So it was a serious risk.

And at that time, it may well have been just another excuse to avoid a few of the top contenders.....though cloaked in some pretty awful additional baggage aka racism.

[raylawpc]

Bert why do you keep regurgitating these quotes you got out of ring magazine? Greb never said Dempsey would beat him. He spent more than half his career telling anyone and everyone that he would beat Dempsey and how he would do it. Until the day Dempsey lost his title Greb was after a fight with him. Why would he torpedo that by admitting he would lose? From now on if it came from Ring Magazine during your youth, particularly written by Daniel, Igoe, or Fleischer, you can pretty much toss it in the ashcan.

Dempsey had plenty of offers and opportunities to fight Greb and never once would even consider them. Kind of like Wills eh? Had Dempsey really thought he could beat those guys he would have fought them, instead he spent his career feasting on Greb's sloppy seconds, and guys who wouldnt even spar with Greb. Go figure.

Can you list some of the offers and opportunities for us? Thanks in advance!

Yes, in May 1920 Greb signed a contract to fight Dempsey in Buffalo. Dempsey was to get $50,000 (the same he got paid for Miske) and Greb was to get $15,000. Dempsey didnt sign. In October of 1920 Frank Mulkern of Milwaukee signed Greb to a contract to face Dempsey after Dempsey had spoken favorably of the match. When Greb signed Dempsey looked the other way. He instead tried to fight Gunboat Smith as a title defense. Trying to force Dempsey into a match Greb fought the Gunner first and KOd him in one round. Then T.S. Andrews travelled to South Bend (where the Greb-Smith bout was held) in order to try to secure a match between Dempsey and Greb but Carpentier had just beaten Levinsky in Rickard's fixed LHW championship which set up his million dollar gate, Dempsey was not about to face anyone as threatening as Greb with that bonanza on the table. Instead Kearns tried to match Dempsey with Bartley Madden so Greb fought Madden, once again trying to force a match with Dempsey, and dominated him. With Madden and Smith eliminated Dempsey signed to fight Bill Brennan, who Greb had dominated four times and Brennan damn near beat Dempsey. But the day before Dempsey defended against Brennan John McGarvey and John J. Bell of the Motor Square Garden club personally offered Kearns $50,000 with 50% of the gate to face Greb but after having so much trouble with Brennan Dempsey again begged off. Instead both Dempsey and Carp (who Greb was also actively pursuing) where shelved off from all competition in fear of losing before their big showdown. While training for Carpentier Kearns put out the word that he wanted anyone capable to come spar with the champion. Greb made it known he was on his way and Kearns promptly announced that they didnt need anyone else. In early 1922 Greb was matched with Tom Gibbons in a title eliminator for Dempsey. Greb dominated Gibbons and both Kearns and Dempsey stated that they would face Greb. Instead they went to Europe and when they came back they refused to face him. In the summer of 1922 John J. Bell made another offer to Dempsey, this time for $100,000 and 50% of the gate. Once again Kearns refused to consider the offer. In the summer of 1923 Kearns was again offered $100,000 with a percentage of the gate to face Greb up around Uniontown, and once again Kearns ignored the offer. And on and on and on. Everytime Kearns and Rickard tried to find a new setup for Dempsey to face Greb would chase after him and either beat him or be ducked by him trying to remove all obstacles to face Dempsey. Continually he was ignored. In 1925 Floyd Fitzsimmons held a poll of midwestern newspaperman asking who they would like him to match Dempsey with. Greb won the poll and Fitzsimmons approached Dempsey and Kearns. They agreed, yet when Greb wired that he was on a train for Chicago to sign papers Dempsey and Kearns stated they wouldnt be fighting Greb or anyone else that year...

All the while Greb was telling anyone and everyone how it was the ambition of his life to fight and beat Dempsey and yet Im supposed to believe some unattributed quote that appeared in Ring Magazine 30 years later written by a writer hostile to Greb saying that Greb thought Dempsey would beat him??? Uh, no, I'll take the mans own words printed that day before I believe what was printed in Ring Magazine years after he died.

Thanks.