Harry Greb vs Jack Dempsey

[Boilermaker]

D, your pick is wrong for Harry Greb himself was quoted as saying,"after five rounds or so, Jack would kill me ".And who knew better than Harry Greb himself ?...Yes Greb [best P4P fighter] outhustled Dempsey in several training sessions, but in a real brawl a prime Dempsey,twenty five
pounds heavier would have caught up to Harry sooner or later, and stopped the great Pittsburgh Windmill...I agree with Harry Greb's opinion...Training sessions are not the real deal...
P.S. Why your dislike of Jack Dempsey ?.

I just think he was a terrible guy and a well matched fighter. I'd read stuff years ago about Dempsey ducking Greb and Harry Wills, when I read into it I found Dempsey was a despicable guy who IMO is very over rated. All that American hero rubbish, hype and ducking a middleweight makes me dislike the media creation and the man himself.


I didn't know half of what Klompton posted but its a lot going against Dempsey.

The way Wills was ducked is even worse. Talk about an interesting book. The story of Wills chasing Dempsey would make a hell of an interesting book. All of the back room deals and just plain weaseling that Dempsey and Kearns pulled to avoid Wills. I like Dempsey, his story is interesting and hes fun to watch but it cannot be denied that a great part of his myth was constructed by the media and by hype and not by anything he did himself.

Ive always found this quote very telling. It was taken in July 1921 when Dempsey was on his way west after defeating Carpentier. He stopped off in Omaha and was interviewed:

"I will never fight a negro. There is nothing to this talk of me meeting Jack Johnson (there was talk of Johnson challenging Dempsey around this time). I am confident the public dont want this fight, and while I will govern myself to a large extent according to public wishes, I can't see my way clear to fight Johnson or any other colored man. I will meet anyone else that Kearns picks for me. Gibbons, I understand is a good man, although I have never seen him work. As I have drawn the color line, I am free to say that I think Harry Wills is a great fighter and who will whip the very best of them."

That pretty much sums it up. Some have argued that Dempsey didnt duck Wills, that the people around him. The truth is Dempsey was as complicite as anyone. Others have argued that Dempsey wasnt a racist he was just abiding by the dictates of a racist world. I dont know for certain about this but I do know that for years and years Dempsey was a referee, manager, and promoter and he always favored white fighters and spent years and years looking for the next great white hope. I dont recall him ever handling a black fighter. Ive said before and I'll say again: Had Dempsey and his handlers truly believed that Greb and Wills were the easy opponents that his fans seem to think they would have taken those fights in a heart beat. There were promoters all over willing and able to promote those bouts and Dempsey simply looked the other way, even when it meant taking less money, or no money (i.e. staying retired for years on end) as an alternative.

Not only did he duck these two guys, but his handlers wanted him to fight Darcy, and he ducked that one as well

I really think that it is impossible to understand the drawing of the colour line today.

It started off purely as a marketing gimmick. The coloured fighters (like it or not) were not the better fighters in the world. When John L started really campaining, he did so (despite the fact that he had already defended his title against the coloured fighter Herbert Slade, and even when on tour with Slade and he had also been prepared to defend against World Coloured champion George (Joe) Godfrey and such fight was only stopped by the police) because it made him out to be an all american hero and increased his image and thus earnings, and it also gave him the chance to prolong his career and reputation by avoiding Peter Jackson. To be fair, by this time Sullivan had retired and it was clear to virtually everyone that Sullivan was going to lose to the next decent fighter he meets. Sullivan admitted, both in private and in later newspaper writings, that when a fighter draws the colour line it is because he knows the coloured fighter is a good chance of beating him.

The colour line continued with Corbett, who used it to dodge Jackson. It had no relevance to Fitzsimmons because there were no coloured challengers at a decent level. With Jeffries, the line was drawn, but really it was used only as a marketing tool to hype up the image of Jeffries. There werent really any recognised coloured challengers. A good crop (JOhnson, Martin, McVey, Langford) were starting to emerge, but they were a little way off yet. the best of the lot, Johnson had been KOd in a round by Choynski and lost his elimination bout to Hart. Neither of which were good enough to challenge Jeffries for the honours. Ultimately, the colour line paid huge dividends for Jeffries and Johnson when they came out of retirement to fight each other.

Tommy Burns continued with the colour line marketing technique but did so in a different way. He actually took it a step further and used it to promote his fight against Jack Johnson. Johnson also continued with this line, and constantly used the colour line to promote fights against great white hopes. Usually these were inferior to available coloured fighters but the line itself hyped it up.

To be fair to Dempsey, when he inherited the colour line, he was a hero because of it, and it is also worth noting that the last time a serious mixed race fight was staged between a hero and a champion race riots and death resulted. This is a valid reason, for dempsey and his handlers to continue with the line. Still, in all of this, you do have to consider that Wills was not only the second best fighter of the era, but he was the second biggest draw and highest paid fighter of the era! It really is hard to understand why such a fight was not made. Is it possible that both these highly paid fighters stood to lose a lot by fighting each other. Wills in fact was in a no win situation i would have thought. If he wins, he is going to lose a lot of his support and fans because he beat the hero (and being black the colour line would make him hated in the johnson mould). If he loses, he will not stay as the number 2 drawcard. there was an awful lot to lose for both fighters, and since both were already such good draws and their fights were already blockbusters, not that much to gain. Dempsey Wills would have been a bigger fight than Dempsey Tunney, but how much more would Dempsey had made? To a lesser extent Firpo Wills must have made Wills close to as much as Dempsey Wills would have.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Johnson did not come out of retirement to face Jeffries and Burns did not draw the colour line.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I'm the 1st one to say Dempsey by decision.

Tommy Gibbons,a very good but not great LHW went 15 with Dempsey,why not then Greb ?!

You think for one minute Greb would follow that fightplan?

Why not, Greb was a great tactician.

Which explains why he wouldnt follow a losing fightplan.

[raylawpc]

I just think he was a terrible guy and a well matched fighter. I'd read stuff years ago about Dempsey ducking Greb and Harry Wills, when I read into it I found Dempsey was a despicable guy who IMO is very over rated. All that American hero rubbish, hype and ducking a middleweight makes me dislike the media creation and the man himself.


I didn't know half of what Klompton posted but its a lot going against Dempsey.

The way Wills was ducked is even worse. Talk about an interesting book. The story of Wills chasing Dempsey would make a hell of an interesting book. All of the back room deals and just plain weaseling that Dempsey and Kearns pulled to avoid Wills. I like Dempsey, his story is interesting and hes fun to watch but it cannot be denied that a great part of his myth was constructed by the media and by hype and not by anything he did himself.

Ive always found this quote very telling. It was taken in July 1921 when Dempsey was on his way west after defeating Carpentier. He stopped off in Omaha and was interviewed:

"I will never fight a negro. There is nothing to this talk of me meeting Jack Johnson (there was talk of Johnson challenging Dempsey around this time). I am confident the public dont want this fight, and while I will govern myself to a large extent according to public wishes, I can't see my way clear to fight Johnson or any other colored man. I will meet anyone else that Kearns picks for me. Gibbons, I understand is a good man, although I have never seen him work. As I have drawn the color line, I am free to say that I think Harry Wills is a great fighter and who will whip the very best of them."

That pretty much sums it up. Some have argued that Dempsey didnt duck Wills, that the people around him. The truth is Dempsey was as complicite as anyone. Others have argued that Dempsey wasnt a racist he was just abiding by the dictates of a racist world. I dont know for certain about this but I do know that for years and years Dempsey was a referee, manager, and promoter and he always favored white fighters and spent years and years looking for the next great white hope. I dont recall him ever handling a black fighter. Ive said before and I'll say again: Had Dempsey and his handlers truly believed that Greb and Wills were the easy opponents that his fans seem to think they would have taken those fights in a heart beat. There were promoters all over willing and able to promote those bouts and Dempsey simply looked the other way, even when it meant taking less money, or no money (i.e. staying retired for years on end) as an alternative.

Not only did he duck these two guys, but his handlers wanted him to fight Darcy, and he ducked that one as well

I really think that it is impossible to understand the drawing of the colour line today.

It started off purely as a marketing gimmick. The coloured fighters (like it or not) were not the better fighters in the world. When John L started really campaining, he did so (despite the fact that he had already defended his title against the coloured fighter Herbert Slade, and even when on tour with Slade and he had also been prepared to defend against World Coloured champion George (Joe) Godfrey and such fight was only stopped by the police) because it made him out to be an all american hero and increased his image and thus earnings, and it also gave him the chance to prolong his career and reputation by avoiding Peter Jackson. To be fair, by this time Sullivan had retired and it was clear to virtually everyone that Sullivan was going to lose to the next decent fighter he meets. Sullivan admitted, both in private and in later newspaper writings, that when a fighter draws the colour line it is because he knows the coloured fighter is a good chance of beating him.

The colour line continued with Corbett, who used it to dodge Jackson. It had no relevance to Fitzsimmons because there were no coloured challengers at a decent level. With Jeffries, the line was drawn, but really it was used only as a marketing tool to hype up the image of Jeffries. There werent really any recognised coloured challengers. A good crop (JOhnson, Martin, McVey, Langford) were starting to emerge, but they were a little way off yet. the best of the lot, Johnson had been KOd in a round by Choynski and lost his elimination bout to Hart. Neither of which were good enough to challenge Jeffries for the honours. Ultimately, the colour line paid huge dividends for Jeffries and Johnson when they came out of retirement to fight each other.

Tommy Burns continued with the colour line marketing technique but did so in a different way. He actually took it a step further and used it to promote his fight against Jack Johnson. Johnson also continued with this line, and constantly used the colour line to promote fights against great white hopes. Usually these were inferior to available coloured fighters but the line itself hyped it up.

To be fair to Dempsey, when he inherited the colour line, he was a hero because of it, and it is also worth noting that the last time a serious mixed race fight was staged between a hero and a champion race riots and death resulted. This is a valid reason, for dempsey and his handlers to continue with the line. Still, in all of this, you do have to consider that Wills was not only the second best fighter of the era, but he was the second biggest draw and highest paid fighter of the era! It really is hard to understand why such a fight was not made. Is it possible that both these highly paid fighters stood to lose a lot by fighting each other. Wills in fact was in a no win situation i would have thought. If he wins, he is going to lose a lot of his support and fans because he beat the hero (and being black the colour line would make him hated in the johnson mould). If he loses, he will not stay as the number 2 drawcard. there was an awful lot to lose for both fighters, and since both were already such good draws and their fights were already blockbusters, not that much to gain. Dempsey Wills would have been a bigger fight than Dempsey Tunney, but how much more would Dempsey had made? To a lesser extent Firpo Wills must have made Wills close to as much as Dempsey Wills would have.

With all due respect, a few glaring errors and a question:

1. Jim Corbett tried to arrange a fight with Peter Jackson, but Jackson demanded too much of the purse, and the fight never came off. But Corbett was willing to fight him.

2. Jeffries did not draw the color line until 1901. It seem to coincide with his change in managers from Billy Brady to Billy Delaney. Jeff drew the color line when a bout with Denver Ed Martin was proposed. Another good black heavyweight early in Jeff's reign was Frank Childs. And, early on, there was Klondike.

3. Can you supply a reference to the supposed Sullivan statement that "when a fighter draws the colour line it is because he knows the coloured fighter is a good chance of beating him."

4. Jack Johnson did not come out of retirement to fight Jim Jeffries.

[Boilermaker]

The way Wills was ducked is even worse. Talk about an interesting book. The story of Wills chasing Dempsey would make a hell of an interesting book. All of the back room deals and just plain weaseling that Dempsey and Kearns pulled to avoid Wills. I like Dempsey, his story is interesting and hes fun to watch but it cannot be denied that a great part of his myth was constructed by the media and by hype and not by anything he did himself.

Ive always found this quote very telling. It was taken in July 1921 when Dempsey was on his way west after defeating Carpentier. He stopped off in Omaha and was interviewed:

"I will never fight a negro. There is nothing to this talk of me meeting Jack Johnson (there was talk of Johnson challenging Dempsey around this time). I am confident the public dont want this fight, and while I will govern myself to a large extent according to public wishes, I can't see my way clear to fight Johnson or any other colored man. I will meet anyone else that Kearns picks for me. Gibbons, I understand is a good man, although I have never seen him work. As I have drawn the color line, I am free to say that I think Harry Wills is a great fighter and who will whip the very best of them."

That pretty much sums it up. Some have argued that Dempsey didnt duck Wills, that the people around him. The truth is Dempsey was as complicite as anyone. Others have argued that Dempsey wasnt a racist he was just abiding by the dictates of a racist world. I dont know for certain about this but I do know that for years and years Dempsey was a referee, manager, and promoter and he always favored white fighters and spent years and years looking for the next great white hope. I dont recall him ever handling a black fighter. Ive said before and I'll say again: Had Dempsey and his handlers truly believed that Greb and Wills were the easy opponents that his fans seem to think they would have taken those fights in a heart beat. There were promoters all over willing and able to promote those bouts and Dempsey simply looked the other way, even when it meant taking less money, or no money (i.e. staying retired for years on end) as an alternative.

Not only did he duck these two guys, but his handlers wanted him to fight Darcy, and he ducked that one as well

I really think that it is impossible to understand the drawing of the colour line today.

It started off purely as a marketing gimmick. The coloured fighters (like it or not) were not the better fighters in the world. When John L started really campaining, he did so (despite the fact that he had already defended his title against the coloured fighter Herbert Slade, and even when on tour with Slade and he had also been prepared to defend against World Coloured champion George (Joe) Godfrey and such fight was only stopped by the police) because it made him out to be an all american hero and increased his image and thus earnings, and it also gave him the chance to prolong his career and reputation by avoiding Peter Jackson. To be fair, by this time Sullivan had retired and it was clear to virtually everyone that Sullivan was going to lose to the next decent fighter he meets. Sullivan admitted, both in private and in later newspaper writings, that when a fighter draws the colour line it is because he knows the coloured fighter is a good chance of beating him.

The colour line continued with Corbett, who used it to dodge Jackson. It had no relevance to Fitzsimmons because there were no coloured challengers at a decent level. With Jeffries, the line was drawn, but really it was used only as a marketing tool to hype up the image of Jeffries. There werent really any recognised coloured challengers. A good crop (JOhnson, Martin, McVey, Langford) were starting to emerge, but they were a little way off yet. the best of the lot, Johnson had been KOd in a round by Choynski and lost his elimination bout to Hart. Neither of which were good enough to challenge Jeffries for the honours. Ultimately, the colour line paid huge dividends for Jeffries and Johnson when they came out of retirement to fight each other.

Tommy Burns continued with the colour line marketing technique but did so in a different way. He actually took it a step further and used it to promote his fight against Jack Johnson. Johnson also continued with this line, and constantly used the colour line to promote fights against great white hopes. Usually these were inferior to available coloured fighters but the line itself hyped it up.

To be fair to Dempsey, when he inherited the colour line, he was a hero because of it, and it is also worth noting that the last time a serious mixed race fight was staged between a hero and a champion race riots and death resulted. This is a valid reason, for dempsey and his handlers to continue with the line. Still, in all of this, you do have to consider that Wills was not only the second best fighter of the era, but he was the second biggest draw and highest paid fighter of the era! It really is hard to understand why such a fight was not made. Is it possible that both these highly paid fighters stood to lose a lot by fighting each other. Wills in fact was in a no win situation i would have thought. If he wins, he is going to lose a lot of his support and fans because he beat the hero (and being black the colour line would make him hated in the johnson mould). If he loses, he will not stay as the number 2 drawcard. there was an awful lot to lose for both fighters, and since both were already such good draws and their fights were already blockbusters, not that much to gain. Dempsey Wills would have been a bigger fight than Dempsey Tunney, but how much more would Dempsey had made? To a lesser extent Firpo Wills must have made Wills close to as much as Dempsey Wills would have.

With all due respect, a few glaring errors and a question:

1. Jim Corbett tried to arrange a fight with Peter Jackson, but Jackson demanded too much of the purse, and the fight never came off. But Corbett was willing to fight him.

As with Dempsey and Wills there were some negotiations and the fight fell through. Corbett never offered Jackson any sort of decent terms. From memory he wanted the fight down south where lynchings were common place. It also wasnt until Peter Jackson had left for Australia that Corbett started calling him out a bit more seriously. The reality is that Corbett didnt make the fight. Jackson, as far as i am aware, considered that it was Corbett, more so than John L Sullivan, who ducked him and denied him his shot because of the colour line.

2. Jeffries did not draw the color line until 1901. It seem to coincide with his change in managers from Billy Brady to Billy Delaney. Jeff drew the color line when a bout with Denver Ed Martin was proposed. Another good black heavyweight early in Jeff's reign was Frank Childs. And, early on, there was Klondike.

I think it had more to do with none of those guys being standout challengers. Which suggests, like i said, that the colour line was a marketing gimmick designed to get promoters more money out of their fighter, whether this was by hyping up a black vs white angle, or protecting fighters from threats, or artificially giving the white fighters a higher standing in the general fighters eyes.

Klondike, childs and Martin seem to have had pretty good records now, but i dont really think that was the case back then. I think they were underated, but you couldnt place any of those guys ahead of any of the guys Jeffries fought with the exception of Munroe (who only got there by media manipulation) and of course finnegan if you actually count that as a defence. Denver Ed Martin did have a big push at one stage, but he didnt beat enough firstliners. I can recall, i think it was Paddy Slavin, but it might have been Bill Lang or Goddard or one of those guys who commented on Denver Ed Martin, that he was one of their best friends and a great bloke, but he was a sparring partner and not a top liner. While i think him underated, that wasnt the opinion of those of the time. If Martin was good enough he would have got his chance, imo. He wasnt quite good enough. Likewise, Johnson eventually was good enough, and i am sure would have got his chance earlier if he had beaten Hart, or at least dominated hart, despite what a few news reports indicate about the colour line. to illustrate this point, i think jeffries could have got a shot at Sam Langford, if he truly had wanted it.

3. Can you supply a reference to the supposed Sullivan statement that "when a fighter draws the colour line it is because he knows the coloured fighter is a good chance of beating him."

I am a little busy, but i will try to find it for you in time.

4. Jack Johnson did not come out of retirement to fight Jim Jeffries.

You sure about that :??

Obviously it was a typo and i jeffries was the one to come out of retirement.

[Boilermaker]

Johnson did not come out of retirement to face Jeffries and Burns did not draw the colour line.

Burns didnt draw the colour line, but he certainly profited from it. Firstly, it enabled him to establish a claim to the world title, later to unify his claim by beating all other Claimants and national champions. And finally, it gave him his biggest pay day when he used it to promote his fight with Jack Johnson.

As i was suggesting, the colour line was always about Money. Burns used it differently to others and certainly more honourably but still profited from it.

[klompton]

Not only did he duck these two guys, but his handlers wanted him to fight Darcy, and he ducked that one as well

I really think that it is impossible to understand the drawing of the colour line today.

It started off purely as a marketing gimmick. The coloured fighters (like it or not) were not the better fighters in the world. When John L started really campaining, he did so (despite the fact that he had already defended his title against the coloured fighter Herbert Slade, and even when on tour with Slade and he had also been prepared to defend against World Coloured champion George (Joe) Godfrey and such fight was only stopped by the police) because it made him out to be an all american hero and increased his image and thus earnings, and it also gave him the chance to prolong his career and reputation by avoiding Peter Jackson. To be fair, by this time Sullivan had retired and it was clear to virtually everyone that Sullivan was going to lose to the next decent fighter he meets. Sullivan admitted, both in private and in later newspaper writings, that when a fighter draws the colour line it is because he knows the coloured fighter is a good chance of beating him.

The colour line continued with Corbett, who used it to dodge Jackson. It had no relevance to Fitzsimmons because there were no coloured challengers at a decent level. With Jeffries, the line was drawn, but really it was used only as a marketing tool to hype up the image of Jeffries. There werent really any recognised coloured challengers. A good crop (JOhnson, Martin, McVey, Langford) were starting to emerge, but they were a little way off yet. the best of the lot, Johnson had been KOd in a round by Choynski and lost his elimination bout to Hart. Neither of which were good enough to challenge Jeffries for the honours. Ultimately, the colour line paid huge dividends for Jeffries and Johnson when they came out of retirement to fight each other.

Tommy Burns continued with the colour line marketing technique but did so in a different way. He actually took it a step further and used it to promote his fight against Jack Johnson. Johnson also continued with this line, and constantly used the colour line to promote fights against great white hopes. Usually these were inferior to available coloured fighters but the line itself hyped it up.

To be fair to Dempsey, when he inherited the colour line, he was a hero because of it, and it is also worth noting that the last time a serious mixed race fight was staged between a hero and a champion race riots and death resulted. This is a valid reason, for dempsey and his handlers to continue with the line. Still, in all of this, you do have to consider that Wills was not only the second best fighter of the era, but he was the second biggest draw and highest paid fighter of the era! It really is hard to understand why such a fight was not made. Is it possible that both these highly paid fighters stood to lose a lot by fighting each other. Wills in fact was in a no win situation i would have thought. If he wins, he is going to lose a lot of his support and fans because he beat the hero (and being black the colour line would make him hated in the johnson mould). If he loses, he will not stay as the number 2 drawcard. there was an awful lot to lose for both fighters, and since both were already such good draws and their fights were already blockbusters, not that much to gain. Dempsey Wills would have been a bigger fight than Dempsey Tunney, but how much more would Dempsey had made? To a lesser extent Firpo Wills must have made Wills close to as much as Dempsey Wills would have.

With all due respect, a few glaring errors and a question:

1. Jim Corbett tried to arrange a fight with Peter Jackson, but Jackson demanded too much of the purse, and the fight never came off. But Corbett was willing to fight him.

As with Dempsey and Wills there were some negotiations and the fight fell through. Corbett never offered Jackson any sort of decent terms. From memory he wanted the fight down south where lynchings were common place. It also wasnt until Peter Jackson had left for Australia that Corbett started calling him out a bit more seriously. The reality is that Corbett didnt make the fight. Jackson, as far as i am aware, considered that it was Corbett, more so than John L Sullivan, who ducked him and denied him his shot because of the colour line.

2. Jeffries did not draw the color line until 1901. It seem to coincide with his change in managers from Billy Brady to Billy Delaney. Jeff drew the color line when a bout with Denver Ed Martin was proposed. Another good black heavyweight early in Jeff's reign was Frank Childs. And, early on, there was Klondike.

I think it had more to do with none of those guys being standout challengers. Which suggests, like i said, that the colour line was a marketing gimmick designed to get promoters more money out of their fighter, whether this was by hyping up a black vs white angle, or protecting fighters from threats, or artificially giving the white fighters a higher standing in the general fighters eyes.

Klondike, childs and Martin seem to have had pretty good records now, but i dont really think that was the case back then. I think they were underated, but you couldnt place any of those guys ahead of any of the guys Jeffries fought with the exception of Munroe (who only got there by media manipulation) and of course finnegan if you actually count that as a defence. Denver Ed Martin did have a big push at one stage, but he didnt beat enough firstliners. I can recall, i think it was Paddy Slavin, but it might have been Bill Lang or Goddard or one of those guys who commented on Denver Ed Martin, that he was one of their best friends and a great bloke, but he was a sparring partner and not a top liner. While i think him underated, that wasnt the opinion of those of the time. If Martin was good enough he would have got his chance, imo. He wasnt quite good enough. Likewise, Johnson eventually was good enough, and i am sure would have got his chance earlier if he had beaten Hart, or at least dominated hart, despite what a few news reports indicate about the colour line. to illustrate this point, i think jeffries could have got a shot at Sam Langford, if he truly had wanted it.

3. Can you supply a reference to the supposed Sullivan statement that "when a fighter draws the colour line it is because he knows the coloured fighter is a good chance of beating him."

I am a little busy, but i will try to find it for you in time.

4. Jack Johnson did not come out of retirement to fight Jim Jeffries.

You sure about that :??

Obviously it was a typo and i jeffries was the one to come out of retirement.

The "negotiations" between Dempsey and Wills were never entered into in good faith by Dempsey and Kearns. That becomes plainly clear when you begin to research the 1922 and 1925 contract signings that fell through. Both were sham affairs meant to show that Dempsey was "trying" to sign to fight with Wills when in fact he knew full well he would never have to.

[Goodnight, Irene]

With all due respect, a few glaring errors and a question:

1. Jim Corbett tried to arrange a fight with Peter Jackson, but Jackson demanded too much of the purse, and the fight never came off. But Corbett was willing to fight him.

As with Dempsey and Wills there were some negotiations and the fight fell through. Corbett never offered Jackson any sort of decent terms. From memory he wanted the fight down south where lynchings were common place. It also wasnt until Peter Jackson had left for Australia that Corbett started calling him out a bit more seriously. The reality is that Corbett didnt make the fight. Jackson, as far as i am aware, considered that it was Corbett, more so than John L Sullivan, who ducked him and denied him his shot because of the colour line.

2. Jeffries did not draw the color line until 1901. It seem to coincide with his change in managers from Billy Brady to Billy Delaney. Jeff drew the color line when a bout with Denver Ed Martin was proposed. Another good black heavyweight early in Jeff's reign was Frank Childs. And, early on, there was Klondike.

I think it had more to do with none of those guys being standout challengers. Which suggests, like i said, that the colour line was a marketing gimmick designed to get promoters more money out of their fighter, whether this was by hyping up a black vs white angle, or protecting fighters from threats, or artificially giving the white fighters a higher standing in the general fighters eyes.

Klondike, childs and Martin seem to have had pretty good records now, but i dont really think that was the case back then. I think they were underated, but you couldnt place any of those guys ahead of any of the guys Jeffries fought with the exception of Munroe (who only got there by media manipulation) and of course finnegan if you actually count that as a defence. Denver Ed Martin did have a big push at one stage, but he didnt beat enough firstliners. I can recall, i think it was Paddy Slavin, but it might have been Bill Lang or Goddard or one of those guys who commented on Denver Ed Martin, that he was one of their best friends and a great bloke, but he was a sparring partner and not a top liner. While i think him underated, that wasnt the opinion of those of the time. If Martin was good enough he would have got his chance, imo. He wasnt quite good enough. Likewise, Johnson eventually was good enough, and i am sure would have got his chance earlier if he had beaten Hart, or at least dominated hart, despite what a few news reports indicate about the colour line. to illustrate this point, i think jeffries could have got a shot at Sam Langford, if he truly had wanted it.

3. Can you supply a reference to the supposed Sullivan statement that "when a fighter draws the colour line it is because he knows the coloured fighter is a good chance of beating him."

I am a little busy, but i will try to find it for you in time.

4. Jack Johnson did not come out of retirement to fight Jim Jeffries.

You sure about that :??

Obviously it was a typo and i jeffries was the one to come out of retirement.

The "negotiations" between Dempsey and Wills were never entered into in good faith by Dempsey and Kearns. That becomes plainly clear when you begin to research the 1922 and 1925 contract signings that fell through. Both were sham affairs meant to show that Dempsey was "trying" to sign to fight with Wills when in fact he knew full well he would never have to.

Show to whom? Dempsey, at that time, was the biggest, most beloved sports figure, perhaps America has ever produced. He had no one serious to win over.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Not only did he duck these two guys, but his handlers wanted him to fight Darcy, and he ducked that one as well

I really think that it is impossible to understand the drawing of the colour line today.

It started off purely as a marketing gimmick. The coloured fighters (like it or not) were not the better fighters in the world. When John L started really campaining, he did so (despite the fact that he had already defended his title against the coloured fighter Herbert Slade, and even when on tour with Slade and he had also been prepared to defend against World Coloured champion George (Joe) Godfrey and such fight was only stopped by the police) because it made him out to be an all american hero and increased his image and thus earnings, and it also gave him the chance to prolong his career and reputation by avoiding Peter Jackson. To be fair, by this time Sullivan had retired and it was clear to virtually everyone that Sullivan was going to lose to the next decent fighter he meets. Sullivan admitted, both in private and in later newspaper writings, that when a fighter draws the colour line it is because he knows the coloured fighter is a good chance of beating him.

The colour line continued with Corbett, who used it to dodge Jackson. It had no relevance to Fitzsimmons because there were no coloured challengers at a decent level. With Jeffries, the line was drawn, but really it was used only as a marketing tool to hype up the image of Jeffries. There werent really any recognised coloured challengers. A good crop (JOhnson, Martin, McVey, Langford) were starting to emerge, but they were a little way off yet. the best of the lot, Johnson had been KOd in a round by Choynski and lost his elimination bout to Hart. Neither of which were good enough to challenge Jeffries for the honours. Ultimately, the colour line paid huge dividends for Jeffries and Johnson when they came out of retirement to fight each other.

Tommy Burns continued with the colour line marketing technique but did so in a different way. He actually took it a step further and used it to promote his fight against Jack Johnson. Johnson also continued with this line, and constantly used the colour line to promote fights against great white hopes. Usually these were inferior to available coloured fighters but the line itself hyped it up.

To be fair to Dempsey, when he inherited the colour line, he was a hero because of it, and it is also worth noting that the last time a serious mixed race fight was staged between a hero and a champion race riots and death resulted. This is a valid reason, for dempsey and his handlers to continue with the line. Still, in all of this, you do have to consider that Wills was not only the second best fighter of the era, but he was the second biggest draw and highest paid fighter of the era! It really is hard to understand why such a fight was not made. Is it possible that both these highly paid fighters stood to lose a lot by fighting each other. Wills in fact was in a no win situation i would have thought. If he wins, he is going to lose a lot of his support and fans because he beat the hero (and being black the colour line would make him hated in the johnson mould). If he loses, he will not stay as the number 2 drawcard. there was an awful lot to lose for both fighters, and since both were already such good draws and their fights were already blockbusters, not that much to gain. Dempsey Wills would have been a bigger fight than Dempsey Tunney, but how much more would Dempsey had made? To a lesser extent Firpo Wills must have made Wills close to as much as Dempsey Wills would have.

With all due respect, a few glaring errors and a question:

1. Jim Corbett tried to arrange a fight with Peter Jackson, but Jackson demanded too much of the purse, and the fight never came off. But Corbett was willing to fight him.

As with Dempsey and Wills there were some negotiations and the fight fell through. Corbett never offered Jackson any sort of decent terms. From memory he wanted the fight down south where lynchings were common place. It also wasnt until Peter Jackson had left for Australia that Corbett started calling him out a bit more seriously. The reality is that Corbett didnt make the fight. Jackson, as far as i am aware, considered that it was Corbett, more so than John L Sullivan, who ducked him and denied him his shot because of the colour line.

2. Jeffries did not draw the color line until 1901. It seem to coincide with his change in managers from Billy Brady to Billy Delaney. Jeff drew the color line when a bout with Denver Ed Martin was proposed. Another good black heavyweight early in Jeff's reign was Frank Childs. And, early on, there was Klondike.

I think it had more to do with none of those guys being standout challengers. Which suggests, like i said, that the colour line was a marketing gimmick designed to get promoters more money out of their fighter, whether this was by hyping up a black vs white angle, or protecting fighters from threats, or artificially giving the white fighters a higher standing in the general fighters eyes.

Klondike, childs and Martin seem to have had pretty good records now, but i dont really think that was the case back then. I think they were underated, but you couldnt place any of those guys ahead of any of the guys Jeffries fought with the exception of Munroe (who only got there by media manipulation) and of course finnegan if you actually count that as a defence. Denver Ed Martin did have a big push at one stage, but he didnt beat enough firstliners. I can recall, i think it was Paddy Slavin, but it might have been Bill Lang or Goddard or one of those guys who commented on Denver Ed Martin, that he was one of their best friends and a great bloke, but he was a sparring partner and not a top liner. While i think him underated, that wasnt the opinion of those of the time. If Martin was good enough he would have got his chance, imo. He wasnt quite good enough. Likewise, Johnson eventually was good enough, and i am sure would have got his chance earlier if he had beaten Hart, or at least dominated hart, despite what a few news reports indicate about the colour line. to illustrate this point, i think jeffries could have got a shot at Sam Langford, if he truly had wanted it.

3. Can you supply a reference to the supposed Sullivan statement that "when a fighter draws the colour line it is because he knows the coloured fighter is a good chance of beating him."

I am a little busy, but i will try to find it for you in time.

4. Jack Johnson did not come out of retirement to fight Jim Jeffries.

You sure about that :??

Obviously it was a typo and i jeffries was the one to come out of retirement.

Quite untrue. Langford wanted no part of Jeffries.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Johnson did not come out of retirement to face Jeffries and Burns did not draw the colour line.

Burns didnt draw the colour line, but he certainly profited from it. Firstly, it enabled him to establish a claim to the world title, later to unify his claim by beating all other Claimants and national champions. And finally, it gave him his biggest pay day when he used it to promote his fight with Jack Johnson.

As i was suggesting, the colour line was always about Money. Burns used it differently to others and certainly more honourably but still profited from it.

How obscene --- a Boxer profiting from his profession!

[Boilermaker]

Johnson did not come out of retirement to face Jeffries and Burns did not draw the colour line.

Burns didnt draw the colour line, but he certainly profited from it. Firstly, it enabled him to establish a claim to the world title, later to unify his claim by beating all other Claimants and national champions. And finally, it gave him his biggest pay day when he used it to promote his fight with Jack Johnson.

As i was suggesting, the colour line was always about Money. Burns used it differently to others and certainly more honourably but still profited from it.

How obscene --- a Boxer profiting from his profession!

Who said it was obscene, you? :??

[gilgamesh]

Dempsey would knock out Greb at some point over the course of 15 rounds. Too ferocious and powerful, Greb a tremendous fighter by all accounts but I can't imagine he has the physical strength to hang with Dempsey.

[klompton]

As with Dempsey and Wills there were some negotiations and the fight fell through. Corbett never offered Jackson any sort of decent terms. From memory he wanted the fight down south where lynchings were common place. It also wasnt until Peter Jackson had left for Australia that Corbett started calling him out a bit more seriously. The reality is that Corbett didnt make the fight. Jackson, as far as i am aware, considered that it was Corbett, more so than John L Sullivan, who ducked him and denied him his shot because of the colour line.
I think it had more to do with none of those guys being standout challengers. Which suggests, like i said, that the colour line was a marketing gimmick designed to get promoters more money out of their fighter, whether this was by hyping up a black vs white angle, or protecting fighters from threats, or artificially giving the white fighters a higher standing in the general fighters eyes.

Klondike, childs and Martin seem to have had pretty good records now, but i dont really think that was the case back then. I think they were underated, but you couldnt place any of those guys ahead of any of the guys Jeffries fought with the exception of Munroe (who only got there by media manipulation) and of course finnegan if you actually count that as a defence. Denver Ed Martin did have a big push at one stage, but he didnt beat enough firstliners. I can recall, i think it was Paddy Slavin, but it might have been Bill Lang or Goddard or one of those guys who commented on Denver Ed Martin, that he was one of their best friends and a great bloke, but he was a sparring partner and not a top liner. While i think him underated, that wasnt the opinion of those of the time. If Martin was good enough he would have got his chance, imo. He wasnt quite good enough. Likewise, Johnson eventually was good enough, and i am sure would have got his chance earlier if he had beaten Hart, or at least dominated hart, despite what a few news reports indicate about the colour line. to illustrate this point, i think jeffries could have got a shot at Sam Langford, if he truly had wanted it. I am a little busy, but i will try to find it for you in time.
You sure about that :??

Obviously it was a typo and i jeffries was the one to come out of retirement.

The "negotiations" between Dempsey and Wills were never entered into in good faith by Dempsey and Kearns. That becomes plainly clear when you begin to research the 1922 and 1925 contract signings that fell through. Both were sham affairs meant to show that Dempsey was "trying" to sign to fight with Wills when in fact he knew full well he would never have to.

Show to whom? Dempsey, at that time, was the biggest, most beloved sports figure, perhaps America has ever produced. He had no one serious to win over.

Uhhh, are you serious? Dempsey was roundly criticised in the press for his avoidence of Wills. He was most certainly not the most beloved sports icon in the world, much less america. Ever hear of his slacker trial? The fans disgust with his long layoffs and high purse demands? Even Dempsey himself admitted that he often times was cast as the villain and didnt win his status as a beloved hero until after the Long Count, which he always said was the best thing to ever happen to him.

[Seamus]

Dempsey get's embarassed for 5 or 6 rds and then scores a brutal KO.

[Goodnight, Irene]

So Dempseys million-dollar gates were the product of the people going to cheer for the OTHER guy?

Wills was a walking prototype of a Dempsey victim anyway. Bigger and slower.

[raylawpc]

So Dempseys million-dollar gates were the product of the people going to cheer for the OTHER guy?

Actually . . . yes.

[Boilermaker]

So Dempseys million-dollar gates were the product of the people going to cheer for the OTHER guy?

Actually . . . yes.

It is an interesting idea. Do you think it would go so far to make Wills the fan favourite against Dempsey?

[raylawpc]

So Dempseys million-dollar gates were the product of the people going to cheer for the OTHER guy?

Actually . . . yes.

It is an interesting idea. Do you think it would go so far to make Wills the fan favourite against Dempsey?

It's not an idea; it's a fact. Dempsey was not popular with fans until his loss to Tunney. Read the newspapers of the day and this fact will become apparent.

[raylawpc]

Not only did he duck these two guys, but his handlers wanted him to fight Darcy, and he ducked that one as well

I really think that it is impossible to understand the drawing of the colour line today.

It started off purely as a marketing gimmick. The coloured fighters (like it or not) were not the better fighters in the world. When John L started really campaining, he did so (despite the fact that he had already defended his title against the coloured fighter Herbert Slade, and even when on tour with Slade and he had also been prepared to defend against World Coloured champion George (Joe) Godfrey and such fight was only stopped by the police) because it made him out to be an all american hero and increased his image and thus earnings, and it also gave him the chance to prolong his career and reputation by avoiding Peter Jackson. To be fair, by this time Sullivan had retired and it was clear to virtually everyone that Sullivan was going to lose to the next decent fighter he meets. Sullivan admitted, both in private and in later newspaper writings, that when a fighter draws the colour line it is because he knows the coloured fighter is a good chance of beating him.

The colour line continued with Corbett, who used it to dodge Jackson. It had no relevance to Fitzsimmons because there were no coloured challengers at a decent level. With Jeffries, the line was drawn, but really it was used only as a marketing tool to hype up the image of Jeffries. There werent really any recognised coloured challengers. A good crop (JOhnson, Martin, McVey, Langford) were starting to emerge, but they were a little way off yet. the best of the lot, Johnson had been KOd in a round by Choynski and lost his elimination bout to Hart. Neither of which were good enough to challenge Jeffries for the honours. Ultimately, the colour line paid huge dividends for Jeffries and Johnson when they came out of retirement to fight each other.

Tommy Burns continued with the colour line marketing technique but did so in a different way. He actually took it a step further and used it to promote his fight against Jack Johnson. Johnson also continued with this line, and constantly used the colour line to promote fights against great white hopes. Usually these were inferior to available coloured fighters but the line itself hyped it up.

To be fair to Dempsey, when he inherited the colour line, he was a hero because of it, and it is also worth noting that the last time a serious mixed race fight was staged between a hero and a champion race riots and death resulted. This is a valid reason, for dempsey and his handlers to continue with the line. Still, in all of this, you do have to consider that Wills was not only the second best fighter of the era, but he was the second biggest draw and highest paid fighter of the era! It really is hard to understand why such a fight was not made. Is it possible that both these highly paid fighters stood to lose a lot by fighting each other. Wills in fact was in a no win situation i would have thought. If he wins, he is going to lose a lot of his support and fans because he beat the hero (and being black the colour line would make him hated in the johnson mould). If he loses, he will not stay as the number 2 drawcard. there was an awful lot to lose for both fighters, and since both were already such good draws and their fights were already blockbusters, not that much to gain. Dempsey Wills would have been a bigger fight than Dempsey Tunney, but how much more would Dempsey had made? To a lesser extent Firpo Wills must have made Wills close to as much as Dempsey Wills would have.

With all due respect, a few glaring errors and a question:

1. Jim Corbett tried to arrange a fight with Peter Jackson, but Jackson demanded too much of the purse, and the fight never came off. But Corbett was willing to fight him.

As with Dempsey and Wills there were some negotiations and the fight fell through. Corbett never offered Jackson any sort of decent terms. From memory he wanted the fight down south where lynchings were common place. It also wasnt until Peter Jackson had left for Australia that Corbett started calling him out a bit more seriously. The reality is that Corbett didnt make the fight. Jackson, as far as i am aware, considered that it was Corbett, more so than John L Sullivan, who ducked him and denied him his shot because of the colour line.

2. Jeffries did not draw the color line until 1901. It seem to coincide with his change in managers from Billy Brady to Billy Delaney. Jeff drew the color line when a bout with Denver Ed Martin was proposed. Another good black heavyweight early in Jeff's reign was Frank Childs. And, early on, there was Klondike.

I think it had more to do with none of those guys being standout challengers. Which suggests, like i said, that the colour line was a marketing gimmick designed to get promoters more money out of their fighter, whether this was by hyping up a black vs white angle, or protecting fighters from threats, or artificially giving the white fighters a higher standing in the general fighters eyes.

Klondike, childs and Martin seem to have had pretty good records now, but i dont really think that was the case back then. I think they were underated, but you couldnt place any of those guys ahead of any of the guys Jeffries fought with the exception of Munroe (who only got there by media manipulation) and of course finnegan if you actually count that as a defence. Denver Ed Martin did have a big push at one stage, but he didnt beat enough firstliners. I can recall, i think it was Paddy Slavin, but it might have been Bill Lang or Goddard or one of those guys who commented on Denver Ed Martin, that he was one of their best friends and a great bloke, but he was a sparring partner and not a top liner. While i think him underated, that wasnt the opinion of those of the time. If Martin was good enough he would have got his chance, imo. He wasnt quite good enough. Likewise, Johnson eventually was good enough, and i am sure would have got his chance earlier if he had beaten Hart, or at least dominated hart, despite what a few news reports indicate about the colour line. to illustrate this point, i think jeffries could have got a shot at Sam Langford, if he truly had wanted it.

3. Can you supply a reference to the supposed Sullivan statement that "when a fighter draws the colour line it is because he knows the coloured fighter is a good chance of beating him."

I am a little busy, but i will try to find it for you in time.

4. Jack Johnson did not come out of retirement to fight Jim Jeffries.

You sure about that :??

Obviously it was a typo and i jeffries was the one to come out of retirement.

1. The terms offered Jackson were not better or worse than the terms offered to any challenger back in those days. It is understandable that Jackson was not pleased with the proposed location of the fight - Florida - but you have to remember that, in those days, prizefighting was an illegal activity. Florida promised a fight without interference by the authorities.

2. So Jeffries drew the color line as a marketing ploy . . . Hmmmm . . .

[klompton]

So Dempseys million-dollar gates were the product of the people going to cheer for the OTHER guy?

Wills was a walking prototype of a Dempsey victim anyway. Bigger and slower.

Why do you think Rickard was so intent on building generic opponents for Dempsey? I mean seriously. Importing a totally unproven guy from half the world away and casting him as the brutish cave man? Or importing the smaller French war hero who was FAR more popular than Dempsey the world over yet whose fame was based more on his looks than his ability? Rickard tried it again with Chilean Quintin Romero Rojas later but Rojas failed to exhibit even the modicum of ability necessary to make it that far. Keep in mind that Dempsey didnt draw million dollar gates against Willard, Miske, Brennan or Gibbons. Far from it. The good gate he got against Willard was at least as much Willard's drawing power (despite the lukewarm attention he gets nowadays dont forget Willard was a massive draw, his fight with Moran was a huge draw and sold it in record time) and the fact that the title had been frozen for three years (not unlike the first Tunney fight). Besides, I never said Dempsey wasnt a draw, just that he was far from being adored by the fans or the "most beloved sports figure of the era" Not by a long shot. Remember, Rickard needed Carpentier for a million gate.

[Giancarlo]

Another interesting one from the past