Elite of the elite:

[BoxBuzz]

I think I would only consider the cases of Tunney, Langford, and Charles for greatest LHW ever.

Is this based on work they did "outside" of the LHW division?

[Crease]

Gene Tunney is up there too imo.

Tunney didn't do enough to be classed as the "elite of the elite" - and certainly not in the same compnay and Robinson or Armstrong.

[Crease]

I've come ever so close to doing that with Langford. Beating Joe Gans & a Heavy likeHarry Wills is one of the more astounding feats I can think of. Imagine someone beating Marquez & Klitschko?

Its amazing to imagine. Wont see it ever again, though.

Agreed gents.

It's definitely mind-boggling some of the feats that these old-timers got up to. If someone was to win a Lightweight World Title - then beat Pacquaio/Mayweather at Welkterweight, then go to Middleweight and beat Martinez, then progressively move up to Heavyweight and then beat Wladimir Klitschko...

They would rpobably be remembered as the Greatest Of All Time - well, by the younger generation anyway.

[Tomasino]

Gene Tunney is up there too imo.

Tunney didn't do enough to be classed as the "elite of the elite" - and certainly not in the same compnay and Robinson or Armstrong.

I dont see any shame in rating Tunney so highly. He was one of the most adaptable fighters ever. He obviously fought in the shadow of media darling Dempsey and so was under-appreciated in his own time. Tunney had everything a great fighter should have. I also tend to think of him as the most successful boxer ever due to the fact he got out in time and made his life exactly how he wanted it. A true boxing genius.

[JAMIE COLLETT]

i cant understand what is going on here-Gente Tunney lost one fight out of 68no....

and one draw

he beat the so-called savage Jack Dempsey,fought Harry Greb around 5times and lost only once

he must be in the top five of all time

[Goodnight, Irene]

I wouldnt say Tunney must be in the top-5 --- thats pushing it a bit far, IMO, much as I tout the man myself.

He's top-20 material though, no question.

[BoxBuzz]

Everybody who ever beat Harry Greb, should be in the top 5. So Gene is safe. ....uh...unless Greb lost to more than 5 people....then it's going to get confusing.


I've actually seen film footage of Gene Tunney's abilities AND he beat Harry Greb a few times........he's a keeper!

[BoxBuzz]

crap....I just realized I'm going to catch hell for my cavalier attitude concerning Harry Greb.

I may have a tidy sum of "hail mary's" to repeat for my indiscretion.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

crap....I just realized I'm going to catch hell for my cavalier attitude concerning Harry Greb.

I may have a tidy sum of "hail mary's" to repeat for my indiscretion.

As well you should, word has it Harry Greb might be a member of the strictly undercover Elmer Top 100. So as not to quote two insane posts, DelaHoya handily beat Molina, the only person who thought he didn't was Harold Ledderman and people like yourself that follow him blindly to support their hatred. Chavez was undoubtedly greater than Oscar, he was also much smaller and he nver beat anyone that good. That doesn't mean he couldn't, but your assertion that is a foregone conclusion is one of your sillier statements in a posting career full of them.

[scallum]

I just learned the Tunney opted not to fight the top colored fighters of his day. I was wondering if the same was true of Greb? I wonder why Ketchell fought Langford when he did not have to?

[raylawpc]

I just learned the Tunney opted not to fight the top colored fighters of his day. I was wondering if the same was true of Greb? I wonder why Ketchell fought Langford when he did not have to?

Not true. Billy Gibson tried to secure a fight for Gene with Harry Wills, but Wills' manager passed on it.

[Crease]

bump.

[Boilermaker]

I just learned the Tunney opted not to fight the top colored fighters of his day. I was wondering if the same was true of Greb? I wonder why Ketchell fought Langford when he did not have to?

Not true. Billy Gibson tried to secure a fight for Gene with Harry Wills, but Wills' manager passed on it.

Didnt he try to secure Wills when Wills was old and ripe for the picking, but at the same time openly refuse to fight Godfrey who was younger and considered more dangerous? Admittedly it was probably a risk vs reward thing but still.

[raylawpc]

I just learned the Tunney opted not to fight the top colored fighters of his day. I was wondering if the same was true of Greb? I wonder why Ketchell fought Langford when he did not have to?

Not true. Billy Gibson tried to secure a fight for Gene with Harry Wills, but Wills' manager passed on it.

Didnt he try to secure Wills when Wills was old and ripe for the picking, but at the same time openly refuse to fight Godfrey who was younger and considered more dangerous? Admittedly it was probably a risk vs reward thing but still.

He tried to secure Wills to force a elimination fight with the winner to meet Dempsey. But Wills' manager, believing Wills was the only logical challenger and that he had the boxing public on his side, declined.

What would Tunney have gained by fighting Godfrey?

[klompton]

He tried to secure Wills to force a elimination fight with the winner to meet Dempsey. But Wills' manager, believing Wills was the only logical challenger and that he had the boxing public on his side, declined.

Exactly, and Wills was right to take the high road. over the course of 7 years he had fought and won half a dozen "elimination" matches and the only purpose they served was to show Dempsey that Wills could still fight and as such they essentially eliminated Wills. Thats a nice little theme with Dempsey, his elimination matches eliminated any hope of the winner actually challenging Dempsey. Why should Wills have fought an endless succession of elimination matches only to never get a title a shot. In reality the only purpose they served was that they kept leading Wills around by the nose and hoped that eventually he would get old and one of these guys would beat him, eliminating him, which is what happened. Then they could say "oh see, he wasnt that good anyway." Never mind that he was Dempsey's logical contender for years and even when Tunney (who was supposedly after a match with Wills, and Id have to see that fight to ever believe it would come off) essentially won the lottery and was chosen as Dempsey's challenger it served to get Dempsey banned in New York. So lets not pretend Wills was ducking the best competition, or Tunney for that matter. He was simply saying "Ive established myself as the number one contender several times over and several years over and its time I fought the champion, not a bunch of guys he dictates that want to take my place."

[scotto]

has everybody forgot barney ross?

[BoxBuzz]

has everybody forgot barney ross?

barney who?

[Tomasino]

LOL

I have him at 9 on my list.

[raylawpc]

has everybody forgot barney ross?

barney who?

Nope! I just don't put him quite in the "elite of the elite" category as Ray Robinson, Sam Langford, Harry Greb, Henry Armstrong, Benny Leonard and Willie Pep.

[Chuck1052]

You can bet that that Peter Jackson, Sam McVey, Sam Langford, Joe Jeannette, Harry Wills and the second version of George Godfrey would have had world championship bouts if they were white. Can you name one white heavyweight with a resume similar to that of the mentioned fighters who didn't have a world championship bout?

- Chuck Johnston

[Boilermaker]

You can bet that that Peter Jackson, Sam McVey, Sam Langford, Joe Jeannette, Harry Wills and the second version of George Godfrey would have had world championship bouts if they were white. Can you name one white heavyweight with a resume similar to that of the mentioned fighters who didn't have a world championship bout?

- Chuck Johnston

Peter Jackson - Corbett had a similar resume considering they both drew with each other. Neither could really argue against getting the shot at John L being fair because of this. Slavin and Goddard had reasonably similar claims to Jackson (obviously not quite as good) and neither got a shot at the title. Although, it must be noted, that for a long time before (and in many cases after) Peter Jackson actually was considered the World champion in most parts of the world. Obviously Corbett ducked Jackson, imo, alhtough there are certainly comments attributable to corbett around the time where he said he was not drawing the colour line. this is quite interesting actually and something i have never really considered much. I would like to see if Corbett draws the colour line after Jackson is eliminated as a main challenger (and before Fitzsimmons). If so, it would certainly add to what i was saying about the colour line.

McVey, Langford and Jeanette. These three only really became legitimate challengers when Johnson was champion. It is worth noting that all three had their chance against Johnson and lost. To be fair though, so did Jim Flynn and he was given a chance. Realistically, the only time these guys would have been given a chance if they were white, was some time after the Jeffries fight. Dont forget that Johnson fought only 4 times after this. The first was against Flynn in 1912. With Langford and McVey off in Australia Jeanette is the only one with a shot here. Actually it is quite intersting that there does not seem to have been much of an outcry for a Jeanette Johnson fight at this time. Even though in hindsight, Jeanette would have been the logical choice. If Jeanette were white, then he probably would have been at the fore front, but that assumes that he got the publicity push. Flynn got that push for whatever reason. Johnson seemed to pick Flynn because of High risk low reward. I am not so sure that the higher risk White Jeanette would be guaranteed a shot. Certainly Luther McCarthy hadnt yet been given his shot and he had a pretty arguable case. I think Johnson would have stuck with the low risk Flynn. Then next defence was in 1913 against Jim Johnson. This was in France, where the Johnson actually defended against Jim Johnson, a coloured fighter, with the marketing angle being the first all black title shot. McVey and Langford were both in the frame here but Johnson was chosen. Presumably because of risk vs reward, although it is worth noting that Johnson was not as far away from McVey and Langford in quality as many make out, and he was the only one Johnson had not already beaten. I really dont see how skin colour would have got either of these three a title shot here. Johnson would have stuck with the risk vs reward scenario of Jim Johnson.


At about this time, Langford had just beaten mcVey in their series, Lost to Gunboat smith and Beaten Jeannette. Moran was chosen Wouldnt that logically suggest that Gunboat Smith would have been the no 1 white contender? Neither of the three would have had any more right to fight than Gunboat did, yet Moran was chosen over these guys. For this shot, one might consider that White Harry Wills could have snuck in a title chance here. He did earn a fight with Langford about now, which he lost by KO and he also lost to McVey. White McVey probably had his best chance to get a shot right here. Although it is worth noting that neither was in france, so it would have been a bit of a lottery as to which one got the title shot. I think Johnson (and even the promoters) were more willing to bet on the younger fighters to take to Johnson because there was a perception that he cleared out and dominated the previous generation. Therefore Wills was the best bet but only before his losses took place.

The last defence was against Willard in Cuba. It was Willards size more than anything that got him the shot, I would have thought. Nothing changes that. McVey Jeannette, Langford, Wills all could have easily got Willlards spot, but I am not so sure they would have been guaranteed it. either way, if all three were four were white, it is pretty unlikely that all four get a shot at a title, the way things panned out.

This moves us on to Wills against Willard. Willard really wanted to fight noone. It is possible that a White wills Replaces Moran. Although, it really does seem like Moran was a bit of a random choice, as he was no more of a standout challenger than anyone else, and you would actually think that Fulton was lined up for the logical Willard challenger (regardless of colour). It was this win by Dempsey which earned him his shot, and i dont think anyone can claim that colour robbed them of a shot at Jess. We all know for whatever reason Dempsey should have fought Wills. Although, is it worth noting that many or even most who claim a ducking also claim that Dempsey should have defended against Greb. If this is the case, would it have mattered what colour Wills skin was? He was the biggest draw outside Dempsey, as it was. Personally i think it was politics that cost wills his shot and i would agree that he would have got a shot, but that isnt really the majority view here. If you think Dempsey intentionally ducked Wills, i dont see how you can think it was because of skin colour.

Lastly We have Godfrey. Godfrey seems to have been a phenom who wrecked his career by wearing the cuffs. The assumption is that he wouldnt have worn cuffs if he was white. There is no guarantee of this. If he wore the cuffs, he did so because he wanted the money. Some say dempsey did the same thing once. I think he has the weakest case of all.

[dajuggernaut]

I think I would only consider the cases of Tunney, Langford, and Charles for greatest LHW ever.

And Roy. :)

[Boilermaker]

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLib ... bm105n.pdf

This article covers a lot of things. It isnt the be all and end all, but it is interesting that Langford, who is considered the best light heavy in the world, by the writer seems to be also considered the best heavy outside Johnson. No mention is made of Jeanette or McVey. Also interesting that he sees McCarthy (not as good as Langford) but a better potentialled fighter than Willard, despite Willard getting the better of him.

[Goodnight, Irene]

"Potentialled?"

[BoxBuzz]

GI....our language evolves by brave souls in instances such as this.

Dwight D. Eisenhower, was the first to utilize the word "Prioritize" and no one blogged out a critical word at that moment in history. You'll notice many of us use that word today.

If you priortized your time correctly, you would have little time for calling out and being critical of what may turn out to be an ingenious use of this new expression..... "potentialed". Or should we indeed use the "ll" as we go about the business of being "inventious"?

This moment may well be chock full of promise, and "highly potentialled" depending on where we go from here.

Don't be a lemming. Be confident, blaze your own trail!