Hagler vs Leonard : How did you score the fight ?

[Quixall]

I had it by a point to Leonard.

BTW, anyone who can't see that's a razoredge fight that can be scored either way needs to change their meds.

That's true, it was a fight that was difficult to score.

[nobby_nobbins]

I said earlier in a post that the crowd can have a big impact on these occasions. The simple fact was that everytime Hagler went to work, the crowd were silent, but as soon as Leonard did an Ali shuffle, a bowlo punch or put together a flashy combination the crowd went wild. It proves it in a way because one judge had it 118-110 for Leonard, which was ridiculous.

Yes, spot on Quixall

[big lennox]

I thought Leonard by a couple of rounds.That said, the ring was absolutely massive. I think a smaller ring and a prime Hagler and it would have been a different story.

[fatcity69]

I think noone can dissagree that it was a close fight buT IMO Leonard dictated things more than hagler. He simply out manuvoured Hagler mentally, out boxed him early and then sneaked the last rounds to wrap up the show. Hagler only had himself to blame regarding agreeing to the large ring and the type of gloves. I think at that point he knew he was on the wane and wanted the big payday as much as Leonard did. Ive always thought that one of the reasons Hagler didnot fight again is that he knew he was past it otherwise I cannot see why he would not have come back if only to force Leonard into a remach, but I dont think he was confident of beating Leonard even in a rematch.

[Dan Dares]

115-113 for Hagler, maybe 116-112 depending on how you view one of the final rounds. In my mind the score of 118-110 proves beyond doubt that the judge in question, and many fans, scored the occasion rather than the fight. I won’ argue too stringently either way, but Hagler was the deserved winner for my money. Every time they show that clip of Ray loading up and hitting Hagler just below the beltline or on the gloves or grazing the forehead followed by ‘Just look at those punches’ a little piece of me dies. Ray was given credit for things he didn’t even do that night. It was a very good performance from Ray, with the emphasis on performance.

I'm with McGuigan on this one, he created an illusion of victory and sold it to the audience and judges.

As for the size of the event, they stocked Hagler-Leonard cups at McDonalds.

Yep - that's how I had it.

I seem to remember Hagler v Leonard shrinky dinks in boxes of shreddies too.

[tommo100]

i recently watched it again and scored it a draw,leonard slowing down after the fifth allowed hagler to get right back in it and as other s have stated the ring was bleedin massive!!
sugar ray did indeed catch hagler at the right time,i think he shipped a hell of lot of punishment against mugabe,he looked tired boxing wise,the old hagler would have got to leonard quicker

[Bricks]

A DRAW . Hagler sure as hell didnt deserve to lose just because he looked worse than ever in his title reign, and SRL put together some crowd pleasing flurries that didnt land anything...should have been a rematch.

[Giancarlo]

When I was a kid I got caught up in the support for Sugar Ray's comeback and on whether could he do the impossible. When watching the fight at that time I just watched what Ray was doing and not Hagler. Amazed by the skill Ray still possessed I gave the fight to Leonard easily. As the years have gone by and I understood more about what I was watching I studied the fight again and saw a completely different fight. Yeah Ray fought a fight nobody at the time thought possible of him and this took something away from Hagler's performance. Hagler was supposed to steamroller him but with rewatching I observed Hagler landing the more hurtful single punches while Ray would flurry catching the eye. More flash than anything. A few times towards the end of the bout Ray pulled similar faces to those he would later pull when Terry Norris was putting a beatdown on him. Hagler was hurting him. The fight was close, Ray fought a great fight. Hagler did not fight to his best. I have now scored this fight a few times and always give it to Hagler by 2 rounds.

I agree 100 percent. Ray Leonard's performance was smoke and mirrors - a brilliant performance aimed at getting the crowd worked up and catching the eye of the judges. The more meaningful shots were landed by Hagler who just got on with his work in a plodding, workmanlike way. Watch it with the sound off and you can see Ray is just conning his way through while taking a beating - particularly in the second half. Hagler put in a solid blue collar effort while Ray wooed the casino crowd with the razzmatazz they wanted.

Hilarious.

[fightscorecollector]

i have watched this fight about 10-12 times and have never scored for hagler

my scores are 115-113 leonard or 115-114 leonard

[nobby_nobbins]

Hilarious.

Yes, I thought Ray's clowning to pretend he wasn't hurt was pretty funny too. Give the guy an Oscar.

[stujones]

I've watched this fight many many times and its Leonard for me. By two or by three rounds. I do maintain that Hagler lost that fight, rather than Ray winning it - whether it was the strong rumours of Leonard looking piss poor in training, or that Hagler was looking apparantly look fantastic in training, knocking out sparring partners for fun - but Hagler was over trained and, more critically, over confident in the fight.

It wasn't the Hagler of old, the Hagler of old would have been gutted with that performance. Even if he did think he had done enough, he didn't come really close to achieving what he promised for the fans and to KO his nemisis. Not dancing and jiving away as he waited for the decision.

Yes, the 118-110 is rediculous, as is, in my opinion, a 116-112 in favour of Hagler. I think there is a pretty strong consensus that Leonard swept the first four rounds - so to give Leonard none or maybe one of the rounds after is harsh.

The corners of the two camps said it all at the end of the 10th. Dundee was jumping around proclaiming all leonard needs to do is survive and he's the champ, Pettronelli on the other hand was saying "two rounds do go, and we need them bad".

Yes, the ring size played a part.... Yes the number of rounds played a part. Although I think Leonard would have survived another 3 rounds okay. He might not have got a decision in a 15 round fight, but I've heard rediculous claims that he would have got stopped. Hagler's own snap was gone from his punches after the amazing 9th round. I think Leonard would have had enough about him to "con" his way to winning or at least drawing one of those last 3 hypothetical rounds - to win the decision with the judges.

[tommo100]

marvelous was reaching the end of his career,his last two fights before leonard were wars (hearns and mugabe) and before these he`d had tear ups with roldan and duran,there was a lot of mileage on him and it showed

[Giancarlo]

Hilarious.

Yes, I thought Ray's clowning to pretend he wasn't hurt was pretty funny too. Give the guy an Oscar.

Nobby, Hagler was the one with the shaven head.

[nobby_nobbins]

Hilarious.

Yes, I thought Ray's clowning to pretend he wasn't hurt was pretty funny too. Give the guy an Oscar.

Nobby, Hagler was the one with the shaven head.

So it was Hagler doing all the clowning and showboating was it? It was a close fight but the wrong man got the decision. It was a triumph of style over substance.

[Giancarlo]

Yes, I thought Ray's clowning to pretend he wasn't hurt was pretty funny too. Give the guy an Oscar.

Nobby, Hagler was the one with the shaven head.

..It was a close fight...

You're getting closer to reality now, Nobby.

[nobby_nobbins]

Nobby, Hagler was the one with the shaven head.

..It was a close fight...

You're getting closer to reality now, Nobby.

I think you may be confusing your personal impressions with reality Giancarlo, but thanks anyway.

[lurkyshaka]

I think it was a draw on rounds won, but Leonard mastered Hagler mentally that night and won the tactical battle. He got into Hagler's head and Marvin came out trying to prove he could outbox Leonard. Some clear rounds, some debatable. But if either deserved to take the win it was Leonard.

Anyone who thinks Hagler was robbed is kidding themselves. It was a very close fight where Hagler fought foolishly at times and handed initiative to Leonard. The one official scorecard that had it easy for Leonard was ridiculous though.

[Boxingnut]

I watched it live on closed circuit and many times since and I have always scored it for Leonard, 115-114. I have no argument though with anyone who had Hagler a couple up.

Is the story true, that Harry Gibbs was going to be one of the judges, only to be declined by the Petronelli's because he was British and he watched the fight on TV and scored it for Hagler?

[nobby_nobbins]

I watched it live on closed circuit and many times since and I have always scored it for Leonard, 115-114. I have no argument though with anyone who had Hagler a couple up.

Is the story true, that Harry Gibbs was going to be one of the judges, only to be declined by the Petronelli's because he was British and he watched the fight on TV and scored it for Hagler?

Interesting. I suppose the Petronellis weren't too happy with Britain after the Minter business?

[Coco]

I found this on Hagler's Wikipedia page

ction

Official ringside judge JoJo Guerra, whose 118-110 scorecard was derided in many quarters, commented that:
“ Leonard outpunched Hagler, outsmarted him, outboxed him. He looked just great. Sugar Ray Leonard was making him miss a lot, and then counterpunching him. Sugar Ray Leonard was beating him to the punch. They should call him Marvellous Sugar Ray Leonard. Boxing is the art of self-defense, and Sugar Ray was in command at all times. He was very fast and he was very clever. He made Marvin Hagler come to him. He dictated the fight.[15][16] ”


Judge Dave Moretti, who scored it 115-113 for Leonard:
“ Obviously, Hagler was the aggressor, but he was not the effective aggressor. You can't chase and get hit and chase and get hit, and get credit for it. Besides, the hardest punching was by Leonard.[17] ”


Lou Filippo, who scored it 115-113 for Hagler and felt that Hagler's bodyshots and aggression earned him the nod, said:
“ Hagler was doing all the work. The referee, Richard Steele, warned Leonard at least once every round about holding. Leonard fought in spurts. Leonard would run in and grab and hold. He did what he had to do. But I can't see a guy holding that much and getting points for it.[18]



Interesting reading

[Boxingnut]

I watched it live on closed circuit and many times since and I have always scored it for Leonard, 115-114. I have no argument though with anyone who had Hagler a couple up.

Is the story true, that Harry Gibbs was going to be one of the judges, only to be declined by the Petronelli's because he was British and he watched the fight on TV and scored it for Hagler?

Interesting. I suppose the Petronellis weren't too happy with Britain after the Minter business?

I'm sure I read it in either Four Kings or Sorcery at Caesar's. And yes I think it hinted it was because of the Minter fight.

[keithmoonhangover]

Honestly..... How many of you are taking into consideration Leonard's ability to make Hagler miss?

[Syntax Error]

Hagler by 2 rounds. One judge had it by miles for Leonard. I could never understand that.

That's right; 118 - 110, just a truly laughable score.

I had Leonard winning by 2 (115 -113), but it was close.

I thought Hagler virtually gave away the first 4 rounds with his arrogance, cursing & bitching, rather than concentrating on putting some hurt on Leonard.

By the time he realised that he needed to stop calling Leonard names & doing some fighting, Leonard was in his groove.

He did even things up a one point & even wobbled Leonard, but his speed had all but evaporated by 1987 & Leonard always seemed to manage to rally back & 'steal' rounds.

PS: I can't believe it was 25 years ago!

[Syntax Error]

When I was a kid I got caught up in the support for Sugar Ray's comeback and on whether could he do the impossible. When watching the fight at that time I just watched what Ray was doing and not Hagler. Amazed by the skill Ray still possessed I gave the fight to Leonard easily. As the years have gone by and I understood more about what I was watching I studied the fight again and saw a completely different fight. Yeah Ray fought a fight nobody at the time thought possible of him and this took something away from Hagler's performance. Hagler was supposed to steamroller him but with rewatching I observed Hagler landing the more hurtful single punches while Ray would flurry catching the eye. More flash than anything. A few times towards the end of the bout Ray pulled similar faces to those he would later pull when Terry Norris was putting a beatdown on him. Hagler was hurting him. The fight was close, Ray fought a great fight. Hagler did not fight to his best. I have now scored this fight a few times and always give it to Hagler by 2 rounds.

That's what i did Ketch.......

It's a good point mate, because there is sometimes a tendancy to watch a fight from the underdogs point of view. There is no doubt in my mind that Hagler would have stopped Leonard if it had been a 15 round fight.

How can you be so sure?

One thing SRL always had was amazing stamina.

Just when you thought he was wilting, he would come on strong.

Hagler was also blessed with great stamina, but by 1987, he looked so woefully slow & tired that I dread to think what he would have been like in rounds 13, 14 & 15.

[Syntax Error]

I think noone can dissagree that it was a close fight buT IMO Leonard dictated things more than hagler. He simply out manuvoured Hagler mentally, out boxed him early and then sneaked the last rounds to wrap up the show. Hagler only had himself to blame regarding agreeing to the large ring and the type of gloves. I think at that point he knew he was on the wane and wanted the big payday as much as Leonard did. Ive always thought that one of the reasons Hagler didnot fight again is that he knew he was past it otherwise I cannot see why he would not have come back if only to force Leonard into a remach, but I dont think he was confident of beating Leonard even in a rematch.

I agree with much of this.

Leonard did a psyche job on Hagler & Marvin knows it.

Marvin seemd more concerned with the payday than anything else.

Saying that, Marvin more than paid his dues in boxing & deserved a big payday to bow out with, to be fair to him.