i couldnt help myself James J Braddock VS Vitali Klitscho
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Rory McCloskey
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i couldnt help myself James J Braddock VS Vitali Klitscho
u all know who im taking... braddock is too strong and to durable for vitali. and vitali cleary couldnt go 10-12 rounds with someone like braddock, who would take his fair shareofshots in order to line his up. braddock by KO in the mid to late rounds.
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Rory McCloskey
- Heavyweight
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a second round KO?.. so braddock goes up against boxers such as tommy loughran art lasky john henry lewis, and max baer, and goes the distance, but the all powerful hardest ever hitting vitali klitscho comes and ko's him in 2 rounds? keep dreaming, if vitali came into this fight thinking that would be the outcome, he would get his ass wooped on for 12 rounds.
Sorry Rory, and seriously, no offense intended man, but you're the one making the silly arguments here. When you bring John Henry Lewis into the equation, I have a hard time figuring what you're getting at. Of course JH Lewis was a great fighter, BUT at Light Heavyweight not HW ! Do you honestly believe JH Lewis could take more than one shot on the chin from Lennox Lewis before he woke up with his memory permanently erased ? And since Braddock defeated JH Lewis by decision when the latter weighed 176, you think that presents an argument in favor of the less than 200 lb Braddock being able to defeat the rock solid, never on the canvas 6-7 250 Klitschko.
Don't you think it would pretty ridiculous if I asked who would win in a 15 round bout between a 147 lb peak Tommy Hearns and a peak 175lb Michael Spinks ? I think you would because it's a no brainer, and that would also probably describe Hearns condition after the fight. Braddock simply would be unable to hurt Vitali, and as soon as he tried to get inside he'd be annihilated. If they fought 10 times I'd pick Klitschko by early KO every time.
If you're a big admirer of Braddock, I think that's great. But there's no dishonor whatsoever to the man's memory in saying he wouldn't stand a chance against a guy who dwarfs anyone he ever fought.
Don't you think it would pretty ridiculous if I asked who would win in a 15 round bout between a 147 lb peak Tommy Hearns and a peak 175lb Michael Spinks ? I think you would because it's a no brainer, and that would also probably describe Hearns condition after the fight. Braddock simply would be unable to hurt Vitali, and as soon as he tried to get inside he'd be annihilated. If they fought 10 times I'd pick Klitschko by early KO every time.
If you're a big admirer of Braddock, I think that's great. But there's no dishonor whatsoever to the man's memory in saying he wouldn't stand a chance against a guy who dwarfs anyone he ever fought.
re
Braddock would have a chance...actually a very good chance! Klitschko has done nothing that is overly impressive, or really even marginally impressive...Braddock faced a lot better competition than has VK and with it is the experience to deal with anything VK could offer...forget the height and size, it means very little and might work against the Danny Williams' and Corrie Sanders of the world, but Braddock is a better fighter and the fact that small Chris Byrd took all that VK could dish out, well that showed that power and size is more myth than reality!
Barry
I don't believe that Chris Byrd's performance has any relevance to the argument, for the reason that Max Baer at 209 was the heaviest man Braddock ever fought. Chris Byrd has about a dozen wins over fighters weighing 230 and up. Besides, Braddock never weighed 200 for a fight, while Byrd goes around 215 when he's in shape. Is a big weight advantage that significant in a fight ? It sure is when the other guy comes in 30 or more lbs heavier and he's got a washboard stomach instead of fat hanging over his sides . Besides Chris Byrd was on his way to a guaranteed decision loss when Vitali quit,and boring or not Chris Byrd knows how to survive. With Braddock's brittle right hand, I think this one would be over very quickly.
I don't believe that Chris Byrd's performance has any relevance to the argument, for the reason that Max Baer at 209 was the heaviest man Braddock ever fought. Chris Byrd has about a dozen wins over fighters weighing 230 and up. Besides, Braddock never weighed 200 for a fight, while Byrd goes around 215 when he's in shape. Is a big weight advantage that significant in a fight ? It sure is when the other guy comes in 30 or more lbs heavier and he's got a washboard stomach instead of fat hanging over his sides . Besides Chris Byrd was on his way to a guaranteed decision loss when Vitali quit,and boring or not Chris Byrd knows how to survive. With Braddock's brittle right hand, I think this one would be over very quickly.
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Rory McCloskey
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seamus.. okay you almost made a good arguement about vitali's size.. so because hes big, noone can beat him is that it?..not even a hall of famer like braddock?.. hearns beating spinks?.... okay how about baer beating carnera.. vitali didnt posses more strength then max baer, and max baer would tear up vitali and eat his brain. john henry lewis was a light heavyweight boxer, but he was also a very capable heavyweight boxer, who experience some success at heavyweight, he was a contender..i beleive your agruement is a joke... do u think vitali is serious 6-7 250 rock solid in awesome shape and unbeleivable stamina.. okay... ill take it your a vitali fan which is funny but okay... whatever.. braddock wasnt knocked out by hall of famers, and wasnt even knocked down by a slugger like max baer, who beat up on someone bigger then vitali...and braddock won a pretty large decision... so the fact that your coming in here and telling me that vitali would ko braddock in 2 rounds? 2 rounds are u kidding me, braddock had unbeleivable heart, and no way this big lumbering russian is gonna ko him in 2 rounds, even braddock was crafty enough to last 2 rounds without throwing a punch, certainly when hes facing vitali klitscho... braddock lasted 8 rounds against a prime and at the time unbeatable joe louis... now u get me to beleive that vitali klitscho has more power then the both of them and i will never post on this sight again and you have my word... u find one person in this forum with any sense at all that could see vitali knocking him out in 2 rounds, and i will leave this forum. theyre not idiots on this sight, except maybe you no offense but this is a fools arguement..... 2 rounds.... braddock woulda lasted 2 rounds with ali
re
...I don't believe that Chris Byrd's performance has any relevance to the argument<<<
But it does have revelance as it showed that just because Vitali is huge...it doesn't mean that he can steam roll over opponents and someone such as Braddock, who fought every kind of fighter in the book, experience plays a lot bigger role than size any day unless the size is just extremely talented, which Vitali isn't. There are several examples throughout history where a huge fighter, in better shape than Vitali lost to the smaller heavyweight...besides Vitali stamina is pretty crappy and being that he doesn't have the once punch crippling KO power a fighter like Braddock would take him into the later rounds during which he stood a very good chance to stop a very, very tired VK>
But it does have revelance as it showed that just because Vitali is huge...it doesn't mean that he can steam roll over opponents and someone such as Braddock, who fought every kind of fighter in the book, experience plays a lot bigger role than size any day unless the size is just extremely talented, which Vitali isn't. There are several examples throughout history where a huge fighter, in better shape than Vitali lost to the smaller heavyweight...besides Vitali stamina is pretty crappy and being that he doesn't have the once punch crippling KO power a fighter like Braddock would take him into the later rounds during which he stood a very good chance to stop a very, very tired VK>
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Rory McCloskey
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Re: i couldnt help myself James J Braddock VS Vitali Klitsch
Now I'm not saying Braddock wouldn't win, but I don't think he's too strong for Vitali , I think Vitali is reasonably stronger then Braddock.Rory McCloskey wrote:u all know who im taking... braddock is too strong and to durable for vitali. and vitali cleary couldnt go 10-12 rounds with someone like braddock, who would take his fair shareofshots in order to line his up. braddock by KO in the mid to late rounds.
But they are both pretty tough and it would be hard for Braddock to get inside.
Braddock would have to work the body as best as he could.
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Collins2000
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), so what's your take?-
Rory McCloskey
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his father james was born in motram.. which yes is in manchester england, his family emigrated there in seek of work... his mother was born in ireland. they immigrated in about 1888? i beleive.. they lived in manhatten when they first got married and they moved to hells kitchen. jim braddock was born in hells kitchen which of course u know if notoriously irish. he weighed 17 pounds haha.. some books ive read said its the truth n others say its dubious.. oh well i know none of you probly care at all but its great to share some info. anyone else got some questions?
Ok everybody gather round I dont' want to have to repeat myself, cuz here is where I look you in the eye and and you straighten up and I tell you what's what. And you you say "yes sir" or perhaps "WTF?"
Braddock was a symbol representing that the average Joe could get the job done at a time when the nation needed to hear that very story. Here was a guy who had all the charachter of a Saint and all the bad luck of an outcast and the Faith of the Holy Father.
His story was way bigger than James J Braddock the man and like Seabiscuit he was the embodiment of hope for an entire nation.
On a tech level The Baer-Braddock fight probably went a lot like a Prime Liston-Ali fight would have gone if sanity reigned supreme in the 60's. Boxer who was just to slick for the heavy hitter.
I have never thought Baer was that great so how can I think Braddock was that great? Braddock was a hell of a technician with great whiskers and mentally pure titanium. and Baer? Well he could hit like.. well....a Bear. But for all of Baers power I just don't give him top billing among Heavies. Braddock studied and willed his way to the championship and would have beat Baer in a rematch. He was the first fighter I'm aware of to actually study his opponent and develop a plan to win and then worked his plan with great success. In Braddocks first real defense he put up a brave effort against one of, if not the best of all time and gracefully surrendered the title to one of Boxings elite who after the fact always held Braddock in great esteem. I think Joe said of Braddock he was the bravest fighter he ever faced.
I for one think this sport is improving, So I think Vitali would be too big and too strong for the Inspirational if limited Heavyweight in James J Braddock. I do think when you list the Light Heavy's you should consider James in the Foster, Spinks, Moore league. Top Five Light Heavy of all time, and maybe the best. Moore-Braddock lights up my imagination!
But just like the Theoretical McCline Kirkman thread that floated around here recently I think The New generation much bigger and more powerful super heavyweight would perservere. Would he knock the Cagey Lt Heavy out? I'm inclined to think the one thing Braddock could do is get out of the way of the less than lumbering Giant. So no KO but I don't see how he outpoints Vitali.
Did someone allude to or mention Carnera in this thread?.....Please.....Carnera was a sideshow purchased and paid for and probably only had one good genuine lucky punch in his life....when he put out Sharkey. I for one believe Sharkeys contention that Carnera really did put him out. But it was totaly equivalent to a lottery win. He could never do it twice in a lifetime.
Now you know what's what.
Braddock was a symbol representing that the average Joe could get the job done at a time when the nation needed to hear that very story. Here was a guy who had all the charachter of a Saint and all the bad luck of an outcast and the Faith of the Holy Father.
His story was way bigger than James J Braddock the man and like Seabiscuit he was the embodiment of hope for an entire nation.
On a tech level The Baer-Braddock fight probably went a lot like a Prime Liston-Ali fight would have gone if sanity reigned supreme in the 60's. Boxer who was just to slick for the heavy hitter.
I have never thought Baer was that great so how can I think Braddock was that great? Braddock was a hell of a technician with great whiskers and mentally pure titanium. and Baer? Well he could hit like.. well....a Bear. But for all of Baers power I just don't give him top billing among Heavies. Braddock studied and willed his way to the championship and would have beat Baer in a rematch. He was the first fighter I'm aware of to actually study his opponent and develop a plan to win and then worked his plan with great success. In Braddocks first real defense he put up a brave effort against one of, if not the best of all time and gracefully surrendered the title to one of Boxings elite who after the fact always held Braddock in great esteem. I think Joe said of Braddock he was the bravest fighter he ever faced.
I for one think this sport is improving, So I think Vitali would be too big and too strong for the Inspirational if limited Heavyweight in James J Braddock. I do think when you list the Light Heavy's you should consider James in the Foster, Spinks, Moore league. Top Five Light Heavy of all time, and maybe the best. Moore-Braddock lights up my imagination!
But just like the Theoretical McCline Kirkman thread that floated around here recently I think The New generation much bigger and more powerful super heavyweight would perservere. Would he knock the Cagey Lt Heavy out? I'm inclined to think the one thing Braddock could do is get out of the way of the less than lumbering Giant. So no KO but I don't see how he outpoints Vitali.
Did someone allude to or mention Carnera in this thread?.....Please.....Carnera was a sideshow purchased and paid for and probably only had one good genuine lucky punch in his life....when he put out Sharkey. I for one believe Sharkeys contention that Carnera really did put him out. But it was totaly equivalent to a lottery win. He could never do it twice in a lifetime.
Now you know what's what.
Rory
Relax, I certainly wouldn't want you to leave the forum. Aren't we all here for friendly discussion ?
I have no animosity whatsoever toward the fighter you so much admire, but I truly believe that if Braddock were around today he'd have 3 choices. 1. Bulk up considerably 2. Fight as a Cruiserweight (now there's where you should be asking how he'd fare against Mormeck) 3. Fight in the HW's at 199 and have a very short career.
Before you respond and tell me how ridiculous my claims are that Vitali (who's a Ukrainian and NOT Russian) would destroy Braddock, do me a favor. Look up BoxRec's current top 50 Heavyweights and look at what every fighter weighed in his last bout. It is no coincedence that 50 out of 50 weighed considerably more than Braddock. As for Max Baer tearing up Klitschko, I very seriously doubt Baer could hit as hard as Lennox Lewis, and we know Vitali remained stationary after getting hit with several of his best shots. And for the record, I like Vitali but wouldn't consider myself a big fan of his.
Relax, I certainly wouldn't want you to leave the forum. Aren't we all here for friendly discussion ?
I have no animosity whatsoever toward the fighter you so much admire, but I truly believe that if Braddock were around today he'd have 3 choices. 1. Bulk up considerably 2. Fight as a Cruiserweight (now there's where you should be asking how he'd fare against Mormeck) 3. Fight in the HW's at 199 and have a very short career.
Before you respond and tell me how ridiculous my claims are that Vitali (who's a Ukrainian and NOT Russian) would destroy Braddock, do me a favor. Look up BoxRec's current top 50 Heavyweights and look at what every fighter weighed in his last bout. It is no coincedence that 50 out of 50 weighed considerably more than Braddock. As for Max Baer tearing up Klitschko, I very seriously doubt Baer could hit as hard as Lennox Lewis, and we know Vitali remained stationary after getting hit with several of his best shots. And for the record, I like Vitali but wouldn't consider myself a big fan of his.
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
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when ur the size of james braddock, to defeat the big modern heavyweights of the nineties u either need strength and KO power, or u need blazing hand and foot speed and boxing skills like roy jones. marciano and dempsey could handle vitali cause they had the strength and power, while roy jones could handle the bigger guys cause he had the speed and boxing skills.
as for braddock, he has a great chin and a lot of heart and tougnness. and he does have strength, however he doesnt have the KO power not the speed ot box circles around vitali. and this fight will defintely go the distance, cuase braddock had a great chin only being knocked out once. vitali doesnt have the power of wladimir so its safe to say he probably wouldnt ko him. braddock would have to outwork vitali and outbox him which would be tought to do considering the size disadvantage and braddock might not have enough tools to deal with the size advantgae. i hwoever dont think highly of vitali so i will say braddock does have a veyr good chance and this will probably be a close deciision. braddock wil have to get in the damaging blows and be able to box with vitali.
im not sure who would win, but i think it would go the distance. braddock will have to deifntel outwork vitali and put pressure on him and make him tire.
as for braddock, he has a great chin and a lot of heart and tougnness. and he does have strength, however he doesnt have the KO power not the speed ot box circles around vitali. and this fight will defintely go the distance, cuase braddock had a great chin only being knocked out once. vitali doesnt have the power of wladimir so its safe to say he probably wouldnt ko him. braddock would have to outwork vitali and outbox him which would be tought to do considering the size disadvantage and braddock might not have enough tools to deal with the size advantgae. i hwoever dont think highly of vitali so i will say braddock does have a veyr good chance and this will probably be a close deciision. braddock wil have to get in the damaging blows and be able to box with vitali.
im not sure who would win, but i think it would go the distance. braddock will have to deifntel outwork vitali and put pressure on him and make him tire.
Braddock??? Why the sudden interest in this guy? He was clumsy, slow, not terribly bright in the ring or out, wasnt a very good boxer or puncher. What makes anyone think he would stand a chance against Klitchko? Im not saying Klit is anything special but lord. Braddock is one step up from a bum and the only reason hes one step up from a bum is because he had one shining moment where he won the HW championship from a guy who didnt give a shit about it.
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
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klompton wrote 
i dont want u jumping off a building cause of this comment.
rory take a deep breath ........... and let it out slowly.Braddock??? Why the sudden interest in this guy? He was clumsy, slow, not terribly bright in the ring or out, wasnt a very good boxer or puncher. What makes anyone think he would stand a chance against Klitchko? Im not saying Klit is anything special but lord. Braddock is one step up from a bum and the only reason hes one step up from a bum is because he had one shining moment where he won the HW championship from a guy who didnt give a shit about it.
i dont want u jumping off a building cause of this comment.
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
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hey first of all its rockky marcianos birthday.
they did a tribute to rocky on espn classic and had tedy atlas and dan rafeal discuss rocky and ocpare him to other greats. teddy atlas gave rocky the fair shake.
dan rafeal siad VITALI KLITSCHKO WOULD KO ROCKY FAST AND EASY. VITALIS 6'4 250 LB ALL MUSCLE. HES WAY TOO BIG FOR ROCKY
teddy is just laughing quitely to himself on what an idiot dan rafeal is.
fat 300 lb guy who doesnt know shit about boxing history.
teddys smart and made good arguements and knows what hes talking about.
dan rafeal biggest idiot i have ever met.
they did a tribute to rocky on espn classic and had tedy atlas and dan rafeal discuss rocky and ocpare him to other greats. teddy atlas gave rocky the fair shake.
dan rafeal siad VITALI KLITSCHKO WOULD KO ROCKY FAST AND EASY. VITALIS 6'4 250 LB ALL MUSCLE. HES WAY TOO BIG FOR ROCKY
teddy is just laughing quitely to himself on what an idiot dan rafeal is.
fat 300 lb guy who doesnt know shit about boxing history.
teddys smart and made good arguements and knows what hes talking about.
dan rafeal biggest idiot i have ever met.
re
>>>Braddock??? Why the sudden interest in this guy?<<<
Hmmm...I'm just guessing, but maybe it's because there was just a major hollywood motion picture and three, or four new biographies about the man!
Braddock one step up from a bum...well you obviously know very little about Braddock, except I guess you watched Ron Howard's movie of him...Braddock was a very, very good light heavyweight, he did lose most of the important heavyweight bouts that he had, but then again Vitali has lost both important bouts that he has had as well...one of which he flat out quit in, but then again you think anyone who's last name isn't Greb is bordering on bum, unless they were opponents of Greb! It's funny, you run to defend guys like Gus Christie, Willie Brennan and Soldier Bartfield and talk about how tough they were and about how they were some of the top middleweights of the time...God forbid someone claim they were a step above a bum, but...oh yeah...I forgot, they were opponents of Greb, so they must have undoubtably been better than others of their level...especially Bartfield...after all, he gave Greb some of his toughest battles!
Hmmm...I'm just guessing, but maybe it's because there was just a major hollywood motion picture and three, or four new biographies about the man!
Braddock one step up from a bum...well you obviously know very little about Braddock, except I guess you watched Ron Howard's movie of him...Braddock was a very, very good light heavyweight, he did lose most of the important heavyweight bouts that he had, but then again Vitali has lost both important bouts that he has had as well...one of which he flat out quit in, but then again you think anyone who's last name isn't Greb is bordering on bum, unless they were opponents of Greb! It's funny, you run to defend guys like Gus Christie, Willie Brennan and Soldier Bartfield and talk about how tough they were and about how they were some of the top middleweights of the time...God forbid someone claim they were a step above a bum, but...oh yeah...I forgot, they were opponents of Greb, so they must have undoubtably been better than others of their level...especially Bartfield...after all, he gave Greb some of his toughest battles!
Last edited by barry on 01 Sep 2005, 09:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Rory McCloskey
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Rory McCloskey
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Rory McCloskey
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if we are makign the arguement that vitali can beat braddock...please noone say he would beat marciano..i dont care how god damn big the guy is it wouldnt happen... n he was roughly the same weight as braddock...anyway....
braddock was indeed a top light heavyweight of his time,so i could match him up with some light heavys of today, but he is renown for his heavyweight boxing career...some guys see the movie and they think he was a one fight guy...he most certainly was not.....he fought top prospects in both weight classes, and won more then he lost... he faced guys like max baer jh lewis art lasky tommy loughran jim slattery lou scouzza and joe louis... hey look at that 4 of them are hall of famers... and he won 2 of em..thats not bad..how many hall of famers has vitali beaten?...
well as for the size matter.. i dont think it means that much... braddock as a light heavyweight often fought guys that were over 20 pounds heavier then him, and he usually won.. he added about 15 pounds for the baer fight which put him roughly at 200, he gained even more for the louis fight i beleive, but it was all rock solid muscle.. so lets say braddock comes in at 220..because if the fight was now-a-day's it would be much much easier to gain weight and muscle. 220 vs 250 is not an unbeleivable uncermountable difference.
braddock was certainly no bum, and as the wize boxbuzz stated, braddock learned abotu baer and discovered how to beat him..so who says he couldnt do that to vitali, who in my mind is 10X closer to being a "bum"...who the hell has vitali beaten... hes had 2 respectable opponents in his life... lennox lewis and chris byrd, and he blew it in both..ill say it again, with todays programs, weight lifting programs, dieting, vitamina etc. it would be much easier to gain weight and put on muscle...dont forget braddock use to chop wood as training...thers a big different in chopping wood and lifting weights...
and i dont wanna hear that braddock couldnt hang with him, or have the same stamina at such a heavy weight for himself.. braddock woulda pushed himself to near death to get in shape for this fight, ask max baer, before the max baer fight, jim braddock had one of the toughest camps ever. it was called homicide hall.
at least there is a general consensus that braddock had to much heart and a strong enough chin to go the distance, but braddock wouldnt be intimidated or anything..look at the big guys in history, most of them fail in the bigger fights against smaller more talented fighters.... ask jess willard and primo carnera(who was a bum, but about viali's size), its hard for these lumbering giants to have alot of footspeed and finess.
as for lennox lewis having more power in a punch, i dont really know, i never cared for lewis, and i was too young to remember his great fights, i know he has power, but all i can tell you was that max baer was a helluva puncher, and could slug it out with the best of em... ill beleive lewis was harder puncher when i see it.
braddock was indeed a top light heavyweight of his time,so i could match him up with some light heavys of today, but he is renown for his heavyweight boxing career...some guys see the movie and they think he was a one fight guy...he most certainly was not.....he fought top prospects in both weight classes, and won more then he lost... he faced guys like max baer jh lewis art lasky tommy loughran jim slattery lou scouzza and joe louis... hey look at that 4 of them are hall of famers... and he won 2 of em..thats not bad..how many hall of famers has vitali beaten?...
well as for the size matter.. i dont think it means that much... braddock as a light heavyweight often fought guys that were over 20 pounds heavier then him, and he usually won.. he added about 15 pounds for the baer fight which put him roughly at 200, he gained even more for the louis fight i beleive, but it was all rock solid muscle.. so lets say braddock comes in at 220..because if the fight was now-a-day's it would be much much easier to gain weight and muscle. 220 vs 250 is not an unbeleivable uncermountable difference.
braddock was certainly no bum, and as the wize boxbuzz stated, braddock learned abotu baer and discovered how to beat him..so who says he couldnt do that to vitali, who in my mind is 10X closer to being a "bum"...who the hell has vitali beaten... hes had 2 respectable opponents in his life... lennox lewis and chris byrd, and he blew it in both..ill say it again, with todays programs, weight lifting programs, dieting, vitamina etc. it would be much easier to gain weight and put on muscle...dont forget braddock use to chop wood as training...thers a big different in chopping wood and lifting weights...
and i dont wanna hear that braddock couldnt hang with him, or have the same stamina at such a heavy weight for himself.. braddock woulda pushed himself to near death to get in shape for this fight, ask max baer, before the max baer fight, jim braddock had one of the toughest camps ever. it was called homicide hall.
at least there is a general consensus that braddock had to much heart and a strong enough chin to go the distance, but braddock wouldnt be intimidated or anything..look at the big guys in history, most of them fail in the bigger fights against smaller more talented fighters.... ask jess willard and primo carnera(who was a bum, but about viali's size), its hard for these lumbering giants to have alot of footspeed and finess.
as for lennox lewis having more power in a punch, i dont really know, i never cared for lewis, and i was too young to remember his great fights, i know he has power, but all i can tell you was that max baer was a helluva puncher, and could slug it out with the best of em... ill beleive lewis was harder puncher when i see it.
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Rory McCloskey
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