Ezzard Charles vs Ray Robinson at 160lbs. What If?

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 31 Aug 2005, 12:33

What do you think would have been the outcome if Ezzard Charles and Sugar Ray Robinson could have met and fought at Middleweight? These two were two of the very finest Boxers who ever laced on the gloves.

I've read that the late great trainer Ray Arcel who worked with Charles say that Charles at his best just may have beaten Robinson.

But what do you guys think?

Who wins? Sugar or Snooks?

P.S. Sorry if this one has been done before.

tiredoldngrey · Post by **tiredoldngrey** » 31 Aug 2005, 13:04

Charles, and mostly because he was much younger- only 20 I think- but still savvy enough to beat Charley Burley. Robinson, model year 1951, was a bit past it but still quite good but I don't think good enough to make him a cinch over Charles; in fact I think that, while it would be highly competitive, Charles would still eke out the win. The Robinson that fought Basilio, Fullmer, and Pender would not have much luck against Charles and it is very likely that Ezzard would stop him.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 31 Aug 2005, 14:27

regulars here know i think ezzard is one of the greatest fighters of all time...pound for pound in the top five.

but..if we are matching middleweight ezzard versus sugar ray at their peaks...i have to go with the sugarman.

an explanation...i think robinson was at his peak against middleweights when he was still welterweight champion.....not after he won the title from lamotta.

so..matching that sugar ray against ezzard when he was a middle makes ronbinson the winner in my opinion. as a middleweight ezz lost to the more experienced cutie forrmer champ ken overlin...he was outboxed and in a rematch got just a draw, and he lost to kid tunero. he outgrew the 160 division and reached his peak as a light heavy.... a small one; he was at his best at 171. ezz was over the middle limit when he beat burley.

now..if we want to pitch sugar ray going after the light heavy title against ezzard (who should have held it) instead of joey maxim, we have ezzard winning by a kayo...because the sugarman would make him open up..and it coujld be 130 degrees or zero .

tiredoldngrey · Post by **tiredoldngrey** » 31 Aug 2005, 14:58

Good point. I'd forgotten about the fights with Overlin.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 01 Sep 2005, 08:43

I think a Charles at 160 would have still beat a Sugar Ray Robinson. Sugar Ray had problems with 2 types of fighters: The ones that apply extreme pressure and slicksters. Charles would have been too slick and would have been stronger in this match. He had super smooth skills. Sugar Ray would probably had more speed than the Cincinnati Cobra, but the Cobra was almost as fast as the Sugar man.

The Cobra by decision.

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 01 Sep 2005, 09:28

Ezzard without a doubt

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 01 Sep 2005, 11:46

have to go with Charles. Much bigger & stronger man who'd become the greatest light heavy of all time & an outstanding heavyweight champ. plus you'd have to say with Ezzard deprived of title shots at 160 and 175, he'd have the extra incentive. ray would not only be going against a master, but also Charles' journey.

(not too dissimilar with Winky vs Mosley & Tito)

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 01 Sep 2005, 13:19

remember this is at middleweight, not light-H and charles was still a little raw and not at his peak when he was a middleweight.

i agree with jaclem, robinson wins at middleweight while if he bumped up to face charles at light-H charles would beat him. i dont think charles would KO him, robinson was never knocked out in his whoel career. i do think charles would outpoint him.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 01 Sep 2005, 14:11

...hey....you're not going to get an argument from me on anything that favors ezzard

.....but....i just don't see him as that great at middleweight....he just didn't stay there long enough...outgrew it ...

...however.....who ami to dispute such great arguments in his favor

jwizard · Post by **jwizard** » 01 Sep 2005, 21:46

If they fought at LHW, Charles might beat him, but I don't think he'd KO him...Sugar had a fantastic chin. I'd still like Sugar's odds in that fight.

At middleweight.....I'd put $500 on Sugar, if that were possible

dws · Post by **dws** » 01 Sep 2005, 23:21

It's hard to say,especially when both were at their absolute best 28 pounds apart.As great as Charles was I'd give the edge to Robinson at 160,if he's the greatest ever doesn't he beat everyone in a fair(same natural weight) fight?I looked over his record and as someone else already said Charles wasn't quite the unbeatable,seasoned monster he was at 175.A great,great matchup on paper but just not the same peak weights,at least for Charles.I'd still love to see it,though!

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 02 Sep 2005, 11:33

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:remember this is at middleweight, not light-H and charles was still a little raw and not at his peak when he was a middleweight.

i agree with jaclem, robinson wins at middleweight while if he bumped up to face charles at light-H charles would beat him. i dont think charles would KO him, robinson was never knocked out in his whoel career. i do think charles would outpoint him.

yes, but one thing to consider is the build of each man. I mean Robinson moving from 147 to 160 and failing (in the heat, I know) at 175, and Charles moving from 160-175 and even heavyweight (becoming heavyweight champ).

Robinson was a great middle, but was inconsistent. Charles beat Burley twice (160, 161) and Maxim twice (165-6, but Maxim weighed 180). Not to mention he had wicked power and was very aggressive before he killed Sam Baroudi at 175.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 10 Sep 2005, 07:48

Very interesting feedback guys thanks.

It made me think that with many of us picking a Charles win here how that compares to many All-time Middleweight lists that are posted you get the usual Robinson, Monzon, Hagler, Greb & Ketchel mentioned at the very top but here some have Charles beating the man many put at the top of that list.

Just an thought.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 10 Sep 2005, 22:41

Ezzard might be struggling to make weight and on the lean side of his best and Sugar is probably over his best weight so it almost becomes fair with each being challenged a bit with weight in one direction or another.

I think Robinson would engineer a way to outpoint him. But he has to fight a perfect fight. And with Robinson a perfect fight is something he turned in more than once.