Fight Films Lost To History

[Giancarlo]

More recently...

Hagler-Finnegan was on TV (I and II) but does film exist of either fight?

Which TV station showed those 2 bouts?

[bollox]

Hey Klompy...do you reckon any footage of the Darcy - Fulton sparring sessions exist?

[klompton]

Only in the dreams of a few wishful or deluded Aussies...

[slakka]

I understand no film exists of Ken Buchannan vs Daunato Paudano underneath Ali vs Bonnaveena that had Budd Schulberg comparing Ken to Benny Valgar.

[King Carlos]

I understand no film exists of Ken Buchannan vs Daunato Paudano underneath Ali vs Bonnaveena that had Budd Schulberg comparing Ken to Benny Valgar.

You sure? I could've sworn that one used to be up on Youtube.

[klompton]

I understand no film exists of Ken Buchannan vs Daunato Paudano underneath Ali vs Bonnaveena that had Budd Schulberg comparing Ken to Benny Valgar.

I have Buchanan-Paduano

[peasem]

I understand no film exists of Ken Buchannan vs Daunato Paudano underneath Ali vs Bonnaveena that had Budd Schulberg comparing Ken to Benny Valgar.

You understand wrong ..... I have a copy of this also.

[loaded_gloves]

Regarding Quarry/Mathis, in a Quarry profile in a 1995 BI issue they describe Jerry sitting with his brother watching tapes of his career, they include the Mathis bout as one of the tapes they watched that day.

A guy on CBZ, Stinger Karl, says he has a copy from the Quarry family. He also says he has a copy of Jeff Merritt/Stan Ward. Obviously/sadly, he won't part with either.

I wonder if anybody has ever contacted Mathis Jnr about Quarry/Mathis?

[klompton]

"Regarding Quarry/Mathis, in a Quarry profile in a 1995 BI issue they describe Jerry sitting with his brother watching tapes of his career, they include the Mathis bout as one of the tapes they watched that day.

A guy on CBZ, Stinger Karl, says he has a copy from the Quarry family. He also says he has a copy of Jeff Merritt/Stan Ward. Obviously/sadly, he won't part with either.

I wonder if anybody has ever contacted Mathis Jnr about Quarry/Mathis?"

As I said before, Quarry-Mathis doesnt exist. Ive spoken with both the Quarry family (several members) and Buster Mathis jr. Neither of them know anything about the film. Ive spoken with Karl and Im satisfied he never had the film. Ive spoken with ESPN and BigFights they dont have it either and as stated before, if they ever did it was destroyed in a fire back in the 70s or copied over (as it would have been a 3/4" master which the company MSG hired to record these shows on often reused their tapes over time). There would have been no way for the Quarry or Mathis family's to have ever gotten a copy of this bout and even if they did they wouldnt have been able to watch or reproduce it. The only way they could have would have been for someone to have filmed it ringside. Yet Karl describes the film having commentary by Don Dunphy which means it would have been the studio master and hence impossible for him to have had. Nevermind the fact that now he says he moved out of his house and left it with his wife and she threw it out. Uhhh yeah, youve got one of the rarest boxing matches ever and you just leave it behind when you move to be destroyed... sure. I can prove Ive got what I say I have by taking a simple screen capture of the fight. Wanna bet anyone saying they have this film refuses to do even that...

[klompton]

See how easy it is. The top two are from my 16mm print of Dave Shade sparring Jack Renault in Florida in 1926. The bottom one is the 1916 fight between Jim Savage and Battling Levinsky on the undercard of Willard-Moran.

[klompton]

More:

Benny Bass - Red Chapman
Young Kloby - Eddie Shevlin
Pete Latzo - Joe Dundee
Johnny Kilbane - George Chaney
Tom Heeney - Otto Von Porat
Rocky Kansas - Jimmy Goodrich
Benny Bass - Harry Blitman
Tom Sharkey - Kid McCoy

[loaded_gloves]

Wow, what a weird thing to do. I wonder why on earth anyone would need to claim they had a fight that they didn't? What it is it he was trying to achieve?

Very odd indeed - thanks for the tip off.

[klompton]

Some of these guys come out and say they have things they dont in order to draw out other collectors with rare stuff. Other guys just want to look special, and still other guys are just morons who want to screw with people.

[BoxBuzz]

Nevertheless, I am quite certain I am the only one who knows the whereabouts of the only cave stone etchings of Neanderthal Ned Vs Gronk.

To assure all of you of my credibility on this matter, I will offer these cave drawings of the three ringside judges heading to their rock seats, shortly before the bout began.

[dempseyfire]

Wasn't the Marvin Johnson-Leslie Stewart war shown on TV?

[klompton]

Another interesting one:

Gunboat Smith-Arthur Pelkey

[klompton]

And another really interesting one:

Sam Langford-Jack Lester

[Jake Hughes]

The fights on this list were filmed and are currently lost as far as I know. I didnt add any Greb fights because Im sure people get tired of me talking about him. Needless to say this list is in no way comprehensive. Ive found dozens more like the above I just can lay my hands on what Ive done with the sources or lists they are on.

I never knew anywhere near the number of significant fights you mentioned were filmed. You have just made me simultaneously exited and depressed at the thought of both their filming and their subsequent loss!

Like you I am Greb fan, huge Greb fan. I am also a huge Tunney fan. Needless to say then that the Holy Grail for me would be, and always will be, their first fight; the one before Tunney "learnt" how to fight him, and received such a shellacking from the little Pittsburgh Windmill. To see the greatest ever Middleweight destroy a true future all-time great Heavyweight MUST be the ultimate fight lost to history. I do not exaggerate one iota when I say I would rather own that particular Holy Grail than the one supposedly hiked around and lost by King Arthur and his buddies.

It's stated in either the Bill Baxton book on Greb or the Jack Cavangh book on Tunney that this fight was definitely filmed, but that it would have to have been stored in some fairly specific almost lab like conditions for it to have survived in a viewable state.

[klompton]

but that it would have to have been stored in some fairly specific almost lab like conditions for it to have survived in a viewable state.

Not necessarily true. I have a Clabby-DeVitt film from 1910 (12 years before Greb-Tunney 1, and a lifetime in film) on nitrate that is in excellent shape and had never been preserved. There is hope. If a film can survive 101 years in excellent shape there is a good chance for others.

[CNorkusJr]

My name is Charlie Norkus Jr. My father was a heavyweight back in the 1950's.

Just a little history as I know it on fight films.

In 1970 ( I was a teen aged kid)- my father brought me to mid town Manhattan to meet with Jim Jacobs. At the time Jim Jacobs owned Big Fights Inc. (I do not think he was assoc. with Bill Cayton at that date-though I could be wrong. We entered a high rise office bldg and proceeded to a floor with a steel door entrance. We knocked and was met by Jim Jacobs-(we had an appointment).
We entered only a few feet into the vestibule and I remember seeing a multitude of racks 7 ft high and about 4 or 5 rows on each. They were very long (over 75 ft in length if my memory serves mr right). Each row was filled with canisters of film. My guess- thousands of films o recordings.
My father asaked Jim previously for a copy of his first and 2nd Nardico fights. Jim obliged and made copies of those 16mm films and gave them to my father.(The basic medium for the films at the time were 16mm copies) Free of charge and the promise not to sell them or to put them on TV or in some kind of moneymaking situation on a handshake. Jim owned the viewable rights to his libraries.

From what I understand, he did this service for many pro fighters on request and with the same stipulations. Speaking with many fighters over the years- many and I mean many, went to Jim for these requests and I would think he obliged.
It is one reason why many fights exists in public. By collectors.

Over time, like my fathers various copies of films, they become worn, thread rips and celluloid fades. Many boxers would agree to send the films to collectors to be restored
and copies of the restored films would be sent back on VHS or nowadays- DVD with the collectors keeping the original "copies" of the films.

Pairing up with Cayton later on, they both had the rights to the huge library. Upon their deaths, the library went to Bill Cayton Jr, who eventually sold the entire library "lock, stock and barrel" to ESPN / Disney where they sit in a huge vault I undestand.

I 've have tried to get other copies of the TV fights from them to no avail. Like Norkus- Archie Moore 1958 which exists. They could not or would not do that for me.
They did however send me a PRISTINE COPY of the Norkus-Nardico II fight on DVD with no sound. Not a blemish on it.
The fights that you search for exists, but most likely not see unless the corporate people open up their vaults for publication.
I hope this helps. The greatest collectors friend in the business was Jim Jacobs, and you can pay him tribute if you watch any fight videos at all.
I did not do business with Bill Cayton Sr, so he might deserve an accolade or two also.

The radio tapes from fights on radio did exists in the 70's and 80's. I am unsure if Jim Jacobs had those rights also, mostly likely though.
I have the Brion-Norkus II radio fight on cassette which was available publicly in the 1970's. I do not know where all those fights are now.

[yancey]

Does a film of the Doug Jones-Joe Frazier fight exist?

[klompton]

A short clip of Frazier-Jones exists.

I do not believe Moore-Norkus exists. I would be interested in hearing why Mr. Norkus thinks it does.

Cayton and Jacobs only owned a relatively small percentage of the rights to fights in their collection. The bulk of those originating from the Madison Square Garden co. This is part of the reason why ESPN only shows a limited number of them. They used to strong arm people in to thinking that they owned all of those rights to all of their films but it was revealed during a court case that they didnt. In fact, there is a taped deposition of Truman Gibson, lawyer for the IBC where he states that Cayton and Jacobs never purchased those rights. Furthermore, the rights on a lot of those older fights have lapsed and are now in the public domain.

Knowing how Caytons and Jacobs acquired their radio broadcasts I would say it is almost a certainty they dont have the rights to those, or at least not the VAST majority of them.

[CNorkusJr]

A short clip of Frazier-Jones exists.

I do not believe Moore-Norkus exists. I would be interested in hearing why Mr. Norkus thinks it does.

Cayton and Jacobs only owned a relatively small percentage of the rights to fights in their collection. The bulk of those originating from the Madison Square Garden co. This is part of the reason why ESPN only shows a limited number of them. They used to strong arm people in to thinking that they owned all of those rights to all of their films but it was revealed during a court case that they didnt. In fact, there is a taped deposition of Truman Gibson, lawyer for the IBC where he states that Cayton and Jacobs never purchased those rights. Furthermore, the rights on a lot of those older fights have lapsed and are now in the public domain.

Knowing how Caytons and Jacobs acquired their radio broadcasts I would say it is almost a certainty they dont have the rights to those, or at least not the VAST majority of them.

My father's fight with Archie Moore was on National TV. My father always held that the fight existed on reel. Why he did not get a copy over the years will never be known because he passed. My father acquired some of his fights via Jim Jacobs-others were gotten by other collectors that he bought them from in the late70's.(Eg. Tony Fosco in Chicago, reknowned collector-now deceased, found my fathers fight with Joey Rowan in England in early 2000.It was the film negative and the asking price of $300 US. He wanted to know if I would split the fee with him receiving the film negative, then him converting it and put on VHS. He would keep original reel film. I agreed.)
The first Nardico-Norkus was not televised live-but was recorded none-the less and made the rounds.

Throughout the years, my father met with Archie Moore several times while Mr Moore was in NYC. Archie told my father that he HAS GOT a copy of their fight in his huge collection. Implored each time to bring it out with him or send it, Archie never did. My father said this to me several times.
After Archie died, a sports collectors periodical did a article on Archie Moore items. It stated he had over 100 fight films in his collection (mostly his, some not of his fights).
They were sold at auction a few months after his death for a large sum by his family I remember I read..
It was only through my fathers words and he got it from Archie, that the film existed. I have no reason to believe it doesnt or at least in HL form, as it was on National TV.
I do not know if Jacobs had it, I can only assume he did.
Thank You for any info you may have on it or the Norkus-Kennedy fight which my father scored a 1st Rd Ko over Kennedy on TV.

[CNorkusJr]

On the lapsed rights to the films. Often I google my fathers name to see what new comes up. About 7-8 yrs ago, on a page like 11 or 12, I found a link that turned up the paperwork for rights to many BIG FIGHTS INC renewals. The contract (or legal document on line) had the 2nd Norkus-Nardico fight with several time era fights from Champs listed. I do not know the implications but it appeared the rights were renewed at that time.

[klompton]

Essentially Jacobs started out as a collector. Nothing more. He and Cayton combined their collections to form a commercial partnership whereby they would license footage. Cayton, the money man, would send Jacobs all over creation looking for these films to purchase. In most instances they purchased the film and nothing more. This has been shown in court on several occasions. They got around this because most people associated with these old fights were dead, had forgotten, or didnt care. Anyone who tried to step on their toes they strong armed with threats of legal action. When someone stood up to them they more often than not either dropped it or lost. In essence they believed that possession was nine tenths of the law and if they bought a film they owned the rights, the hoped the people they were selling to or threatening bought into this. Most did, but copyright law is more complex than that and it came back to bite them more than once. I have no doubt that they also filed copyrights on fights they had no business filing rights to, but you can file copyright on anything, the question is will it hold up in court? Most people wouldnt challenge them, and thats what they counted on.