Rating the heavyweight greats based on competetion

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Muhammad ali, marciano, louis, jack johnson, tyson, dempsey, holmes, frazier, jeffries, lennox lewis

heres how i rate them from best to worst based on competetion .

i rate on HOF that they fought, top contenders they fought, how good the opponents were all time, and if they fought a lot of fights in there career.

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Joe Frazier
4. Larry Holmes
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Jack Johnson
7. Mike Tyson
8. Jack Dempsey
9. Lennox Lewis
10. Jeffries- i am not disrespecting jeffries or the old time greats. if fitzimmons and Corbett were in their primes, hed be a lot higher but both were way over the hill. and jeffries only had 19 fights which u have to take into consideration. the only legit heavyweight he beat was tom sharkey who is not a top 40 heavyweight. i would have liked to see him stay and ifght tommy burns and marvin hart. that would have helped.
also he beat on a lot of guys that were almost at the light-H weight limit.

[iceman21287]

Here's how I would rate them:

1. Muhammad Ali - A case can be made for both Ali and Louis, but seeing as how this is based on competition, I'll give the edge to Ali, who in reality did fight MUCH better competition than The Brown Bomber.

2. Joe Louis - Say what you will about some of his opponents, but defending the world heavyweight title 25 times is possibly the greatest feat in all of boxing.

3. Jack Johnson - This was tough for me because I'm not quite sure if you were rating them based on competition as champion or for their entire career. Despite the fact that he was unable to fight some of the best in his time do to his skin color, he still defeated many talented opponents. Frank Childs, George Gardner, Marvin Hart, Sam Langford, Bob Fitzsimmons (way past his prime), Tommy Burns, Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, Stanley Ketchel, Jim Jeffries (yes, way past his prime), Frank Moran, and Jess Willard (Johnson was 37 when he lost to Willard).

4. Jack Dempsey - Dempsey fought many greats in his time. Gunboat Smith, Battling Levinsky, Jess Willard, Bill Brennan, Georges Carpentier, Tommy Gibbons, Luis Firpo (one of the greatest fighters never to win the title), Jack Sharkey, and Gene Tunney (though he lost both times).

5. Joe Frazier - In a short period of time, Frazier fought some of the greatest this game has ever produced. Unfortunately, losing 4 out of 5 fights to the other two great fighters of his era, Ali and Foreman, lower his ranking a bit. Besides Ali and Foreman, Frazier fought Oscar Bonavena, Eddie Machen, George Chuvalo, Buster Mathis, Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis, and Bob Foster - all very good fighters, but not a staggering list by any means.

6. Rocky Marciano - Like the first 4, Marciano is one of the all time greats in the heavyweight division. Going 49-0 with 43 KO's in your career helps your cause a little. However, if you look at some of the fighters that Marciano fought, you realize one of the reasons why he was 49-0. Marciano did fight some great ones, but he also fought more chumps than any heavyweight champion except probably mike tyson. He didn't fight chumps as a champion, but in the process of becoming a champ, he fought a LOT of guys who had no business even being in the ring. To his credit, Marciano did fight and beat Roland LaStarza, Rex Layne, Joe Louis (he may have been past his prime, but it was still Joe Louis), Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, and Archie Moore, all of whom were great fighters.

7. Larry Holmes - Didn't fight the greatest talent when compared to the previous champs on the list, but in his defense, was in his prime at a time when there wasn't much talent period. Fought Earnie Shavers, Ken Norton, Alfredo Evangelista, Leroy Jones, Muhammad Ali, Trevor Berbick, Leon Spinks, Gerry Cooney (the good one, not the exposed one), Tim Witherspoon, Marvis Frazier, Bonecrusher Smith, David Bey, Carl Williams, Michael Spinks, Mike Tyson, Ray Mercer, Evander Holyfield, Oliver McCall, and of course, the all-time great, Butterbean.

8. Lennox Lewis - Fought a lot of good opposition for a long time, but never had that defining moment in his career where people will look back and say, "he's one of the greats". Part of that has to do with the fact that Tyson was already shot when Lewis took him apart. Lewis' opponents include Razor Ruddock, Tony Tucker, Frank Bruno, Oliver McCall, Tommy Morrison, Ray Mercer, Henry Akinwande, Andrew Golota, Shannon Briggs, Evander Holyfield, David Tua, Hasim Rahman, and Mike Tyson.

9. Mike Tyson - One of the most talented fighters in the history of boxing, who never defeated a great heavy with the exception of a past-prime Larry Holmes. If Tyson had defeated Holyfield even once, he most likely would move up past lewis and holmes. His opponents include: Quick Tillis, Marvis Frazier, Trevor Berbick, Bonecrusher Smith, Pinklon Thomas, Tony Tucker, Larry Holmes, Tony Tubbs, Michael Spinks, Frank Bruno, Carl Williams, Buster Douglas, Razor Ruddock, Evander Holyfield, and Lennox Lewis.

10. Jim Jeffries - Just like Brockton said, I'm not in any way disprespecting the old timers here. His explanation pretty much speaks for itself:

"i am not disrespecting jeffries or the old time greats. if fitzimmons and Corbett were in their primes, hed be a lot higher but both were way over the hill. and jeffries only had 19 fights which u have to take into consideration. the only legit heavyweight he beat was tom sharkey who is not a top 40 heavyweight. i would have liked to see him stay and ifght tommy burns and marvin hart. that would have helped.
also he beat on a lot of guys that were almost at the light-H weight limit."

And that's how I would list the 10 fighters that brockton selected.[/quote]

[Ezzard]

I think Liston fought better opponents than many on the list. I'd say Foreman did too. Both men beat more quality opposition than Tyson did. Holyfield beat Tyson twice, Bowe once, Douglas, got a draw and a controversial loss to Lewis, also beat Mercer, Dokes, Thomas...

[iceman21287]

I think Liston fought better opponents than many on the list. I'd say Foreman did too. Both men beat more quality opposition than Tyson did. Holyfield beat Tyson twice, Bowe once, Douglas, got a draw and a controversial loss to Lewis, also beat Mercer, Dokes, Thomas...

I agree with you. I was just reordering brockton's list the way I would put it. I think brockton would agree with you too. I'm not sure but I don't think he was saying those were the 10 champs who fought the greatest opposition. I think what he did was take his top 10 all-time heavyweights and ordered them based on their competition. I'm just guessing on that though.

[Ezzard]

Cheers Ice...

I think you're right...

[The Great John L]

10. Jeffries- i am not disrespecting jeffries or the old time greats. if fitzimmons and Corbett were in their primes, hed be a lot higher but both were way over the hill. and jeffries only had 19 fights which u have to take into consideration. the only legit heavyweight he beat was tom sharkey who is not a top 40 heavyweight. i would have liked to see him stay and ifght tommy burns and marvin hart. that would have helped.
also he beat on a lot of guys that were almost at the light-H weight limit.

Jeffries also beat Gus Ruhlin who was a very underrated and somewhat forgotten HW, and I wouldn't say that Fitz was quite spent yet, as he went on to win the LH championship of the world after losing twice to Jeff. As you have pointed out repeatedly (and tirelessly I might add) age is not the ultimate determinent of a fighters prime. Not saying that Fitz was in his prime, but he certainly had a lot left. As far as Tom Sharkey, I could easily argue that he WAS a top 40 all time HW. Late in life, Nat Fleischer rated Sharkey as the greatest HW to have never won a championship.

Having said all that, I would probably also put Jeff at about 10 as well. Just not enough fights, although I think early gloved fighters fought MANY competitive exhibitions that are not included in records, but contributed greatly to their skill and experience levels.

Now where is the Great John L in all of these lists?

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

well actually i just happen to chose those ten.
jeffries, lennox lewis, are not in my top ten.

i have liston and Foreman in my top ten. i simply decided to chose lennox lewis and jeffries in my level of competetion

my top ten is

1. louis
2. ali
3. marciano
4. johnson
5. Larry Holmes
6. Foreman
7. Joe Frazier
8. Jack Dempsey
9. mike tyson
10. Sonny Liston

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

i just decided to rate some random heavyweight greats

i left out of a lot of heavyweight and great heavyweight champions including john L just because i wanted to rate THOSE TEN ONLY.
and i love john l sullivan by the way , read a very interesting intierview on him. no doubt he was as tough as nails and was a all time bareknucle boxer. and i believe he had the potential to if he had to switch his style box and modern days he would de very well cause he was so damm strng and athletic.
u think in his prime he would have beat corbett????


and ur right about age and im glad i point it out cause fitzimmons at 34 was still tough. but he fought jeffries he had been inactive for almost 3 years and was almost 37.


hey off to college now, veyr exicted. talk later. wish me luck. got any advice??

[Ezzard]

hey off to college now, veyr exicted. talk later. wish me luck. got any advice??

Read the books, got to classes, carry condoms...

[The Great John L]

and ur right about age and im glad i point it out cause fitzimmons at 34 was still tough. but he fought jeffries he had been inactive for almost 3 years and was almost 37.


hey off to college now, veyr exicted. talk later. wish me luck. got any advice??

Fitz had just turned 36 when he fought Jeff for the first time. And his inactivity based on BoxRec was 2 years, but this is not a complete record of his activity. As I noted, early fighters kept very active in competitve exhibitions, which were essentially fights but are not recorded. So Fitz was not really inactive. And even if he was 37, what difference does that make? Or is it just that the age of Rock's opponents doesn't matter? I could say that Fitz peaked late as u have stated about Walcott, but I don't believe that. He was better when he was younger, but I think he aged better than most HW's beacause of his conditioning and was still a very strong force when he fought Jeff, and for many years after. Remember he won the LH title at the age of 40 against a VERY good George Gardner.

Of course, I still wouldn't rate Jeff in the top 5, but he is probably GREATLY under rated now, as pretty much all early gloved fighters are.

BTW, John L is responsible for the popularity of gloved boxing. He adopted it late in his career and pioneered it as the way matches should be fought. While his first gloved defense was against Corbett, he had fought many other contests prior to that using the newer rules. Not sure if he could have beaten Corbett, since I'm not quite old enough to have seen either of them fight. However, Nat Fleischer saw John L fight when he was very young, and personally knew most of the early HW champions and he rated John L as the greatest of them all. Perhaps that's simply his own nostalhia, but NO ONE knows who could have won in these mythical matchups. Certainly John L he may be the MOST IMPORTANT HW champ, since he was the one who made boxing truly popular with the masses.

Always on the level, John L

[tiredoldngrey]

In rating the quality of Ali's opposition so highly, most like to point to the fact that he fought a handful of guys currently in the HoF. But that is an inaccurate scale to go by because Norton, Frazier and Patterson and dammit even Liston are in there only because they fought Ali. Frazier was only 9-4 against top ten fighters or rigning champions during his career and the standard of his opposition otherwise wasn't all that. Norton was 4-7-1, ko'd 4 times in fights with top level boxer and unless one can pitch a case for Bob Mashburn, James Woody, Reco Brooks, etc... then he didn't beat up many superstars otherwise. Patterson was 14-8-1 against top rated fighters, was KO'd 5 times and was down more than any other HW champ and he was very very carefully matched for the first decade of his career. Liston was 8-4 versus top ten and championship competition. Afetr twice being stopped by Ali he fought precisely one top ten guy over the next 5 years and was KO'd in that fight. I am sceptical bout whether or not beating the guys he beat before winning the title qualifies one for a HoF, but I know for sure that two ko losses of somewhat suspicious nature then a fistful of fights against nobodies and one more resounding out cold KO loss do not.

[sharkeysboy]

Boy, Jack Dempsey is a tough myth to kill. He should not be anywhere close to a list based on quality opponents. Willard sucked when he was 27, Dempsey fought Jess when he was 37. Firpo was a great fighter? I guess that's makes Gerry Cooney unstoppable. Give me a break. Carpentier and Gibbons were LHWs. As was Tunney who thrashed Jack twice. Miske was dying when he fought Jack (who always regretted fighting Miske when he was in ill health.) Two Harry's would probably have beaten Dempsey, Wills and Greb. But we'll never know because Jack drew the color line against Wills and wouldn't fight Greb even though there were a bunch of other LHWs he was willing to fight. In 2002, Sports Illustrated called Jack Dempsey one of the most overrated athletes in American history. Evidently that's still the case.

[The Great John L]

Boy, Jack Dempsey is a tough myth to kill. He should not be anywhere close to a list based on quality opponents. Willard sucked when he was 27, Dempsey fought Jess when he was 37. Firpo was a great fighter? I guess that's makes Gerry Cooney unstoppable. Give me a break. Carpentier and Gibbons were LHWs. As was Tunney who thrashed Jack twice. Miske was dying when he fought Jack (who always regretted fighting Miske when he was in ill health.) Two Harry's would probably have beaten Dempsey, Wills and Greb. But we'll never know because Jack drew the color line against Wills and wouldn't fight Greb even though there were a bunch of other LHWs he was willing to fight. In 2002, Sports Illustrated called Jack Dempsey one of the most overrated athletes in American history. Evidently that's still the case.

Well he kicked Jack Sharkey's ass.

[sharkeysboy]

Got so wrapped up in my Dempsey rant I forgot to throw my list in.

1. Ali
2. Frazier
3. Foreman (He fought two different generations of fighters)
4. Johnson (Langford, Jeannette, Jeffries, Fitzsimmons)
5. Louis (Others have him higher but between Schmelling and Walcott he hardly worked up a sweat except for Billy Conn who was a LHW)
6. Holmes
7. Marciano
8. Jeffries (Sharkey, Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Jackson) I think Jeff is underrated.
9. Holyfield
10. Fitzsimmons (Sharkey, Corbett, Jeffries, Johnson)

[sharkeysboy]

[quote="The Great John L
Well he kicked Jack Sharkey's ass.[/quote]

That's true. That proves his power wasn't overrated. Sharkey was without a doubt the best heavyweight Dempsey fought. Of course, Sharkey was dominating the fight until Dempsey chose not to "write him a letter." Sharkey was a quality opponent, no doubt about that, but one quality HW does not an impressive resume make. I realize looking at my list that it was pretty dumb to leave Sonny Liston off. He should be around 6th and that would push Fitz off.

[The Great John L]

[quote="The Great John L
Well he kicked Jack Sharkey's ass.

That's true. That proves his power wasn't overrated. Sharkey was without a doubt the best heavyweight Dempsey fought. Of course, Sharkey was dominating the fight until Dempsey chose not to "write him a letter." Sharkey was a quality opponent, no doubt about that, but one quality HW does not an impressive resume make. I realize looking at my list that it was pretty dumb to leave Sonny Liston off. He should be around 6th and that would push Fitz off.[/quote]

That was intended as a joke. However, doing a little homework I came up with a pretty good resume for Dempsey. Prior to winning the title he fought, among others,

Jim Flynn
Edward Gunboat Smith
Carl Morris
Bill Brennan
Arthur Pelkey
Fred Fulton
Battling Levinsky
Billy Miske (when he wasn't near death)

Everybody listed was a world class fighter, and many were quite large. There were quite a few other good fighters as well, but these were the most well known. Of course, some were past their primes, but so were many of the opponents for the other HW champs.

And, of course, I can't bring up anyone he beat after winning the title, because they were all either lousy fighters or too small, or too old. Of course, I think Tunney was pretty good, and he even came into the ring as a HW.

[Rory McCloskey]

i think thats a little extreme to call sharkey without a doubt the best fighter dempsey ever fought...i would say hes one of the top 3..but gene tunney is often overlooked and he IMO is the best boxer dempsey ever fought, which fits in with part of the reason why he lost to him

[sharkeysboy]

i think thats a little extreme to call sharkey without a doubt the best fighter dempsey ever fought...i would say hes one of the top 3..but gene tunney is often overlooked and he IMO is the best boxer dempsey ever fought, which fits in with part of the reason why he lost to him

I said he was the best heavyweight. I meant that Tunney was a LHW. But certainly Tunney was the best fighter he ever fought. Somebody mentioned Fireman Flynn. I don't agree he was a formidable opponent but he was one of the most enduring fighters. 42 wins, 38 loses, 18 draws. 38 loses!! That's hanging in there. Have you seen the film of Flynn being knocked out by Sam Langford? If you take into consideration the sped up old film, he was out cold for at least 5 minutes. He was back fighting before too long. Tough boy. Maybe not so smart.

[gibber785]

1) Dempsey
2) Marciano
3) Tunney
4) Louis
5) Ali
6) Foreman
7) Frazier
8) Tyson
9) Liston
10) Jack Johnson

[gilgamesh]

If you're talking strictly about the quality of opponents they fought. Then Muhammad Ali would be #1, and Evander Holyfield would be #2.

[Ezzard]

Holyfield might be number 1.

[gilgamesh]

Holyfield might be number 1.

He's definitely the only other person in the conversation besides Ali. Those 2 far and away faced the toughest schedules of any other Heavyweight Legend.

[cfang]

Joe Frazier was quite carefully matched particularly after the fotc and the foreman loss. His defences were against stander and Daniels. He fought bugner, Ellis, quarry. Good fighters but not killers. He never fought Norton. I know they were mates but still and Lyle was also avoided.

Don’t get me wrong. A great fighter but was carefully matched a lot. Ali fought everyone as did evander. Lewis also had an amazing quality of opp.

[Ambling Alp II]

Louis fought four former heavyweight champions before he got a title shot. (Carnera, Baer, Schmeling and Sharkey).
Then fought four more guys who were hw champions at one time or another. (Braddock, Walcott, Charles and Marciano). Several good contenders as well throughout his career. He has to be up there.
Would be interesting to take a really deep dive into all of these guys.

[gilgamesh]

Louis fought four former heavyweight champions before he got a title shot. (Carnera, Baer, Schmeling and Sharkey).
Then fought four more guys who were hw champions at one time or another. (Braddock, Walcott, Charles and Marciano). Several good contenders as well throughout his career. He has to be up there.
Would be interesting to take a really deep dive into all of these guys.

I've been working on it. It's been a fun little side project when I got time to waste, and I agree about Louis surely being 3 or so. Jack Johnson would probably be high on the list of competition as well because his competition was extremely stiff prior to winning the Championship, and he fought a few noteworthy's after winning it as well.

Ezzard Charles of course consistently fought stellar competition throughout his career, and Heavyweight was no exception. Those 5 would probably be the Top 5 as far as the quality of the competition they fought.