Henry Armstrong or Sugar Ray Robinson?: Who was the best?

[elmersalsa]

Between the two, we are going to discuss, according to your view, who was the REAL GREATEST POUND PER POUND FIGHTER OF ALL TIME.

As general consensous by boxing writers and experts, they had agreed, the majority of them, the great Sugar Ray Robinson as the greatest fighter pound per pound of all-time. I believe different and so others that I had read their posts think that the great Henry Armstrong should be. Well, the Ring Magazine has Robinson as the #1 ever...Do you agree or disagree?

[Goodnight, Irene]

I disagree. I have Robinson at #4 all-time, and Armstrong is indeed my all-time #1. Here is a guy so unprecedented, he changed the rules of Boxing. Thats unreal.

There is too much a mythology built around certain men, where at some point a fair share of people are just parroting what they hear. Thats how you get Chavez ending up with 90% of votes for best Mexican ever, Duran and Ali doing the same for best Light and Heavy ever. Skewed and misleading results.

[NazNaci1]

Henry Armstrong. Just an incredible, incredible fighter. What he achieved will never ever been matched. fighting and besting the toughest, most skilled fighters. Unbelievable resume.

The orignal Sugar Ray is definitely a consideration, due to his immense talent, achievements and will to win. I have Ray Robinson at No 3 in my list but Armstrong is No1, for me.

[elmersalsa]

I also believe that the great Henry Armstrong, to me, was/is the greatest fighter pound per pound of all-time.

I got the great Sugar Ray Robinson at #2.

Armstrong to me, beat more hall of fame boxers and world champions and what he did in one year alone, is by far better than lots of fighters whole careers. Especially the year 1937, where he won 27 in a row by KO and from 1936 through 1940, he had a record of 57-1 and already won 3 titles in 3 different weight classes? Amazing.

He was an incredible and amazing fighter!

[elmersalsa]

Armstrong to me was by far the best fighter of the 1930s. He was the head of the class of his generation.

[scallum]

What other fighter coulda been throw in the deep waters in 1st year and strived like Srr did?

[Goodnight, Irene]

I also believe that the great Henry Armstrong, to me, was/is the greatest fighter pound per pound of all-time.

I got the great Sugar Ray Robinson at #2.

Armstrong to me, beat more hall of fame boxers and world champions and what he did in one year alone, is by far better than lots of fighters whole careers. Especially the year 1937, where he won 27 in a row by KO and from 1936 through 1940, he had a record of 57-1 and already won 3 titles in 3 different weight classes? Amazing.

He was an incredible and amazing fighter!

Youd think such a fighter would stand a better-than-even chance of not getting his ears boxed in by Ken Buchanan, but...

[raylawpc]

I also believe that the great Henry Armstrong, to me, was/is the greatest fighter pound per pound of all-time.

I got the great Sugar Ray Robinson at #2.

Armstrong to me, beat more hall of fame boxers and world champions and what he did in one year alone, is by far better than lots of fighters whole careers. Especially the year 1937, where he won 27 in a row by KO and from 1936 through 1940, he had a record of 57-1 and already won 3 titles in 3 different weight classes? Amazing.

He was an incredible and amazing fighter!

Youd think such a fighter would stand a better-than-even chance of not getting his ears boxed in by Ken Buchanan, but...

Or losing "big time" to Sugar Ray Leonard . . .

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Sam Langford was the best.

[Seamus]

Between those two, I'll pick Robinson, though an argument could be made for Harry Greb being the greatest fighter ever.

['Frilla]

I disagree. I have Robinson at #4 all-time, and Armstrong is indeed my all-time #1. Here is a guy so unprecedented, he changed the rules of Boxing. Thats unreal.

There is too much a mythology built around certain men, where at some point a fair share of people are just parroting what they hear. Thats how you get Chavez ending up with 90% of votes for best Mexican ever, Duran and Ali doing the same for best Light and Heavy ever. Skewed and misleading results.

Ive got Armstrong #2 and Robinson #1, but i know it probably wont stay that way for too long, at the moment i am still taking in the history of the sport.

Just out of curiousity, who is your #2 and #3 all time?

[Goodnight, Irene]

#2 - Greb
#3 - Langford.

['Frilla]

[scallum]

Greb has very strong case of being the greatest fighter ever. I would rank both Srr and Greb above Armstrong

[keithmoonhangover]

Who was best? Robinson was pretty much the perfect boxer at welter.

[King Carlos]

1. Greb
2. Robinson
3. Armstrong
4. Langford

[beaujack]

1. Greb
2. Robinson
3. Armstrong
4. Langford

Bingo, KC correct. It has to be Harry Greb...Greb had the greatest resume in history of going out of his weight class time and again...Greb was fearless and challenged everyone, fought everyone, and DUCKED no one...Just look at his victims, many HOFamers who outweighed Greb by 12-35 pounds...
Gene Tunney
Tommy Gibbons
Tommy Loughran
Jack Dillon
Battling Levinsky
Maxie Rosenbloom
Gunboat Smith
Kid Norfolk
Big Bill Brennan [spotted Brennan 35 pounds and beat Brennan 4 times nary losing a round ]
Willie Meehan[gave Dempsey fits]
Mickey Walker...Billy Miske
Harry Greb had 300 bouts in his hectic career...Except for his first 4 rd fight when he was stopped by a vastly experienced and heavier Joe Chip, Greb fought the next 280 or so bouts without ever being stopped again...In one amazing year the great Greb had FORTY FIVE fights winning every bout he fought...Won 45 out of 45 fights in ONE YEAR...Stunning...
AND lest we forget Greb in his last 5 or so years was BLIND in ONE ORBIT....Fighting great LHs and HWs with only one eye...Imagine the courage it required to enter the ring knowing that one blow on his remaining eye would render Greb BLIND and helpless in front of a crowd and his opponent...?
What raw courage and cojons Harry Greb had...
Jack Johnson after his retirement boxed with Greb and called Greb the fastest man he had ever seen...
Jack Dempsey who Greb gave fits in sparring sessions said , "hell Harry Greb is faster than Benny Leonard " ...Virtually all the great victims of Greb called him the best fighter they had ever seen...
As for Ray Robinson [the best fighter I saw ringside as a WW], Robby was tremendous in his great career, but he never truly tackled the top LHs like Ezzard Charles,nor Archie Moore, nor Harold Johnson, nor Lloyd Marshall, etc...The great Robinson knew his limitations and except for a very light punching Joey Maxim , Robinson never attempted going after the top big boys...
One other thing...One test I can think of who was better between Greb and Robinson "? I am certain that Harry Greb would have beaten any opponent of Ray Robinson's.. I know that Robinson could
NEVER beat the likes of a Tunney, Gibbons, Loughran, Maxie Rosenbloom, Jack Dillon, Billy Miske...
They were too big for Robinson, but for the fearless Harry Greb LHS and heavyweights he took them on and whipped them all...His likes we will never see again...

[Goodnight, Irene]

1. Greb
2. Robinson
3. Armstrong
4. Langford

Bingo, KC correct. It has to be Harry Greb...Greb had the greatest resume in history of going out of his weight class time and again...Greb was fearless and challenged everyone, fought everyone, and DUCKED no one...Just look at his victims, many HOFamers who outweighed Greb by 12-35 pounds...
Gene Tunney
Tommy Gibbons
Tommy Loughran
Jack Dillon
Battling Levinsky
Maxie Rosenbloom
Gunboat Smith
Kid Norfolk
Big Bill Brennan [spotted Brennan 35 pounds and beat Brennan 4 times nary losing a round ]
Willie Meehan[gave Dempsey fits]
Mickey Walker...Billy Miske
Harry Greb had 300 bouts in his hectic career...Except for his first 4 rd fight when he was stopped by a vastly experienced and heavier Joe Chip, Greb fought the next 280 or so bouts without ever being stopped again...In one amazing year the great Greb had FORTY FIVE fights winning every bout he fought...Won 45 out of 45 fights in ONE YEAR...Stunning...
AND lest we forget Greb in his last 5 or so years was BLIND in ONE ORBIT....Fighting great LHs and HWs with only one eye...Imagine the courage it required to enter the ring knowing that one blow on his remaining eye would render Greb BLIND and helpless in front of a crowd and his opponent...?
What raw courage and cojons Harry Greb had...
Jack Johnson after his retirement boxed with Greb and called Greb the fastest man he had ever seen...
Jack Dempsey who Greb gave fits in sparring sessions said , "hell Harry Greb is faster than Benny Leonard " ...Virtually all the great victims of Greb called him the best fighter they had ever seen...
As for Ray Robinson [the best fighter I saw ringside as a WW], Robby was tremendous in his great career, but he never truly tackled the top LHs like Ezzard Charles,nor Archie Moore, nor Harold Johnson, nor Lloyd Marshall, etc...The great Robinson knew his limitations and except for a very light punching Joey Maxim , Robinson never attempted going after the top big boys...
One other thing...One test I can think of who was better between Greb and Robinson "? I am certain that Harry Greb would have beaten any opponent of Ray Robinson's.. I know that Robinson could
NEVER beat the likes of a Tunney, Gibbons, Loughran, Maxie Rosenbloom, Jack Dillon, Billy Miske...
They were too big for Robinson, but for the fearless Harry Greb LHS and heavyweights he took them on and whipped them all...His likes we will never see again...

Stopped reading here.

An absolutely ludicrous claim.

[dempseyfire]

1) Harry Greb
2) Sam Langford
3) Ray Robinson
4) Henry Armstrong

I thin #2-#4 are almost interchangeable . . VERY close. Langford has an incredible resume with Ws over ATG lightweights (Gans) up to HW (the black 4some minus Johnson who avoided him during his title reign). Robinson may be under-rated by me as the majority of the good footage we have of him is post-comeback when he was already in his mid 30s. AT welter the guy was unreal and the record accomodates that notion. Armstrong had the best 3-4 year run in boxing history.

Greb's resume is hands-down the best in boxing history. One could rank the 3 below him at #1 with fair arguments, but I have a hard time seeing how you could eclipse what he did in the ring.

One thing I do find interesting though is Greb being ranked so high is more of a recent phenom (among the few hardcore boxing people left). In all of the major publications and among the old historians he was ranked highly but I don't think ANYONE ranked him even in their top 3 to ever fight, and only Herb Goldman made him his #1 middle ever. Was it that his style wasn't flashy? His alleged propensity to fight dirty?

[beaujack]

1) Harry Greb
2) Sam Langford
3) Ray Robinson
4) Henry Armstrong

I thin #2-#4 are almost interchangeable . . VERY close. Langford has an incredible resume with Ws over ATG lightweights (Gans) up to HW (the black 4some minus Johnson who avoided him during his title reign). Robinson may be under-rated by me as the majority of the good footage we have of him is post-comeback when he was already in his mid 30s. AT welter the guy was unreal and the record accomodates that notion. Armstrong had the best 3-4 year run in boxing history.

Greb's resume is hands-down the best in boxing history. One could rank the 3 below him at #1 with fair arguments, but I have a hard time seeing how you could eclipse what he did in the ring.

One thing I do find interesting though is Greb being ranked so high is more of a recent phenom (among the few hardcore boxing people left). In all of the major publications and among the old historians he was ranked highly but I don't think ANYONE ranked him even in their top 3 to ever fight, and only Herb Goldman made him his #1 middle ever. Was it that his style wasn't flashy? His alleged propensity to fight dirty?

Reading the contemporaries of Harry Greb, fighters, trainers, writers of Greb's day and after, only Stanley Ketchell was rated on a par with Greb...As there are no FILM of Greb fighting ,[aside from a
film i have showing Greb playing around with an old Phil Jack O'Brien], We have to rely on his amazing 300 bout career beating the best MW rival Mickey Walker, and all the great HOF LHs in his career...Remember we may never film a tornado wrecking havoc, but we can see the results of the tornado...This also applies to Harry Greb ... At his best , you couldn't outwork the amount of punches he landed, and you couldn't ko him...What MW could even attempt to duplicate Greb's amazing career against Geb's Light Heavyweight victims ? I have Greb,Langford, Ray Robinson,Henry Armstrong and
old Bob Fitzimmons [ a MW in a heavyweights torso] as the top 5 P4P fighters, because their great success against bigger and stronger men...That seperates the men from the boys, I believe...

[SaadOffTheDeck]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU7oJEdmP0A

[beaujack]

1. Greb
2. Robinson
3. Armstrong
4. Langford

Bingo, KC correct. It has to be Harry Greb...Greb had the greatest resume in history of going out of his weight class time and again...Greb was fearless and challenged everyone, fought everyone, and DUCKED no one...Just look at his victims, many HOFamers who outweighed Greb by 12-35 pounds...
Gene Tunney
Tommy Gibbons
Tommy Loughran
Jack Dillon
Battling Levinsky
Maxie Rosenbloom
Gunboat Smith
Kid Norfolk
Big Bill Brennan [spotted Brennan 35 pounds and beat Brennan 4 times nary losing a round ]
Willie Meehan[gave Dempsey fits]
Mickey Walker...Billy Miske
Harry Greb had 300 bouts in his hectic career...Except for his first 4 rd fight when he was stopped by a vastly experienced and heavier Joe Chip, Greb fought the next 280 or so bouts without ever being stopped again...In one amazing year the great Greb had FORTY FIVE fights winning every bout he fought...Won 45 out of 45 fights in ONE YEAR...Stunning...
AND lest we forget Greb in his last 5 or so years was BLIND in ONE ORBIT....Fighting great LHs and HWs with only one eye...Imagine the courage it required to enter the ring knowing that one blow on his remaining eye would render Greb BLIND and helpless in front of a crowd and his opponent...?
What raw courage and cojons Harry Greb had...
Jack Johnson after his retirement boxed with Greb and called Greb the fastest man he had ever seen...
Jack Dempsey who Greb gave fits in sparring sessions said , "hell Harry Greb is faster than Benny Leonard " ...Virtually all the great victims of Greb called him the best fighter they had ever seen...
As for Ray Robinson [the best fighter I saw ringside as a WW], Robby was tremendous in his great career, but he never truly tackled the top LHs like Ezzard Charles,nor Archie Moore, nor Harold Johnson, nor Lloyd Marshall, etc...The great Robinson knew his limitations and except for a very light punching Joey Maxim , Robinson never attempted going after the top big boys...
One other thing...One test I can think of who was better between Greb and Robinson "? I am certain that Harry Greb would have beaten any opponent of Ray Robinson's.. I know that Robinson could
NEVER beat the likes of a Tunney, Gibbons, Loughran, Maxie Rosenbloom, Jack Dillon, Billy Miske...
They were too big for Robinson, but for the fearless Harry Greb LHS and heavyweights he took them on and whipped them all...His likes we will never see again...

Stopped reading here.

An absolutely ludicrous claim.

Repectfully, if what I believe is so "ludicrous", which is your privelege to post, shoudn't you tell our readers what MW in history would have "bettered", Harry Greb's success against the top LHs I cite. ?
So easy to say "ludicrous " without backing it up I think...So what is "ludicrous" about my post. ?
My opinion is as valid as yours i believe....And I have seen Ray Robinson at his Welterweight prime.
And my dad saw Greb batter Tunney in 1922 MSG, and up to Ray Robinson...So I have a little
understanding of fighters prior to television...Cheers...

[Goodnight, Irene]

To say Greb is undisputedly, inarguably #1 amongst the company discussed here is so self-evident in its foolishness, it requires (nor deserves) no explanation.

[jezzamundo]

1. Greb
2. Robinson
3. Armstrong
4. Langford

Bingo, KC correct. It has to be Harry Greb...Greb had the greatest resume in history of going out of his weight class time and again...Greb was fearless and challenged everyone, fought everyone, and DUCKED no one...Just look at his victims, many HOFamers who outweighed Greb by 12-35 pounds...
Gene Tunney
Tommy Gibbons
Tommy Loughran
Jack Dillon
Battling Levinsky
Maxie Rosenbloom
Gunboat Smith
Kid Norfolk
Big Bill Brennan [spotted Brennan 35 pounds and beat Brennan 4 times nary losing a round ]
Willie Meehan[gave Dempsey fits]
Mickey Walker...Billy Miske
Harry Greb had 300 bouts in his hectic career...Except for his first 4 rd fight when he was stopped by a vastly experienced and heavier Joe Chip, Greb fought the next 280 or so bouts without ever being stopped again...In one amazing year the great Greb had FORTY FIVE fights winning every bout he fought...Won 45 out of 45 fights in ONE YEAR...Stunning...
AND lest we forget Greb in his last 5 or so years was BLIND in ONE ORBIT....Fighting great LHs and HWs with only one eye...Imagine the courage it required to enter the ring knowing that one blow on his remaining eye would render Greb BLIND and helpless in front of a crowd and his opponent...?
What raw courage and cojons Harry Greb had...
Jack Johnson after his retirement boxed with Greb and called Greb the fastest man he had ever seen...
Jack Dempsey who Greb gave fits in sparring sessions said , "hell Harry Greb is faster than Benny Leonard " ...Virtually all the great victims of Greb called him the best fighter they had ever seen...
As for Ray Robinson [the best fighter I saw ringside as a WW], Robby was tremendous in his great career, but he never truly tackled the top LHs like Ezzard Charles,nor Archie Moore, nor Harold Johnson, nor Lloyd Marshall, etc...The great Robinson knew his limitations and except for a very light punching Joey Maxim , Robinson never attempted going after the top big boys...
One other thing...One test I can think of who was better between Greb and Robinson "? I am certain that Harry Greb would have beaten any opponent of Ray Robinson's.. I know that Robinson could
NEVER beat the likes of a Tunney, Gibbons, Loughran, Maxie Rosenbloom, Jack Dillon, Billy Miske...
They were too big for Robinson, but for the fearless Harry Greb LHS and heavyweights he took them on and whipped them all...His likes we will never see again...

It's worth noting that Greb, while shorter than Robinson, was a naturally bigger and heavier man which I think allowed him to be competitive against fighters who would have been too big and hit too hard for Sugar Ray. Robinson was never really a natural middleweight until he was truly past his best. I think Robinson at his welterweight best was probably the closest to unbeatable as any fighter has ever been. That said, I agree that Greb's resume is more impressive and I would pick Greb to clearly outpoint Robinson if they met at middleweight. As for who rates higher all-time... I go back and forward, but Armstrong is my #3.

[beaujack]

To say Greb is undisputedly, inarguably #1 amongst the company discussed here is so self-evident in its foolishness, it requires (nor deserves) no explanation.

G, where did i use the term "indisputable or inarguably " in my post when my OPINION cites the resume of Harry Greb being the most impressive of the great fighters ? I am entitled to my opinion as well as you are, wouldn't you agree ?...If I post with passion, it is because of a lifetime of studying boxing, and I feel strongly about what a one eyed [last part of his career] Greb, was able to accomplish...And I may seem "ludicrous " to you, but many, many historians past and present agree with me, and I can live with that...