Henry Armstrong or Sugar Ray Robinson?: Who was the best?

[beaujack]

1. Greb
2. Robinson
3. Armstrong
4. Langford

Bingo, KC correct. It has to be Harry Greb...Greb had the greatest resume in history of going out of his weight class time and again...Greb was fearless and challenged everyone, fought everyone, and DUCKED no one...Just look at his victims, many HOFamers who outweighed Greb by 12-35 pounds...
Gene Tunney
Tommy Gibbons
Tommy Loughran
Jack Dillon
Battling Levinsky
Maxie Rosenbloom
Gunboat Smith
Kid Norfolk
Big Bill Brennan [spotted Brennan 35 pounds and beat Brennan 4 times nary losing a round ]
Willie Meehan[gave Dempsey fits]
Mickey Walker...Billy Miske
Harry Greb had 300 bouts in his hectic career...Except for his first 4 rd fight when he was stopped by a vastly experienced and heavier Joe Chip, Greb fought the next 280 or so bouts without ever being stopped again...In one amazing year the great Greb had FORTY FIVE fights winning every bout he fought...Won 45 out of 45 fights in ONE YEAR...Stunning...
AND lest we forget Greb in his last 5 or so years was BLIND in ONE ORBIT....Fighting great LHs and HWs with only one eye...Imagine the courage it required to enter the ring knowing that one blow on his remaining eye would render Greb BLIND and helpless in front of a crowd and his opponent...?
What raw courage and cojons Harry Greb had...
Jack Johnson after his retirement boxed with Greb and called Greb the fastest man he had ever seen...
Jack Dempsey who Greb gave fits in sparring sessions said , "hell Harry Greb is faster than Benny Leonard " ...Virtually all the great victims of Greb called him the best fighter they had ever seen...
As for Ray Robinson [the best fighter I saw ringside as a WW], Robby was tremendous in his great career, but he never truly tackled the top LHs like Ezzard Charles,nor Archie Moore, nor Harold Johnson, nor Lloyd Marshall, etc...The great Robinson knew his limitations and except for a very light punching Joey Maxim , Robinson never attempted going after the top big boys...
One other thing...One test I can think of who was better between Greb and Robinson "? I am certain that Harry Greb would have beaten any opponent of Ray Robinson's.. I know that Robinson could
NEVER beat the likes of a Tunney, Gibbons, Loughran, Maxie Rosenbloom, Jack Dillon, Billy Miske...
They were too big for Robinson, but for the fearless Harry Greb LHS and heavyweights he took them on and whipped them all...His likes we will never see again...

It's worth noting that Greb, while shorter than Robinson, was a naturally bigger and heavier man which I think allowed him to be competitive against fighters who would have been too big and hit too hard for Sugar Ray. Robinson was never really a natural middleweight until he was truly past his best. I think Robinson at his welterweight best was probably the closest to unbeatable as any fighter has ever been. That said, I agree that Greb's resume is more impressive and I would pick Greb to clearly outpoint Robinson if they met at middleweight. As for who rates higher all-time... I go back and forward, but Armstrong is my #3.

Jezz, there is no one who has a higher estimate of Ray Robinson than I have ,as I saw the great Robby in his prime as a WW several times...Greatest all around fighter of all... But a MW at 154 pounds and a MW at 160 pounds is still a middleweight. Robinson as a WW was about 5ft11" and
always had a reach advantage over just about every one of his opponents...As a MW Robinson
and Harry Greb were in the SAME WEIGHT division ,below 160 pounds...Yes Greb was stockier than Robinson, but they were BOTH middleweights...In the old 8 division days fighters were MWs from 147pounds til 160 pounds MW limit..For example Stanley Ketchel was a natural 154 pound MW,but still flattened all his middleweight opponents who outweighed Ketchel by 5 or so pounds...
For example just before the Greb /Mickey Walker bout in 1925 , Greb was past his peak and a few pounds overweight...He before the fight ,ran around Central Park in NY twice , and had nothing to eat or drink except cheap orange punch, and came into the bout at 158 pounds...And weak at this weight making , the faded Greb kicked the hell out of the young and strong Toy Bulldog... One year later Greb would be dead...So J Greb was stockier, whilst Robinson had a big height and reach advantage
but BOTH were middleweights...

[dempseyfire]

Beujack, to 2 of your points:

1) Yes there is no film of Greb, but the old timers saw him live, and it still remains that practically none of them ranked him as the best to ever fight. I myself do, but I do find it very intriguing that his contemporaries, while thinking him an ATG fighter, did not hold in as high esteem as they later did Robinson and Armstrong . . even Louis.

2) I think you are being way too hard on Robinson for not fighting light HWs. Greb was a naturally bigger man than Robinson. Robinson was tall at 5'11 but in his mid 20s was fighting at 147. Greb by that time was regularly fighting at 165-170. Yes he could drain down to 158 but the guy was more a natural super middle, whereas Robinson at his peak was a big welterweight.

[keithmoonhangover]

Beujack, to 2 of your points:

1) Yes there is no film of Greb, but the old timers saw him live, and it still remains that practically none of them ranked him as the best to ever fight. I myself do, but I do find it very intriguing that his contemporaries, while thinking him an ATG fighter, did not hold in as high esteem as they later did Robinson and Armstrong . . even Louis.

2) I think you are being way too hard on Robinson for not fighting light HWs. Greb was a naturally bigger man than Robinson. Robinson was tall at 5'11 but in his mid 20s was fighting at 147. Greb by that time was regularly fighting at 165-170. Yes he could drain down to 158 but the guy was more a natural super middle, whereas Robinson at his peak was a big welterweight.

Nat Fleischer saw Ketchel and Greb fight and he rated Ketchel above Greb as a middleweight.

[MEISINGER]

I disagree. I have Robinson at #4 all-time, and Armstrong is indeed my all-time #1. Here is a guy so unprecedented, he changed the rules of Boxing. Thats unreal.

There is too much a mythology built around certain men, where at some point a fair share of people are just parroting what they hear. Thats how you get Chavez ending up with 90% of votes for best Mexican ever, Duran and Ali doing the same for best Light and Heavy ever. Skewed and misleading results.

sorry didn't read past this before commenting

[Syntax Error]

I've always said Henry, but I 'd never argue with anyone that said it was Sugar Ray.

[Goodnight, Irene]

To say Greb is undisputedly, inarguably #1 amongst the company discussed here is so self-evident in its foolishness, it requires (nor deserves) no explanation.

G, where did i use the term "indisputable or inarguably " in my post when my OPINION cites the resume of Harry Greb being the most impressive of the great fighters ? I am entitled to my opinion as well as you are, wouldn't you agree ?...If I post with passion, it is because of a lifetime of studying boxing, and I feel strongly about what a one eyed [last part of his career] Greb, was able to accomplish...And I may seem "ludicrous " to you, but many, many historians past and present agree with me, and I can live with that...

"It has to be Harry Greb..."

No historian or fan is going to agree with you Greb has to be #1.

[BoxBuzz]

Beujack, to 2 of your points:

1) Yes there is no film of Greb, but the old timers saw him live, and it still remains that practically none of them ranked him as the best to ever fight. I myself do, but I do find it very intriguing that his contemporaries, while thinking him an ATG fighter, did not hold in as high esteem as they later did Robinson and Armstrong . . even Louis.

You have quantified very well, why I have remained stoic in the face of the "Grebmania" that Klompton seems determined to stir up on the board. I appreciate his advocacy on the subject, and remain open minded, and your opinion is respected on this matter. But your words here, and the lack of any recording of him in action will likely keep me from joining those who place Greb at the top or "easily" in the top five. I don't find it as "intriguing" as I find it "instructive" toward caution in not over rating his W/L record.

I have also not read as much as others on this, so I've not been in a position to qualify, quantify and rationalize the bulk of opinion that was written at the time, and remains out there and available.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I also believe that the great Henry Armstrong, to me, was/is the greatest fighter pound per pound of all-time.

I got the great Sugar Ray Robinson at #2.

Armstrong to me, beat more hall of fame boxers and world champions and what he did in one year alone, is by far better than lots of fighters whole careers. Especially the year 1937, where he won 27 in a row by KO and from 1936 through 1940, he had a record of 57-1 and already won 3 titles in 3 different weight classes? Amazing.

He was an incredible and amazing fighter!

Youd think such a fighter would stand a better-than-even chance of not getting his ears boxed in by Ken Buchanan, but...

Or losing "big time" to Sugar Ray Leonard . . .

Is that such a surprise? Hes Ismael Laguna's play-thing & has his hands full beating Saoul Mamby D

[jezzamundo]

Bingo, KC correct. It has to be Harry Greb...Greb had the greatest resume in history of going out of his weight class time and again...Greb was fearless and challenged everyone, fought everyone, and DUCKED no one...Just look at his victims, many HOFamers who outweighed Greb by 12-35 pounds...
Gene Tunney
Tommy Gibbons
Tommy Loughran
Jack Dillon
Battling Levinsky
Maxie Rosenbloom
Gunboat Smith
Kid Norfolk
Big Bill Brennan [spotted Brennan 35 pounds and beat Brennan 4 times nary losing a round ]
Willie Meehan[gave Dempsey fits]
Mickey Walker...Billy Miske
Harry Greb had 300 bouts in his hectic career...Except for his first 4 rd fight when he was stopped by a vastly experienced and heavier Joe Chip, Greb fought the next 280 or so bouts without ever being stopped again...In one amazing year the great Greb had FORTY FIVE fights winning every bout he fought...Won 45 out of 45 fights in ONE YEAR...Stunning...
AND lest we forget Greb in his last 5 or so years was BLIND in ONE ORBIT....Fighting great LHs and HWs with only one eye...Imagine the courage it required to enter the ring knowing that one blow on his remaining eye would render Greb BLIND and helpless in front of a crowd and his opponent...?
What raw courage and cojons Harry Greb had...
Jack Johnson after his retirement boxed with Greb and called Greb the fastest man he had ever seen...
Jack Dempsey who Greb gave fits in sparring sessions said , "hell Harry Greb is faster than Benny Leonard " ...Virtually all the great victims of Greb called him the best fighter they had ever seen...
As for Ray Robinson [the best fighter I saw ringside as a WW], Robby was tremendous in his great career, but he never truly tackled the top LHs like Ezzard Charles,nor Archie Moore, nor Harold Johnson, nor Lloyd Marshall, etc...The great Robinson knew his limitations and except for a very light punching Joey Maxim , Robinson never attempted going after the top big boys...
One other thing...One test I can think of who was better between Greb and Robinson "? I am certain that Harry Greb would have beaten any opponent of Ray Robinson's.. I know that Robinson could
NEVER beat the likes of a Tunney, Gibbons, Loughran, Maxie Rosenbloom, Jack Dillon, Billy Miske...
They were too big for Robinson, but for the fearless Harry Greb LHS and heavyweights he took them on and whipped them all...His likes we will never see again...

It's worth noting that Greb, while shorter than Robinson, was a naturally bigger and heavier man which I think allowed him to be competitive against fighters who would have been too big and hit too hard for Sugar Ray. Robinson was never really a natural middleweight until he was truly past his best. I think Robinson at his welterweight best was probably the closest to unbeatable as any fighter has ever been. That said, I agree that Greb's resume is more impressive and I would pick Greb to clearly outpoint Robinson if they met at middleweight. As for who rates higher all-time... I go back and forward, but Armstrong is my #3.

Jezz, there is no one who has a higher estimate of Ray Robinson than I have ,as I saw the great Robby in his prime as a WW several times...Greatest all around fighter of all... But a MW at 154 pounds and a MW at 160 pounds is still a middleweight. Robinson as a WW was about 5ft11" and
always had a reach advantage over just about every one of his opponents...As a MW Robinson
and Harry Greb were in the SAME WEIGHT division ,below 160 pounds...Yes Greb was stockier than Robinson, but they were BOTH middleweights...In the old 8 division days fighters were MWs from 147pounds til 160 pounds MW limit..For example Stanley Ketchel was a natural 154 pound MW,but still flattened all his middleweight opponents who outweighed Ketchel by 5 or so pounds...
For example just before the Greb /Mickey Walker bout in 1925 , Greb was past his peak and a few pounds overweight...He before the fight ,ran around Central Park in NY twice , and had nothing to eat or drink except cheap orange punch, and came into the bout at 158 pounds...And weak at this weight making , the faded Greb kicked the hell out of the young and strong Toy Bulldog... One year later Greb would be dead...So J Greb was stockier, whilst Robinson had a big height and reach advantage
but BOTH were middleweights...

I agree - both middleweights, but Greb was still the naturally bigger, heavier man and his build and strength allowed for him to fight at higher weights than Robinson. Hell, when SRR fought Joey Maxim he was 158lb and I'm certain he wouldn't have drained when he had a spare 17lb to the division's maximum. Height, reach and skill completely aside, I think when we talk about Robinson and Greb as middleweights, it has to be in the same vein as talking about Floyd Mayweather and Sugar Ray Leonard as welterweights. Both excellent fighters at the weight, but one man is a natural at the division, while the other had to grow his way into it. Also keep in mind that Robinson beating LaMotta could be viewed in a similar (although I agree, less impressive) light as Greb beating Tunney.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Good analogy, Jezz. I agree.

[beaujack]

It's worth noting that Greb, while shorter than Robinson, was a naturally bigger and heavier man which I think allowed him to be competitive against fighters who would have been too big and hit too hard for Sugar Ray. Robinson was never really a natural middleweight until he was truly past his best. I think Robinson at his welterweight best was probably the closest to unbeatable as any fighter has ever been. That said, I agree that Greb's resume is more impressive and I would pick Greb to clearly outpoint Robinson if they met at middleweight. As for who rates higher all-time... I go back and forward, but Armstrong is my #3.

Jezz, there is no one who has a higher estimate of Ray Robinson than I have ,as I saw the great Robby in his prime as a WW several times...Greatest all around fighter of all... But a MW at 154 pounds and a MW at 160 pounds is still a middleweight. Robinson as a WW was about 5ft11" and
always had a reach advantage over just about every one of his opponents...As a MW Robinson
and Harry Greb were in the SAME WEIGHT division ,below 160 pounds...Yes Greb was stockier than Robinson, but they were BOTH middleweights...In the old 8 division days fighters were MWs from 147pounds til 160 pounds MW limit..For example Stanley Ketchel was a natural 154 pound MW,but still flattened all his middleweight opponents who outweighed Ketchel by 5 or so pounds...
For example just before the Greb /Mickey Walker bout in 1925 , Greb was past his peak and a few pounds overweight...He before the fight ,ran around Central Park in NY twice , and had nothing to eat or drink except cheap orange punch, and came into the bout at 158 pounds...And weak at this weight making , the faded Greb kicked the hell out of the young and strong Toy Bulldog... One year later Greb would be dead...So J Greb was stockier, whilst Robinson had a big height and reach advantage
but BOTH were middleweights...

I agree - both middleweights, but Greb was still the naturally bigger, heavier man and his build and strength allowed for him to fight at higher weights than Robinson. Hell, when SRR fought Joey Maxim he was 158lb and I'm certain he wouldn't have drained when he had a spare 17lb to the division's maximum. Height, reach and skill completely aside, I think when we talk about Robinson and Greb as middleweights, it has to be in the same vein as talking about Floyd Mayweather and Sugar Ray Leonard as welterweights. Both excellent fighters at the weight, but one man is a natural at the division, while the other had to grow his way into it. Also keep in mind that Robinson beating LaMotta could be viewed in a similar (although I agree, less impressive) light as Greb beating Tunney.

Jezz, not to beat this subject to death, but a MW is a MW regardless of a few pounds otherwise every fighter would have an asterik on his winning saying Joe Blow won but he was 160 pounds whilst
Jack Black though losing weighed 154 pounds ! It Never happened before, as it doesn't now...The plain and simple fact is Harry Greb gave away a greater amount of weight per bout than Ray Robinson
in their careers...I have heard the argument that Robinson at close to 6 ft in height most always had an advantage in height and reach...This also doesn't fly in rankings...Boxing is catargorized in 8 weight divisions, allowing up to 10-15 pounds for fighters to come into a bout at their most comfortable weight...
So I love Robinson tremendously as a great all around boxer-puncher never surpassed, but Harry Greb had UNIQUE qualities that allowed him to conquer just about all his opponents ,many HOFamers
up to two divisions past his own...Don't take my word J, just look at the record...

[Crease]

Sugar Rar Robinson.

To my mind he's just the best fighter that we have ever had. And probably the most complete.

[Techno89]

Sugar Ray Robinson

[dempseyfire]

Jezz, there is no one who has a higher estimate of Ray Robinson than I have ,as I saw the great Robby in his prime as a WW several times...Greatest all around fighter of all... But a MW at 154 pounds and a MW at 160 pounds is still a middleweight. Robinson as a WW was about 5ft11" and
always had a reach advantage over just about every one of his opponents...As a MW Robinson
and Harry Greb were in the SAME WEIGHT division ,below 160 pounds...Yes Greb was stockier than Robinson, but they were BOTH middleweights...In the old 8 division days fighters were MWs from 147pounds til 160 pounds MW limit..For example Stanley Ketchel was a natural 154 pound MW,but still flattened all his middleweight opponents who outweighed Ketchel by 5 or so pounds...
For example just before the Greb /Mickey Walker bout in 1925 , Greb was past his peak and a few pounds overweight...He before the fight ,ran around Central Park in NY twice , and had nothing to eat or drink except cheap orange punch, and came into the bout at 158 pounds...And weak at this weight making , the faded Greb kicked the hell out of the young and strong Toy Bulldog... One year later Greb would be dead...So J Greb was stockier, whilst Robinson had a big height and reach advantage
but BOTH were middleweights...

I agree - both middleweights, but Greb was still the naturally bigger, heavier man and his build and strength allowed for him to fight at higher weights than Robinson. Hell, when SRR fought Joey Maxim he was 158lb and I'm certain he wouldn't have drained when he had a spare 17lb to the division's maximum. Height, reach and skill completely aside, I think when we talk about Robinson and Greb as middleweights, it has to be in the same vein as talking about Floyd Mayweather and Sugar Ray Leonard as welterweights. Both excellent fighters at the weight, but one man is a natural at the division, while the other had to grow his way into it. Also keep in mind that Robinson beating LaMotta could be viewed in a similar (although I agree, less impressive) light as Greb beating Tunney.

Jezz, not to beat this subject to death, but a MW is a MW regardless of a few pounds otherwise every fighter would have an asterik on his winning saying Joe Blow won but he was 160 pounds whilst
Jack Black though losing weighed 154 pounds ! It Never happened before, as it doesn't now...The plain and simple fact is Harry Greb gave away a greater amount of weight per bout than Ray Robinson
in their careers...I have heard the argument that Robinson at close to 6 ft in height most always had an advantage in height and reach...This also doesn't fly in rankings...Boxing is catargorized in 8 weight divisions, allowing up to 10-15 pounds for fighters to come into a bout at their most comfortable weight...
So I love Robinson tremendously as a great all around boxer-puncher never surpassed, but Harry Greb had UNIQUE qualities that allowed him to conquer just about all his opponents ,many HOFamers
up to two divisions past his own...Don't take my word J, just look at the record...

You have to factor in their natural size. Is Oscar Dela Hoya at 160 lbs the same size as 'middleweight' Carlos Monzon? No . . .Oscar is clearly the smaller man regardless of weight.

[elmersalsa]

Sugar Rar Robinson.

To my mind he's just the best fighter that we have ever had. And probably the most complete.

I have seen better complete fighters than the great Sugar Ray Robinson

[Goodnight, Irene]

Like a hamster on a wheel D

['Frilla]

Sugar Rar Robinson.

To my mind he's just the best fighter that we have ever had. And probably the most complete.

I have seen better complete fighters than the great Sugar Ray Robinson

How many? and who?

[elmersalsa]

Sugar Rar Robinson.

To my mind he's just the best fighter that we have ever had. And probably the most complete.

I have seen better complete fighters than the great Sugar Ray Robinson

How many? and who?

I could name you about eight or seven:
Marvin Hagler
Eusebio Pedroza
Sugar Ray Leonard
Ezzard Charles
Roberto Duran
Salvador Sanchez
Ismael Laguna
Eder Jofre

['Frilla]

I have seen better complete fighters than the great Sugar Ray Robinson

How many? and who?

I could name you about eight or seven:
Marvin Hagler
Eusebio Pedroza
Sugar Ray Leonard
Ezzard Charles
Roberto Duran
Salvador Sanchez
Ismael Laguna
Eder Jofre

All great fighters mate, but imo WW SRR is the G.O.A.T

[Tomasino]

I have seen better complete fighters than the great Sugar Ray Robinson

How many? and who?

I could name you about eight or seven:
Marvin Hagler
Eusebio Pedroza
Sugar Ray Leonard
Ezzard Charles
Roberto Duran
Salvador Sanchez
Ismael Laguna
Eder Jofre

Thats eight just so you know.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Pedroza more complete than Robinson is the dumbest of a very dumb list, and so my favourite D

[elmersalsa]

Pedroza more complete than Robinson is the dumbest of a very dumb list, and so my favourite D

Every one has their own opinion... Why can't you not respect mine? What's wrong with saying that the great Eusebio Pedroza was more complete as a fighter than the great Sugar Ray Robinson? I do not see nothing wrong with that sir. Pedroza was a hell of a champion. Robinson is more accomplished, but Pedroza to me, a great champion in his own right, more complete and technically equipped...A complete fighter that Pedroza was.

[Goodnight, Irene]

You still havent specified which skills were around in the 70's, but not the 30's or 40's?

[Ambling Alp]

I am picking Robinson over Armstrong. Robinson beat even more quality opponents, and lost less often. Longevity should also be considered. Robinson was great for a far longer period of time.

[raylawpc]

What's wrong with saying that the great Eusebio Pedroza was more complete as a fighter than the great Sugar Ray Robinson?

Two things: Robinson had superior firepower and a better chin. But Pedroza did not exceed Robinson in any part of the game.

Robinson was one of the most complete fighter that's ever lived, IMO.