Classic American West Coast Boxing

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Frankie Campos was one of two brothers, Juan Luis been the other one fighting out of the Johnny Forbes stable.

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I was at this outdoor fight, Martinez gave the Golden Boy a boxing lesson

[Cholo]

I was at this outdoor fight, Martinez gave the Golden Boy a boxing lesson

Gilmore Field, tough fight for the 'Golden Boy' I don't think Art got in the best of shape for some of his fights?.

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Art Aragon (L) v Vince Martinez, July,1.1954, Gilmore Field.

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Gilmore Field, tough fight for the 'Golden Boy' I don't think Art got in the best of shape for some of his fights?.

Paul, Art used to train on women... But having said that, the truth is that Art had trouble with "boxers". Art need guys to stand in front of him so that he could knock their block off. Art was at his best when a fighter wanted to trade with him, not too many could do that and beat him.

[raylawpc]

Gilmore Field, tough fight for the 'Golden Boy' I don't think Art got in the best of shape for some of his fights?.

Paul, Art used to train on women... But having said that, the truth is that Art had trouble with "boxers". Art need guys to stand in front of him so that he could knock their block off. Art was at his best when a fighter wanted to trade with him, not too many could do that and beat him.

Basilio could. But Carmen was a special guy.

[Cholo]

Gilmore Field, tough fight for the 'Golden Boy' I don't think Art got in the best of shape for some of his fights?.

Paul, Art used to train on women... But having said that, the truth is that Art had trouble with "boxers". Art need guys to stand in front of him so that he could knock their block off. Art was at his best when a fighter wanted to trade with him, not too many could do that and beat him.

Basilio could. But Carmen was a special guy.

Basilio was a middleweight, and Art's best days were behind him.

[CNorkusJr]

That was one of the reasons, but another reason and maybe a more important one was that he went on radio and said he wasn't Mexican. And you just can't say that in LA if you do happen to be Mexican....But I think Art knew what he was doing and that was to draw all the Mexicans in to see him get beat and since in his hay days he always fought for a percentage of the gate, he would usually get 27%. So he didn't mind having all the Mexican fans scream for his blood because next day he would need a wheelbarrow to carry his money to the bank.

Oh yes, I forgot about that! Didn't he claim that he was Greek?

He said he was Italian

Just caught up on your conversation: Frank, your right about the bottom line with pro fighters- the gate attendance and the TV money was the most important thing on their minds. My father often said that the "bottom line for a fighter was never STINK out the joint". When you read into that, what he meant was the obvious-if you put on a good show-it was sure to be followed up with another Main Event fight, hopefully on TV, or just fighting a top fighter in a big venue with hopefully many tickets to sell.
My father often carried a wad of tickets with him in his pockets or managers pockets and after training, go down to the westside docks in Manhattan, (which was heavily Irish or Italian). My father had Charley MURPHY Norkus stitched onto his robe for all to see including TV cameras, which brought in 100's if not 1,000's more into the gate for his fight. Hint: We are not Irish, though he told everyone that was his mother's maiden name, which it wasnt. It was Christensen with Danish roots.
But the Irish flooded the fights, with the Italians too rooting for my dad, except if your name is LaStarza or Nardico.

In heavily Polish populated Cleveland, my father's manager told everyone that my father was descended from Polish Royalty which got numerous Polish halls and societies honoring my father pre-fight nights there. Needless to say they my father and manager stuffed their pockets with tickets to those dinners and with LaStarza doing the same on his side of town resulted in a sold out Cleveland Arena 11,000 plus for the fight card. It helped that Rocky Castellani was the 10 Rd undercard that night too and ON NATIONAL TV which was a reason that fights were losing more and more live gates attendance in those days. It helped that some of the gate was going for a Christmas Childrens Society Charity that night too.

I think Art Aragon played the game correctly-getting more people to his fights, but my father would beg to differ with him on the reasoning-usually you want fans to root for you. He cetainly had the talent for it. But if you think about it, Wrestlers used the same ploy also- the good played off of the the bad, and people showed up to see the bad get his ass kicked. Who cares-the ticket was sold-the bottom line.
But you didnt want to stink the joint out- you wanted to be used again by the promoters and IBC to be able to fight again and get paid big.
Thats where close fights, very close fights, could end up making rematches and trilogies a very profitable deal all around.

[raylawpc]

Paul, Art used to train on women... But having said that, the truth is that Art had trouble with "boxers". Art need guys to stand in front of him so that he could knock their block off. Art was at his best when a fighter wanted to trade with him, not too many could do that and beat him.

Basilio could. But Carmen was a special guy.

Basilio was a middleweight, and Art's best days were behind him.

As I posted in another Forum in which I wrote the same thing, "Maybe. I didn't mean it as a put down of Aragon. Carmen was a very special fighter, IMO. Based on everything I've read about Aragon, and the limited footage I've seen of him, only a special fighter could stand toe-to-toe with Art Aragon. I mean that as a compliment, not a put down."

I'll add that I see Carmen as more of an overstuffed welterweight than a true middleweight when he won the title from Robinson.

[raylawpc]

Oh yes, I forgot about that! Didn't he claim that he was Greek?

He said he was Italian

Just caught up on your conversation: Frank, your right about the bottom line with pro fighters- the gate attendance and the TV money was the most important thing on their minds. My father often said that the "bottom line for a fighter was never STINK out the joint". When you read into that, what he meant was the obvious-if you put on a good show-it was sure to be followed up with another Main Event fight, hopefully on TV, or just fighting a top fighter in a big venue with hopefully many tickets to sell.
My father often carried a wad of tickets with him in his pockets or managers pockets and after training, go down to the westside docks in Manhattan, (which was heavily Irish or Italian). My father had Charley MURPHY Norkus stitched onto his robe for all to see including TV cameras, which brought in 100's if not 1,000's more into the gate for his fight. Hint: We are not Irish, though he told everyone that was his mother's maiden name, which it wasnt. It was Christensen with Danish roots.
But the Irish flooded the fights, with the Italians too rooting for my dad, except if your name is LaStarza or Nardico.

In heavily Polish populated Cleveland, my father's manager told everyone that my father was descended from Polish Royalty which got numerous Polish halls and societies honoring my father pre-fight nights there. Needless to say they my father and manager stuffed their pockets with tickets to those dinners and with LaStarza doing the same on his side of town resulted in a sold out Cleveland Arena 11,000 plus for the fight card. It helped that Rocky Castellani was the 10 Rd undercard that night too and ON NATIONAL TV which was a reason that fights were losing more and more live gates attendance in those days. It helped that some of the gate was going for a Christmas Childrens Society Charity that night too.

I think Art Aragon played the game correctly-getting more people to his fights, but my father would beg to differ with him on the reasoning-usually you want fans to root for you. He cetainly had the talent for it. But if you think about it, Wrestlers used the same ploy also- the good played off of the the bad, and people showed up to see the bad get his ass kicked. Who cares-the ticket was sold-the bottom line.
But you didnt want to stink the joint out- you wanted to be used again by the promoters and IBC to be able to fight again and get paid big.
Thats where close fights, very close fights, could end up making rematches and trilogies a very profitable deal all around.

Can't blame your Dad for saying he was of Irish instead of Danish descent. Who would ever want to admit they were Danish? (Just kidding!! There is an old rivalry between Danes and Swedes dating back to the 16th century.)

Your observations brought to mind a story I read once about Muhammad Ali/Cassius Clay. Not long after he turned pro, Cassius came on a local talk show somewhere for an interview. It was a typical interview, and young Cassius was nice and polite, ("Yes sir, Mr. . . ."; "No sir, Mr. . . .") talking about how much respect he had for his opponent, that he would be fortunate to win, etc. Following young Cassius was the Wrestler Gorgeous George. His tact was different. He bragged about what he was going to do to his opponent and how he was the greatest wrestler in the world. How he was too pretty to lose to the Bum he was wrestling. The next night, Cassius (who had been fighting before a half-full arenas and polite applause) went to the wrestling matches. He saw a sold-out arena of people who went absolutely nuts when Gorgeous George climbed into the ring, all wanting AND PAYING to see the Gorgeous One get killed. Young Cassius thought . . . "This is a g o o o o o d idea!" And the self-proclaimed Greatest - the Louisville Lip - was born . . .

[CNorkusJr]

d

[CNorkusJr]

He said he was Italian

Just caught up on your conversation: Frank, your right about the bottom line with pro fighters- the gate attendance and the TV money was the most important thing on their minds. My father often said that the "bottom line for a fighter was never STINK out the joint". When you read into that, what he meant was the obvious-if you put on a good show-it was sure to be followed up with another Main Event fight, hopefully on TV, or just fighting a top fighter in a big venue with hopefully many tickets to sell.
My father often carried a wad of tickets with him in his pockets or managers pockets and after training, go down to the westside docks in Manhattan, (which was heavily Irish or Italian). My father had Charley MURPHY Norkus stitched onto his robe for all to see including TV cameras, which brought in 100's if not 1,000's more into the gate for his fight. Hint: We are not Irish, though he told everyone that was his mother's maiden name, which it wasnt. It was Christensen with Danish roots.
But the Irish flooded the fights, with the Italians too rooting for my dad, except if your name is LaStarza or Nardico.

In heavily Polish populated Cleveland, my father's manager told everyone that my father was descended from Polish Royalty which got numerous Polish halls and societies honoring my father pre-fight nights there. Needless to say they my father and manager stuffed their pockets with tickets to those dinners and with LaStarza doing the same on his side of town resulted in a sold out Cleveland Arena 11,000 plus for the fight card. It helped that Rocky Castellani was the 10 Rd undercard that night too and ON NATIONAL TV which was a reason that fights were losing more and more live gates attendance in those days. It helped that some of the gate was going for a Christmas Childrens Society Charity that night too.

I think Art Aragon played the game correctly-getting more people to his fights, but my father would beg to differ with him on the reasoning-usually you want fans to root for you. He cetainly had the talent for it. But if you think about it, Wrestlers used the same ploy also- the good played off of the the bad, and people showed up to see the bad get his ass kicked. Who cares-the ticket was sold-the bottom line.
But you didnt want to stink the joint out- you wanted to be used again by the promoters and IBC to be able to fight again and get paid big.
Thats where close fights, very close fights, could end up making rematches and trilogies a very profitable deal all around.

Can't blame your Dad for saying he was of Irish instead of Danish descent. Who would ever want to admit they were Danish? (Just kidding!! There is an old rivalry between Danes and Swedes dating back to the 16th century.)

Your observations brought to mind a story I read once about Muhammad Ali/Cassius Clay. Not long after he turned pro, Cassius came on a local talk show somewhere for an interview. It was a typical interview, and young Cassius was nice and polite, ("Yes sir, Mr. . . ."; "No sir, Mr. . . .") talking about how much respect he had for his opponent, that he would be fortunate to win, etc. Following young Cassius was the Wrestler Gorgeous George. His tact was different. He bragged about what he was going to do to his opponent and how he was the greatest wrestler in the world. How he was too pretty to lose to the Bum he was wrestling. The next night, Cassius (who had been fighting before a half-full arenas and polite applause) went to the wrestling matches. He saw a sold-out arena of people who went absolutely nuts when Gorgeous George climbed into the ring, all wanting AND PAYING to see the Gorgeous One get killed. Young Cassius thought . . . "This is a g o o o o o d idea!" And the self-proclaimed Greatest - the Louisville Lip - was born . . .

Norkus was believed to been all German/Danish until 2 years ago, when a distant relative proved through Ancestry.com documents that showed my fathers grandfather started out in Sauliulia (Lithuiania/Polish border town) then travelled to Alsace Lorraine, then to US in mid-late 1800's. He married a French girl from Alsace Lorraine-they had my dad's father here and he married a Danish US born "Christensen". So the chance of Polish Royalty is possibly there and was unbenownst to my father all this time LOL LOL.Note: Last year fighter Pawel Wolak was feted at NJ Boxing HOF induction. Talking to him showed that he and Tomas Adamek both have relatives in todays Sauliulia.

Good Story Tom. Every show has to have a promotional value added to it to be successful. No matter what field you are in- The circus, hockey,bobblehead night baseball etc etc
. The promoters, event mgrs,the stadium employees need to get paid. Fighters were a tough breed back in their time, but you do not the shenanigans that are used today back then. Many relied on their skills in the ring to draw people out to the fights. With no TV, everyone relied on papers to bring them the news. Word of mouth was then used pretty good too. Promoters quickly paid the press to get good publicity and to add "pizazz" to the fights to draw future interest in the fighters future fights.
People who attended the fights spread the word. One set of lips to the next,to the next ,to the next, and the next thing you know you had a titanic brawl of epic proportions.

With TV it was laid out to bare in front of you. Unless you had a gimmick or something, your skills were very much scrutinized. My father became a head hunting boxer to KO opponents. At a cost of getting hit himself, his fights were mainly brawls that people wanted to go see. Some one was going down and lets face it, boxing fans, like some racing car fans want to see the crash when it happens. The thing was- TV brought an end to live crowds unless it was a Championship or mega star card.

So, Pay theatre came in the fifties- and to sell tickets, you needed promotion, the birth of boxing shenanigans began (thats what I call it)- early sixties, and Cassius Clay opened up a new world to that. Especially the dressings down of Joe Frazier- either you loved him or hated him-he sold tickets for his rope-a-dope.
Now-a-days Derek Chesora takes things to a disgusting level along with this Arreola guy. No need for that and many fighters are spinning in their graves over it, but if it sells boxing tickets, dont put nothing past these lunkheads. By the way, Joe Dwyer recently said at a Ring 8 meeting that Chesora has not been dealt with yet. His suspension is just the tip of the iceberg.

One last observation I have- Interest in boxing has not ebbed- only the bouts we see on Tv dont quite fill our expectations like they once did (if you were around long enough to remember the Sat afternoons spent with Arguello, Pryor,Baltazar,Chacon, etc etc).(It cetainly must be worse if you were remembering the 50's and 60's) Oh sure, every now and then you get a good fight in. So boxing might not get the new blood in that it needs to sustain hence the birth of MMA for todays kids.Unless you want to plunk 50-60 dollars down to see mediocre Championships things seem to get lost in the translation.
Watching Arturro Gatti was a pleasure. A throwback in style and he kept coming at you. If somehow boxing can muster up two dozen fighters like him and put 3 in each weight class-you have a very viable product and huge interest again in boxing.Maybe even a shot for boxing on mainstream TV like ABC or NBC, but that too is a pipe dream I have from now and then. Sorry for my sentimental rant.

Can anyone here tell me how much a MMA Champion fighter makes for his fights (I know they do alot of PPV shows) ? and how many times a year that same fighter fights ?
In New York here, we dont have MMA boxing, but it is carried on TV here on PPV so the fans can see it if they want. Personally-I have no interest whatsoever, but curious if the MMA is making the same money as boxers, or more, so that young fighting talent goes that way, not boxings way.

[Chuck1052]

I see these Knockout Magazine covers and I can understand why I feel cheated when I watch boxing now days.

I grew up watching boxing in the later 1940s-early ‘50s. It was an era when topnotch prospects fought each other on the under cards and top ranked fighters fought each other in the main events at the Olympic and the Hollywood Legion and other Southern California venues. Case in point, the Kenny Davis v Al Cruz fight, here we had two of the top amateur fighters and top pro prospects of their era fighting each other to see which one would move up the ladder of their chosen profession. Sometime we would have a winner and a loser, sometime a fight would ended up a draw, and when it did there would be a rematch.

That is why, in my opinion, the greatest fighters in the sports history ca...me from those years. Not saying we don’t have great fighters now days, we do, but we had more of them back in those bygone years

This is not a put-down on to-days fighters they fight who their promoters pick. Now days managers don’t play an important part as they once did back in those years. When a fighter sign up with a promoter it’s the promoter calling the shot and said promoter is just concern with the bottom line.

My rant for the day on today’s boxing.

Frank- When I was looking at old newspapers on micro-film, I was amazed that Fidel LaBarba and Jimmy McLarnin fought each other three times during the early part of their respective professional boxing careers. They drew very good crowds at the Vernon Arena, so I assume that their purses were very good. Pop Foster, McLarnin's manager, was known to watch his charge like a mother hen. George Blake, LaBarba's manager, was also highly regarded. Moreover, both LaBarba and McLarnin went on to have great careers.

- Chuck Johnston

[bennie]

Terry Spinks has died, the 1956 Olympic flyweight champion.

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Knockout magazine 1954

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Art Aragon with Jane Russell and Marilyn Monroe...1955

[Cholo]

Art Aragon with Jane Russell and Marilyn Monroe...1955

Aragon quickly became a fixture on the nightclub scene, palling around with Bob Hope, golfing with Mickey Rooney and frequenting the Coconut Grove, Mocambo and Brown Derby, often with a well-known starlet. "I knew Jane Russell pretty good and when she was doing Gentlemen Prefer Blondes she told me to go to Marilyn's dressing room and introduce myself. Bein' a dumb fighter I just opened the door and there she was, sitting in a chair, naked. Nothing on. Of course, like a schmuck, I covered my eyes but she just giggled and put a robe on. I was more embarrassed then she was. Even though I covered my eyes pretty quick, I'll never forget that, Seeing Marilyn Monroe naked."

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Art Aragon and a former wife re-marry. When asked what was the best thing he'd done during his time in L.A. Art replied "divorce my third wife"

Could this be the one?

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Art "Golden Boy Aragon